Gopher74

Cleveland is really bad. Outside of Sabathia they have nothing that would help this team as much as a rolling Turnbow would. I'm still waiting for the blue font to come out. The Indians are one of the best teams in all of baseball and you can't think of anyone other than CC Sabathia that would help this team? How about any of their starting pitchers? How about Fausto Carmona, one of the best young arms in the game, a younger version of CC? How about Westbrook a nice GB type pitcher? How about Lee a consistent middle of the rotation type starter? Blake - Id much rather have Hall. Peralta - Id much rather have Hardy and then id rather have Escobar. Peralta strikes out at too high of a rate. Jason Kendall is handling our pitching staff very well and seems to have the respect of the entire team. Ill take a very good baseball team with excellent chemistry any day. I think that is what we have. First of all, just because we've got some good players at the positions some of their players play doesn't mean that we wouldn't want them. I mean, we've got Prince Fielder, but I'd sure as hell take Mark Teixiera for Derrick Turnbow. No the problem with this isn't that they wouldn't be good enough to make our team, the problem is that to even think that we could get Peralta for Turnbow is incredibly unrealistic. But just for the sake of argument. Why wouldn't you take him over Hardy? He's a better offensive player, he's the same age, he's at the same point in his service time. I think that many would rate him as a superior player to Hardy...certainly offensively. And to then say you'd take Escobar over him just wreeks of absolute homerism. There's just no way. Peralta's a very good young SS. And no, I wouldn't take Blake over Hall because of age and their contract, but I'd sure "take" Blake. He can play several different positions and is a good bet to give you at least equal to what Hall would. Victor Martinez over Jason Kendall is simply not even a comparison. Yes, Kendall's handling the staff well, but V-mart is one of the games best catchers and would likely be our number 3-4 or 5 hitter(he'd fit in nicely with Prince and Braun). A switch hitting catcher with a career .303/.373 who hits for good power? Man....if we really wanted him though, it'd be Braun, Hart, Prince..something along those lines. So to say you wouldn't want him for Turnbow? So now we're at at least 4 of their 5 starting pitchers(I'd take Byrd as well), V-mart, Garko, Hafner, Peralta, Blake, Sizemore...I'd also take that young 2nd basemen they've got who looks a lot like a more mature Alcides Escobar. And they've got some great relievers in Betencourt, Perez, Kobyashi, and a couple others. Honestly, I don't know why exactly you seem to think that the Indians are not a good team, but it could definitely be argued that they're better in every single aspect of the game than the Brewers. Personally, I like our lineup a LITTLE better, but Hafner, V-Mart, Sizemore, and Peralta compare very favorable to Braun, Prince, Hart and Hardy. That team was very nearly the WS Champs last year, so they're pretty damn good.

AS much as I like Derrick Turnbow, all of those suggestions are entirely too much for him. Perhaps if we packaged a Tony Gwynn Jr a another guy then maybe, but even then, what use would they have for Gwynn with Sizemore unless they wanted to use him in the corner? And I think your last line means you're being sarcastic, but Phillips just hadn't done much, and a lot of teams have cut Branyon, so you can't hold that against them.

