Gopher74

You know how you said those guys throw in the mid 90's? The guys we traded did not. The guys we traded are 11th man on a staff type.

That's exactly the player I want. Assuming that Skipworth isn't around, but I think it's highly unlikely that he is. It's all fine to go after the best player available, but when you've got the chance to add a guy who could be a key piece to their bullpen in the immediate future, adding that to a team that's close to contending is something that you can't pass up when you've got 5 more picks in the next 45. Hell, I'd like to see them go after Weatherford as well. Add two guys who could be back of the BP type guys for 09 would allow us to focus on other areas of this team first. Then you've still got 4 picks you can use for the BPA. Plus, it's not like you're settling for two loogy's. You're still getting two guys with exceptional stuff. Most starters who are drafted end up not making it, or in the bullpen anyway. I would also like to see Jemile Weeks if he lasts to the Supplemental round. We could draft him and Weatherford back to back after taking Fields earlier.

He's not Ozzie Smith? Is that the standard to which he should be measured? In that case, why is JJ Hardy up? He's most certainly not Ozzie Smith either. He's the greatest defensive shortstop of all time. But here's the thing, fine, you don't believe that all the scouts and everyone who's high on Escobar is right. I'm guessing that you haven't watched him play much, so you're basing this off of what? His minor league stats when he's been the youngest player or one of the youngest players in the league each year. And even then, last year he had a very good season in Single A, but Escobar has a lot of projectability to him. He's got a big frame and a nice swing. He's got a lot of room to add some power. Not Hardy power most likely(then again, we're still trying to figure out what the means) but good gap power, and the power to hit 10-15 HR's a year. So the point is, what reason could there possibly be for just dumping a guy simply to dump him at this point in time? I mean, what's the risk? You don't win quite as many games in the minors? So what? But if you move him and turns into the player that most feel he will, then we've just given a great young player away for absolutely no reason. I see no reason to trade a player who at the absolute worst is a Gold Glove caliber defensive Shortstop and who at best is a GG caliber SS who can hit .285/.335 with 30 DBL's and 10-15 HR's a year. And who will allow us to let Hardy leave and invest our resources into players who don't have such a capable backup. So what player couldn't? Not to mention he can demand all he wants, but that doesn't mean he's going to get it. The possibility for a player demanding a trade is an bad reason to pass on a player. In fact, I think the logic that he's in a multi-year deal means that he's got more leverage would actually be just the opposite. He'd have less leverage as he'd have no recourse. Anyway, I really don't why we should take that into consideration either way. (combined consecutive posts -1992)

I didn't think he had a no-trade this year. I thought last year he had a limited no trade and that if he was traded it voided his option year, but I thought this year that he had nothing.

Yes, of course if we wait to trade him that long the package is going to be much lower. I don't agree at all though that Prince Fielder+ a year of comp picks is better than what we'd get for Prince at that point. I mean, unless that year of him brings you a WS ring. Look at what teams get for superstars the year before they hit the market? The bidding war for Johan, what we got for Lee alone would be somewhat close to that. I think you can still get a lot for Prince at that point, but the problem is that you're right, you're not going to get AS much, and that we're still not fixing the SP'ing problem right now, and you're wasting years of Gamel and or LaPorta. Actually they don't. Lowe, Penny, and Schmidt are all going to be FA's by the end of next year with Lowe a FA this year and Penny a potential FA this year. So you're left with Bills and Kudora, but you're trading away Kudora here. Anyway, I was the one who came up with the Dodgers trade, but for whatever reason, Loney escaped me at the moment. Knowing they have him, I don't see why they'd trade for Prince when it'd mean losing Kershaw or Billingsley. Loney's a Derek Lee type player in that he'll be a future GG at 1st and could easily turn into a .285/.390 30/100 type player. And if we did make this deal, I'd rather have Kershaw than Bills. I love Billingsley, but I think Kershaw's got the higher upside and is very close to reaching it. I wouldn't be upset with either, but you also would get Kershaw for an additional 3 years. So if the Dodgers didn't have, or didn't want Loney, or could move him to the OF, I'd rather just trade for Broxton and one of those two, preferably Kershaw over Soria and Bills. (combined consecutive posts -1992)

