Gopher74

Or maybe we can stop freaking out since we appear to be coming out of it having scored 19 runs vs right handers in a three game series vs the Cubs. Why is a month too short a time period to say that a player is great, but not too short to say that a player isn't a full time player?

I think it's both weird and annoying that you have to bring Sheets into it when he had absolutely nothing to do with the game today. But I guess, some people just have to sprinkle a little negativity everywhere they go. I've come to accept this.

Wait, what? Seriously? I'd like to hear how you think that the Marlins have better pitching than the Brewers. They've got a very average staff.

Agreed. And with this first game of the month, I think an 18 win month is absolutely within reach. Home St. Louis: 4 games 3-1 as the Cards are bound to come back to Earth L.A. Dodgers: 3 games 2-1 as the Dodgers simply aren't playing very good Atlanta: 3 games 2-1 Smotlz is out as are a couple other key pitchers. Houston: 2 games 1-1 Away Chicago: 1 game -This is an easy one at this point Houston: 3 games 2-1 Florida: 3 games 2-1 Boston: 3 games 1-2 Pittsburgh: 3 games 2-1 Washington: 4 games 3-1 Hell, I've got us at 19-10. I don't know why this is such a tough schedule that people are saying going under .500 is "optimistic". There are the Sox. That's it. Who else is such a great team?

After watching what happened and his reaction, him missing one start is great as far as I'm concerned. But I'd say right now based on what the team has said(namely Maddux) that he's about 75/25 on making his next start. In all honesty, if it's a reason to bring Bush back up and send Turnbow down, sit him. I mean, his next start is scheduled to be vs a young guy who's got an ERA over 7 for the Marlins. I'd rather throw Bush out there than hope Yo's alright.

It was pretty sick. I thin it was maybe Theriot who hit a ball down to first in between 1st and the pitcher. Prince fielded the ball and it was an in between play where YO wasn't likely to be there in time, so he kinda dove to tag Theriot who was diving himself. Meanwhile Gallardo was running over, jumped over them to get out of the way and he just brushed the runner which made him land funny and he really hyper extended his knee. It was ugly, and I can't believe he came back out to pitch. Absolutely amazing.

Yo's leaving everything up now. That could be a result of his knee bothering him. He hasn't gotten any pitches down since that injury.

Actually, I guess not. I thought it was his right knee that he had surgery on, but I guess it was his left.

I can't either. I seriously almost just threw up. This is very much like in the Packers season when KGB got his ankle rolled over. I was so sure that he was out for at least 6 weeks. The difference is, if we lose Yo we lose any hope. Hey, it's my Birthday in a couple days. There's not a damn thing in the world I'd want more than Yovani being alright.

I can't believe that he's back in the game right now. Yes, it was the same knee. For the love of god, just take him out. I don't care if we lose this game by 20 runs, if he's limping, get him out of there.

Oh God....I think I'm going to be sick. Just take him out and thank GOD that he can even walk on that knee. Seriously, I thought that was a torn ACL right off the bat, and now he's walking on it? For Christ Sakes, we deserve some good luck here.

He has had one bad year, certainly not "several". And Mike Rivera's not a good player.

Kendall's BA and OBP the last 7 years' .242/.301-clearly below average .295/.367- .271/.345- .319/.399 .325/.399 .283/.350 .266/.335 And the three seasons before that, he was over a .400 OBP each year, and well over .325 each year. Not sure which of those seasons I'd call below average, especially for a catcher. I'd take any of those seasons from him this year, and since the issue is what he's likely to do for us this year and what we need him to do for us this year, the SLG is secondary.

I don't know, what idiot would watch a game that was 19-5 until the final painful out? ::Meekly raises hand:: Yup. I did. I hate Hockey, have no more than a passing interest in the NBA right now(I'll start paying attention, soon, but honestly I don't even know if there were any games on tonight).

Yea, but Kendall's been fine through it all. He's of slender build, a huge plus I'm guessing for his longevity. But he's never caught fewer than 130 games in a season in which he's been healthy, and the only one he didn't is when he suffered that grotesque ankle injury.He's been over 140 Nine times. He's been over 150 4 times(With a 149 tossed in). I'd be more surprised if he only started 120 games than if he starts 145 this year.

I think if we deal him to and pay money, we're getting something back. IF it's just a dump, we don't get anything back. He's not exactly a risk, he's a known commodity. You think the Phillies would take his contract right now and be happy to have it?