You're the first person who's brought up Rickie Weeks, so I don't know why you'd lead off by saying that you're glad you're not the only one who thinks like this. 2nd-Weeks OBP was also .385 last year as a leadoff hitter, top 5 in baseball. Simply throwing out one stat and saying, "see, he was bad" is a bad way to make an argument and a worse way to run an organization. Rickie Weeks is going to be a huge part of us making a run either way, if we do, or if we don't. And Rickie Weeks upside is far more than that of Dan Uggla. Also, Weeks and Fielder is overkill, big overkill for this trade. I think Peavy, Webb, Santana, guys like that are certainly more valuable than a 50 HR hitter. Especially when you're talking about post-season play. In the post-season a pitcher is far, far more important and valuable than just about any position player. A true ace can get you 3 wins in a 7 game series. As for Cain, I guess this is like Kershaw in that we simply don't agree, but I certainly don't agree with you on Cain. He's 23 years old, has a career 3.78 ERA over 80 starts. He's thrown 195 innings on average the last 2 years, and struck out 179 and 163 in 32 and 31 starts. Yea, he doesn't have a great FB ratio, but Sheets hasn't either, especially in 04-06. He was a pretty good pitcher himself during that time. And then there's the fact that Cain's got a lot of upside still and I think that Lincecum and Cain for Prince would be anything but us overpaying. Overall, this is kinda right along with the type of deal I've been thinking about. I know you and I talked about another deal that you didn't like which was Clayton Kershaw+Johnathan Broxton+Andy LaRoche for Prince Fielder and 2 prospects in the 6-12 type range. But I would definitely love a deal like this. You bring in 2 very, very good young power pitchers, and while you lose Prince, you still have a very able 1st basemen coming up behind him in LaPorta or Gamel. I'd go with Gamel because he's a lefty and because he can play very good defense at 1st most likely. But as others have said, the Giants likely wouldn't make a deal giving up both of those young pitchers. Maybe you could expand it to be Prince/Hardy/Prospect for Lincecum/Cain/Vizquel. You lose your 1st and SS, but you've got a guy who can close the gap until Escobar is ready at Short, and you've got someone who can replace your 1B and you get 2 frontline guy's back. That'd be a deal you'd almost have to make. (combined consecutive posts -1992)

Soria's a very good big league closer for the Royal's. He's more certainly not a Single A guy. If Gag-me went with and we got a Single A player with a high ceiling, yes. Really? We're going with the Sophomoric play on names? I have to say, I find the "Scrubs", "Sewers", "Gag-me", "Viqueen" nicknames of the world to be uninspired and just a bit.... beneath us. In any event, as related to Gange, Gange's throwing the ball well. He needs to work on pitch selection and he needs to keep the ball down a bit more, but he's also run into a lot of bad luck. Gange's fastball looked fantastic his last time out, and is a good bet to straighten it out and be a valuable BP arm. As for the question of the thread, no, I absolutely would not. I feel that the Brewers have the ability to go out and get a guy who could close games this year or next in Matt Fields this year in the draft, and they've got the ability to get another guy later on in Aaron Weatherford who could also be a late inning guy. Frankly, I'd love to and think this team should try to draft both players. I understand they don't have the ceiling and potential future impact that other guys at those spots could be, but I think solidifying the back of your BP for the next 5+ years would be a huge thing for this team, and would allow them to allocate their resources and energy to more pressing positions. But even if we couldn't get something nice in the draft to solve this issue, I simply do not want to see us give up a guy who could be a 45 HR guy for a pitcher who is only going to pitch one inning 70 times a year. Honestly, if we're trading either of our Mat(t)'s to KC, I'd want Greinke in return over anyone else, and that's no longer likely an option. So...just don't think it's a wise course of action....

when they lose Sheets, they won't have adequate pitching. Gallardo is a great #2, but would be a very marginal #1 long-term. That would make for some fun games, but not very balanced. You're presenting these as facts when they're absolutely anything but. Now Gallardo hasn't done enough to show that he's absolutely going to be a front line ace, but to say that he's going to be a marginal one is absolutely unfounded. Everything in his minor leaguer career, and his short big league career suggest that he's a player who at the bare minimum has shown the ceiling to be a very solid ace on a team. As for Sheets, "when"? I think you mean "if". There is absolutely no guarantee that Sheets is gone, and if anything, this FA class makes the likelihood that Ben Sheets is back next year much higher. Bottom line is that with Sheets gone, they need pitching. Again, IF he's gone. There's still this myth that the Brewers are such a poor team, and that they don't have any money. They certainly can't afford to spend 150 million a year, but this is a team that's making a lot of money on their own, and is getting a very, very big chunk from MLB. Sheets has some pretty strong ties to the community in Milwaukee, has expressed an interest in staying in Milwaukee, and the Brewers clearly need him. Not to mention Mark A has probably said 20 times over the years that if an ace was available to the Brewers for 15+ million that they'd have no problem going out and paying for him. Now you're telling me they're not going to make an effort to pay 4 or so million more than he's making right now to keep the one they have? Especially when they had record profits last year, a number that should be exceeded this year? You saying that Sheets IS gone is almost as wrong as me saying that Sheets WILL be here next year. The Brewers will try to bring Sheets back next year, and if they don't, they're absolutely going to go after a pitcher of Derek Lowe's talent level. Maybe even a guy like Jon Garland or making a trade for Javier Vasquez, someone along those lines. They likely won't sign one of the Lackey, CC's, Burnett or someone in that group, but they could sign one of those pitchers in that first group, or even a guy like Oliver Perez.

Just curious, what makes you think you're being realistic? I frankly can't stand when someone has a differing opinion and they tell someone else to be "realistic". I've hyet to see someone make a genuine argument they didn't feel was "realistic". Impressive? Really? I think he looks quite awkward out there, and he turned a single into a triple again today. "Again" today? It's awfully convenient to say "hey, he made ANOTHER bad play today"...regardless of weather he'd actually done it before. I don't recall the other times he's done this. Braun has been rather impressive out in LF. There have been a couple Line Drives hit right at him that he's taken a couple mis-steps on, but I think everyone's expecting such poor defense out of him that they're forming their opinion before they allow themselves to form an objective opinion. Braun's made some huge throws out there, and he's made some great plays. He plays it a big too safe sometimes or had early on by playing deep and allowing balls to bounce in front of him. But honestly, if we're going to use one example to say that a guy isn't a good OF'er because he dove for a ball he didn't come up with and it went for a triple, then I believe every single OF'er who's played for any period of time in the OF would have those very same concerns.

Again the Brewers will need a yearly influx of cheap talent so they can afford to hang onto to the key core of players they already have. Mark A has deep pockets, but I highly doubt he'll let the team operate so it's losing money. Well, you're certainly right, and I agree with you, but the Brewers are a REAL long way away from losing money. Put it this way. They're payroll this year would have to be nearly 130 to lose money based on what they made last year. That's nitpicking though. I fully agree. Anytime you don't want to gut your entire minor league system you MUST be overvaluing your farm system. How about the fact that Gamel and LaPorta are putting up numbers unlike anyone else has put up in AA in this organization? Even Braun? How about the fact that we are going to lose a couple players, and dealing them now is just going to make that fall more dramatic when we do, whereas with them, we could either maintain or improve. I think the big difference is that AAA has a lot of pitchers have seen the majors, unlike AA, and that may be a better measuring tool for how well he will hit. The pitchers might not be a whole lot better, but I think major league experience makes them a bit more difficult to hit. Does that make sense? Sure it does. I may not agree with it, but it makes some sense. My inclination would be that AA pitchers are more talented on average, but AAA pitchers pitch more like big league pitchers as they're usually pitchers who've pitched in the bigs, or who've spent several years in AAA and just simply aren't quite talented enough to stick. So it makes sense, I just don't agree with it...but again, I can see that side of it. I think you have to lowe his value quite a bit, especially since we will have to make room for him by getting rid of someone. You cant have Braun, Hart, Laporta and Gamel playing on the same team if they are all outfielders. Absolutely. I still think though that his value is extremely high either way. Not to mention, if he must switch, you could move him to 1st where he very likely would end up being a VERY good defensive 1st basemen making Prince a bit more expendable. In any event, he's still a player who's value is through the roof. Hopefully though the Brewers can be pleasantly surprised for once and have a player actually develop defensively because as you said, if he can stick at 3rd we're going to be in fantastic shape. Not to get too far ahead of things, but having LaPora, Braun, Hart, Prince, Gamel, Weeks and Hardy or Hall all in one lineup is going to be huge. I don't want to jump the gun, but that lineup could very easily be the best lineup in baseball. Plus another big advantage of that would be you'd have a lineup that'd be locked up for a long time save for Prince and you could allocate more resources to pitching starting with this draft now in which I hope we get Weatherford and Fields, and in the future when we can take any other possible top prospects and maybe deal them. In any event, these two make for a lot of very exciting possibilities.