Lilly was almost even with Suppan every year, while pitching in the AL. The lone exception is 2005. Suppan wasn't significantly better than Lilly from '03 to '06 besides 2005. Ok, I'm not going to argue over significantly better or not, but he was better. The point is, you argued that Lilly had been better, and he hadn't. Now you're arguing to what degree Suppan was better in the previous 4 years? The very simple fact of the matter is that Suppan got a very average deal, especially sine he was coming off four years of 4.12, 4.16, 4.19, and 3.58 ERA's. But again, who cares how much better he was? Lets say they were exactly even. Wouldn't that lend more weight to my argument that his deal was a average market value deal? Wouldn't the fact that he got the same money as another pitcher who at the very least was even with him the last 4 years mean that he didn't get this ridiculous deal that you keep suggesting he got? Again, Washburn, Silva, Meche, Lilly, Marquis(21/3 for a guy that was coming off a ERA over 6 which was my point initially). Jason Schmidt got over 15 per. Zito 126 over 7. You simply can't argue that Suppan's deal is over market value. I don't know why you keep saying $25M. Because that's what he's owed the next two years. or are we stuck with his remaining $25M committment Wait, so you don't know why I keep saying 25 million(despite the very basic fact that he's owed 25 over the next two seasons) and you use the exact same number that you're admonishing me for using? He has a $2M buyout for his 2011 team option. And do we know if the team he'll be on then has picked it up? In any event, it's pretty standard for the team that's trading him away to pick that up. So we can take the 2 million that you seem to think is going to make a world of difference. And again, 3 of those years, he was playing in front of a defense that probably took off .25 to .30 from his ERA over the average defense. Right, so when Suppan does something good, it's his great defense. But don't hesitate to throw him under the bus for his 4.62 ERA last year. So just using your logic, if his defense took .25 to .30 off from an average defense, then he must have "really" had a 4.10 or so ERA last year because the Brewers defense was terrible, right? Gotta work both ways.... I still think you are overrating Suppan If I seriously haven't gotten the point across that it's not what I'm "rating" him at this point, but what I believe he is "rated" based on other starting pitchers, then I give up. I don't think I could make it any clearly that the entire basis of my argument has been that he's a average pitcher who gives you 200 IP a year, and that is worth what he's going to make. You seem to think that because it's 2 years that's a bad thing. You point out what a pitcher would get on the FA market right now. Here's how it works, the shorter the deal, the higher annual salary. If the Mets would have signed Johan to a 1 year deal, it'd likely have been for a lot more. That's going to be a benefit to us in trading him, not a deterrent. I don't know why it's so hard for you to imagine that pitchers like Carlos Silva and Gil Meche will get 10-11 a year, or Washburn, but that Suppan won't get 12.5 for half the time(or wouldn't right now).

Of course I didn't mention Gallardo and Zito, those are obviously terrible comparisons. I'm not going to sit here and use Gallardo's 350K salary as a reason that Suppan makes too much to be traded -- I have a better idea of how MLB contracts work than that. You're right, using Zito doesn't really prove any point either. At the time, Zito was seen as a Cy Young caliber pitcher, which no one obviously ever thinks of Suppan being in the same ballpark as that, and as a result, Zito got Cy Young money. And of course, as we know, the Giants got screwed. Yet you used Harang as an example. Using Gallardo would be just as ridiculous. If Harang was a FA, he'd get a deal much bigger than Suppan's, thus rendering him totally irrelevant to this discussion. Oswalt makes more. So again, I don't know what those two really have to do with anything. It's also known by just about everyone that Oswalt took below market value in order to stay in Houston. So using those two to say Suppan's deal was above "average" market value? C'mon..... Vargas is just an example, although he could post a similar ERA to Suppan. But again, that's just an example. The Mets have other, better options than Claudio Vargas or Jeff Suppan. He's a bad example...which is my point. He's not likely to post an ERA very close to Suppan's, and he's not going to do it for anywhere near the number of innings. Saying that the Mets could get a pitcher who's ERA isn't going to be as good, and will likely only go about 60 pct of the innings doesn't make much of a point. Which is your opinion, and yet you've joined the discussion. I'm not dumb enough to think that Suppan is going to do this the rest of the year just because he had a bad night, I fully realize he'll have some good outings and bad ones yet this season, and probably end up around his career averages again. Really? Seems to me I "joined" the discussion weeks ago and someone's bumping the thread after a bad start to re-ignite an argument. And if you're "not dumb enough" using your words, why bring this up tonight? Ya think just maybe the 19-5 game may be fresh in people's minds and as such that may skew the discussion a touch? First of all, obviously I posted this long before we lost 19-5 tonight. Secondly, Lilly has, at worst, an even track record with Suppan over the course of his career, and almost all in the AL. Marquis didn't get "similar money." He got 3 years, $21 million. Meche definitely got a bad deal, Silva did too, even though he's been better than Suppan in the AL besides one horrible year. And this is why it's absolutely silly to look at career numbers over say the last 3-4 years of a players career when you're talking about the contract he received. From 03-06, the 4 seasons before we signed him, Suppan was unquestionably better than Lilly. He was also better than Silva...huh....this is kinda what I'm talking about. You can pick and chose what numbers you would like to use, but I think that GM's just might use the last 4 years over what a player did in the AL say 7 years ago over the previous 4 years. When you've got to go way out of your way to make a comparison, it's likely not one the GM's made. Meche and Silva getting bad deals doesn't mean a team is going to want Suppan No, but it means when you make these declarations about how his deal was above the market value, and yet all the other pitchers in his range got similar or bigger deals, that you're wrong....since that's what I brought those pitchers up for. To point out how you're simply incorrect in saying he got an above average market deal. 2 years, $27 million. Would you want us taking that on for Suppan next year if he were on another team? Because I wouldn't want the Brewers to take on that deal, most certainly does not mean that no other team will take him for the 2 years and 25 million he's owed the next two years.