I frankly think that Prince will, or at least that there is a very good chance as Mark A has all but assured us that they would sign Prince. I just hope that he listens to reason and allows Melvin to deal Prince before giving him a Mo Vaughn type deal that we regret for the duration of Braun's deal and our next wave of youngster's deal. I'd so much rather deal Prince to the Yankee's, or the Tigers for Bonderman and Procello, or whoever for a COUPLE good power pitchers. Power pitchers win in the post-season. Manny Parra looked like he's ready to start going after hitters, and he's certainly got the pure stuff to be that frontline guy, I'm just not convinced just yet. And by the way, "looks like" comes from one very good start that ended up spanning 6 1/3 vs an average team, and a poor offensive team and then a couple innings vs a Cards team on the decline. So yea, we need a couple guys who can just overpower you. Sheets is probably 75/25 to be gone, Yo's one, and Manny MAY be 2. But again, dealing Prince when he's got 3 years left could get you BIG time power pitchers. How about Prince to the Rays for Kazmir? They've got how many good arms coming up, they're getting ready to compete, and you get 4 of Prince for 4 of Kazmir. I'd also want soemone like Johnny Gomes, but still. Man, you opened a can or worms here. I really don't want to get into an argument, so I'll let you take the brunt of it, but I absolutely agree. In my mind, I just don't have any doubt that Rickie's going to hit. This year has made me almost more confident because he's actually hitting the ball hard a good pct of the time. Get Rickie now for 6 years at 35 million and then a couple options years at 12 million, team options and when he goes Carlos Beltran on us we're going to be just giddy. (combined consecutive posts --1992)

I certainly wouldn't. I'd rather trade Prince then trade BOTH of them. Those two are going to have a lot of say about the Brewers being competitive in the future.

It's really not. Some have speculated that the deal was signed simply so that he'd be easier to deal. So that a team wasn't getting a 4 month rental. Instead they're getting a player for 3 and a half years....if they end up dealing him.

I love Prince, but I think gopher's hypothetical Fielder (and maybe a lower prospect) for Kershaw, Broxton, LaRoche deal would make this team better. You get another potential ace pitcher, a potential future closer, and a third baseman who has a terrific OBP. It fits our needs really well, future closer, top-end lefty pitcher, and high OBP guy. For the life of me I simply can't understand why the Dodgers don't like LaRoche and why they haven't given him a chance yet. I believe he's banged up right now, but all the same. And one thing I should make clear, the Brewers are going to have to send something back. Something most likely substantial in terms of prospects. Maybe a guy like Brent Brewer. Maybe Cole Gillispie, Cain, someone in that area. Prince is great, but I have to think that Kershaw, Broxton and LaRoche is worth more than Prince. Now none of those guys will match Prince's best numbers but it frees us up financially in the future as well. I dont think we will see Prince traded though because of the backlash it will have with fans, especially this early when we still control him for a few more years. That's exactly it. Prince won't be traded and most likely they'll lock him up long term, but I wish they would. And no, Gamel or LaPorta may not equal Prince's numbers, but they could come close with Gamel IMO being a .315/.400 type hitter with 30-35 HR's and LaPorta a .285/.410 guy with 40+ HR's. The difference is small enough that the other factors make it so obvious to me. But Mark A will IMO lock Prince up to a deal that he probably shouldn't. With a rotation of Yo, Kershaw, Parra, Suppan, Villy, with the possibility of keeping Sheets because we arent concerned with locking Prince up. And Broxton with other in the bullpen looks nice on paper to me. Man, that rotation could be just filthy. Lets not forget, Parra could be a number 2. That'd be 3 aces(assuming we kept sheets which I believe we would) and a number 2 and a 3 potentially. Ah, it's a unrealistic scenario, but a fun one all the same. As soon as Kershaw comes up and starts dominating, that's no longer going to be realistic.

I'm curious where you got this from? I've never heard anything like this. The Giants trading Liriano was an awful move. He was also a throw-in in the deal and an afterthought. Not to mention Liriano's a much bigger pitcher than Lincecum. I think that's an after the fact type comparison and I don't recall the Giants ever saying anything about Liriano's delivery when they dealt him or since.

Again, wasn't my question. I just don't understand why you're so against a poster asking a simple question. And by the way, it wasn't just Hall for Dunn. It was Hall and a prospect for Dunn, which depending on the Prospect could be very close to getting a deal done since Dunn's going to be gone after this year. Either way, this is how many posts arguing the merits of the question, and to that end, yes, I would rather have Adam Dunn in this lineup than Bill Hall, but not given the downgrade of defense.

Except that the Brewers trainers have said the same thing. I'd be a lot better if it wasn't his drive leg which requires a lot more stability and strength, but all the same, if he can come back, more power to him. We desperately need him if we're going to do anything in the playoffs. He's going to have a very small impact on us getting there, but just the idea of him coming back could give this team a boost. But once we get to a short series, we're dead in the water if we run out Sheets, Suppan and whoever. Now Sheets, Gallardo and Suppan is a different story.

My feelings exactly. There's a certain added frustration to all the "told you so's"(not from here in particular) regarding the Brewers pitching which went from very good to very poor with one awkward landing by our most important player in the organization. With Sheeter and Yo heading the rotation Bush, Parra and Villy can figure it out and work through it on their own. With him out, you're hopes now lie upon those three developing or turning it around very quickly and getting about 500 IP out of those three at at least league average levels. That's a tall order.

Yes. Exactly. I mean, I wouldn't make that assertion as I haven't actually watched LaPorta play much, but I do know there's a tick more to being a complete hitter than simply BB/K ratio. I mean, Pat Burell comes to mind(or came to mind). He's clearly gone back to that player he used to be by going the other way more, but the last couple years he's been a dead pull hitter with a good BB/K ratio. Being able to go the other way with balls is the difference between being a great power hitter, and a great HITTER. It's also what's made the 07 Prince Fielder infinitely better than the 08 Fielder. While coaches like LaPorta's knowledge of the strike zone - he has 18 walks and only 21 strikeouts - they said he has not learned to use the entire field. Guerrero said LaPorta is more of a power-alleys hitter, while Braun took more shots at the opposite field. Can we really argue at this point, even if we believe it so, that Braun's not the more polished hitter, or wasn't just two years ago as compared to LaPorta right now? I refer back to a Jim Callis comment when asked if Matt LaPorta may end up having more power than Ryan Braun. "Sure, but I wouldn't say that too loud just yet". Less we forget the guy set a record for SLG pct among rookies?

Right...I'm just saying what else would he do? If he goes there, he has to go for 3 years. In his post he says, "not necessarily for 3 years".

What other choice does he have? If he goes to FSU, he's going for 3.

You're telling me we could have had Cordier over Gallardo? Dang..sure missed out on that one!

First of all, despite your vehement objections, the Giants have already talked about trading Lincecum showing that he's not nearly as untouchable as you claim. Second, why anyone would compare the Giants and Brewers chances to contend this year is beyond me, but 6 games most certainly does not change the directions the Brewers are heading, at least(because I don't want to argue about it) the direction their front office is going to take. I have to say, someone who apologizes to me while telling me "how it really is" ranks right up there on my list of pet peeves. No, our pitching isn't as good as it was with Yo. Clearly. Everyone moves up a notch. But we're playing good defense, our offense will clearly come around and which team in this division has great pitching? Did the Phillies have great pitching last year? Declaring this team dead at this point because they lost Yo, and when they've got pitchers in Parra and Villy who at least have the potential to improve a great deal is woefully premature in my opinion. I'm also not sure why anyone thinks that "Bush needs to go". Not sure how many teams have a better number 5 than Dave Bush. He's certainly not the problem.

Don't know. Didn't ask the question. Just pointing out what was clearly stated in the initial post. But I guess my next point would be that nobody here can actually make trades, so if you want to ask what's the point? What's the point of this entire forum? What's the point of having a Transaction Rumors/Proposals? To gauge interest and have something to talk about. That's all this was. But the way, if you weren't "trying to be a jerk", wouldn't you have left that last line out? Was your point not made already without the sarcasm?

It's hard to do, the earlier you deal a player like Prince, the more likely that becomes. If for instance you can get a guy like Kershaw+Broxton+LaRoche for Prince and a prospect, then slide LaPorta or Gamel into 3rd, I think this team is significantly better for both the short term and the long term. Obviously have a guy who can fill in like Gamel or LaPorta is huge in this equation. I actually think that Kershaw and Broxton would be enough to get Prince, but if we tossed in a good prospect(a 6-12 type), then perhaps LaRoche. Anyway, just being able to get another young prospect who could be a frontline guy, even if we just got that and we could replace Prince with a .285/.395 and 30 HR a year guy in either LaPorta or Gamel...which frankly is on the low end, I think we'd be a better team for it. The problem is I think this team is going to re-sign Prince. I think Mark A feels as though he has to re-sign Prince, and that's going to cost us other players that we can less afford to lose. For starters, Ben Sheets.