He's actually had 4 good starts and 2 really, really bad ones, which is fine. But you know that his ERA for the year coming into tonight isn't a very telling stat 30 days into the season, just as much as his new 5.19 ERA doesn't really tell much 31 days into the season. And yet you chose tonight to come back with this argument? It's not even transparent, you come out and say "in light of this bad outing.....". A awful time to try and analyze a 4 year contract. But again, why I'm trying to convey here, when you say that he's never been worthy of the deal he got? It's just not even a little bit true. 200 IP with ERA's in the very low 4's and one in the mid 3's for 4 years before we signed him. I didn't like the deal and I've said that because I prefer power arms, but again, trying to argue that he's only worth it if he "morphs" into something he's never been? Anyway, I'll let this die now. I'll bring it back up after he has another good couple starts....which reminds me...I should have brought it up a couple days ago.....

Which is a awful idea and not likely a good time to make anywhere near an objective analysis. We signed him to about average market value when we signed him for 4 years, $42M. He was coming off two career years and was NLCS MVP in 2006, so his value may have even been a bit overinflated. That's not even a little true. Of course, when you lose 19-5 this is a real convenient time to bring it up, but his recent success was better than Ted Lilly's, MUCH better than Jason Marquis,Gil Meche, Carlos Silva....how many other pitchers that got similar money? So while you can complain about the deal being an above average market deal, it simply wasn't.Either of those is a salary for a low #1 or very high #2. $13M a year is less than what Harang makes in a year, it's in the ballpark of what Oswalt makes in a year. And think, Gallardo only makes 350K. Of course, it's always a VERY bad idea to try and compare a pitcher signed as a FA to one that's still in his 6 years of service time. I mean, would me pointing out Barry Zito prove any point whatsoever? That's the same logic as using what Prince makes right now and trying to argue seriously that Counsell doesn't deserve 5 times more. Obviously. But it's not even close to the same situation. Again, its' a REALLY bad idea to even bring this up after an outing like this as I'm sure opinions will be much different than they were when the team had won each of his games and his ERA was 3.48. They could put Vargas in the rotation for a fraction of the cost and probably lose very little over the course of the season] Again, a convenient argument on a night like tonight, but Vargas is not a guy who goes 200 IP, and is a much worse pitcher than Jeff Suppan. Manny Ramirez has been put on irrevocable waivers by the Red Sox in the past free for any taker in MVP-caliber years As have dozens and dozens of other star players. So what? There's a difference between a 2 year commitment in the off-season to a pitcher at 2 years and 25 million, and a slugger during the season at 20 million for the next 4-5 years(which is what it was the last time he was actually put on waivers.

Unless he pitches like he did his entire time with the Cards. I don't know where this myth comes from that he was never a quality pitcher. He was. Hell, his ERA coming into tonight was 3.48. I'll take 4 good starts and 1 bad from him.

I thought it was 130. I believe that's an incentive, not to pick up his option. I also believe the Brewers have the choice to pick up that option either way. Even if he plays just 45 games, if they want, they can choose to keep him.

Then you and I are watching two different hitters. Rickie's been hitting the ball pretty hard for the most part. Certainly more than 10 balls that he's centered on. Hell, 3 HR's, that bases loaded triple, the Liner to the SS last week with the bases juiced, and two balls in the extra inning games vs the Cardinals that he hit to about the warning track. That's 7 right there. I think he's had quite a few more...certainly more than 3.

Actually, Weeks, Prince, Hardy,Braun, Hart, Hall all have more starts than him. And this is kinda how he's always been.

So how exactly does a pitcher, specifically a pitcher like Stetter ever evolve beyond their current role? If Yost is so wrong for using him as a full inning guy, despite his success, and if you were the manager, you wouldn't, then he's just a loogy for his entire career, correct? I mean, they can never really move past that using this type of logic? Of course not. That's crazy. A large sample size starts as a small one, and in both the case of Stetter and McClung, they've thrown well enough for the most part to earn that chance to develop larger roles. How anyone can argue against Stetter being a pitcher who should start to draw full inning duty is beyond me. Likewise, with how well McClung has thrown since his last time out, and the potential he possess, I think he can be used as more than just a long man. I also like Dave Bush, yea, he's one of the 12 best pitchers, but I have a hard time getting too worked up about him being sent down. He's a guy who's actual production will never match his peripherals, which at one point had him as a frontline starter. I am rather intrigued by Seth McClung. He's looked really good since his first outing, and the Helms HR I lay on Rivera's feet as much as his. He's likely always going to be a guy who gets a lot of the plate, but he can usually get away with it if the hitter doesn't know what's coming. You throw him an 0-2 curve there, and the bat may end up over the dugout. I think in order for us to be a 90+ win team, we're going to need significant contributions from McClung or Turnbow and I feel better about getting them from McClung at the moment.