Edit-Wow...sorry for the length. I guess I get talking Brewers and I just ramble on! Anyway, every word of it is pure genius, so...you're welcome..http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif Yes, I am pretty bleak about the 2009 staff too. Assuming, which I do, that Sheets is unsignable. Yo I think will develop into a very good 2 or 3. Para and Villy, you correctly point out we don't know about. If I'm speculating intelligently (hopefully) that Parra could be a good 2 or a good 3. Villy looks like a average 4 or good 5 to me. First of all, why would Sheets be unsignable? We've certainly got the resources to sign him, he's said his preference would be to play in Milwaukee, and given the FA market, it's almost a perfect storm for the Brewers to be able to sign him since there are going to be other more highly sought after starting pitchers. I've gone over all this before, and maybe even already in this thread, but the Brewers are making a lot of money. They could and likely will be at 100 million within the next couple years. Right now, they're only spending about 20 million dollars of their own money on the payroll. So of all the money they make with ticket sales, merchandising, advertising, sponsorships, they're only putting 20 million of that into the team which is why it's easy to see how they made 50 million net last year. I also look to the fact that Mark A has said ever year here that if that "ace" pitcher became available he'd gladly be willing to spend the 15 million dollars to sign him. This leads me to believe that they're not going to let Sheets go without a fight when they've already got that ace. As for Gallardo and Parra, I think saying that Gallardo may be a 2 or 3 is selling him a bit short. You almost have to try and be pessimistic at this point to think of Gallardo as a possible number 3 starterhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif I agree that Parra's stuff is a little bit better as a lefty throwing 94-97 with four pitches that he can command(normally) is a potential true ace, but Gallardo's poise and command make him the type that could exceed the number that his stuff puts him at, which is a number 2. And Villanueva to me is much more than an average 4 or 5. That's what Dave Bush is. Villy's got such a great change and his breaking ball has had so much more movement this year I think people get caught up in velocity and say that he's a 4 or 5. He's pitched really well for the most part thus far, but has just been the reciepiant of bad luck to a degree this year. I was at his Cincy game when he gave up that 2 run Hr and for the first 5 innings, he had the Reds so off balance. I see his ceiling as being significantly higher than a 5...more like a number 3. And of course, Gallardo, Parra and Villy being 1's, 2's and 3's next year is assuming everything goes right, but that's my point. When we've got so much potential, you can't say a full year ahead of time that it looks so bleak. That kind of uncertainty is a red flag if I'm a GM. And if I were a GM I'd be trying mightily to improve my starters. Now I'd take three startegies: a) desparately searching for Sheets money in a forlorn hope we sign him b) looking into a Young/Garza type off season trade c) concentrating my extra draft choices on pitching I guess my issue is that you seem to equate uncertainty with certain disaster sometimes. Uncertain isn't always a bad thing. I'd rather be uncertain about how good Parra can be than have a guy like Bush who I'm certain about. And I don't disagree with those approaches. I think we're going to at least look into A and C and maybe B. Which again, was my point all along. I think we'll fix it and supplement what we have next year. By the by, I believe that we go after a high cieling toolsy type player with that 16th pick, and then after a couple college pitchers who could and should move quickly as well as a prep pitcher or two with a big arm, and then a catcher. By the way, I'd definitely be interested in a Tim Lincecum/Matt Cain for Corey Hart type deal next off-season. Yes, it'd be a lot to give up, but to get that frontline starter who's young and still cheap I'd give up Hart. Especially with Matt LaPorta on the way to take his place. I would hate to see Corey go though. I can't see us being a major player on the free agent market. Seeing that Lowe (who I don't believe is as good as Sheets) is going to command significantly more money than Suppan, I can't see the Crew being a player. Pena? I'm hoping; it'd be great, but I'm not holding my breath. I loved the Torres/Riske pick up. McClung...I'm hoping he gets cut this week, so we differ there. I think if we lose Ben Sheets, we're definitely going to try and sign a good solid big league pitcher to a 3-4 year deal. Perhaps we sign a guy like Jon Garland who's a FA. Basically a better version of Jeff Suppan. If you do that, then with the progress you can hope/expect out of your young arms, you may end up being at least as good as you were with Sheets, and maybe even better. Plus, I think you can get him for 4 years 42 million in this market. The same type of deal you got Suppan for even though he's better simply because it's such a deep FA class. I also think that he's the type that in his first year in the NL could see a big time jump in production. He's averaged 32.5 starts roughly the last 6 years, and has a career ERA of 4.42 in the AL. Like I said, he'd be a much better version of Jeff Suppan, who I think is as good as gone this off-season giving the Brewers that much more room. How about this for a dream scenario. We re-sign Sheets for 4/65, trade Suppan, and then sign Garland for 3/33? Sure, that's very unlikely, but it goes back to my point. Melvin's done a fantastic job of putting this team together. He'll figure something out. Oh, and finally, to conclude my novel, I see why you don't like McClung, but look at what he did yesterday? The key is him being able to do that consistently. Did you see that curve he threw to Lohse on the inside corner of the plate? It looked like a damn boomerang. He can be as nasty as just about any pitcher I've ever watched when he's going right...which of course is the problem because he can't do that consistently, but he's good enough that I think you try and hold onto him and hope he becomes a Bobby Jenks type.

Well see. I happen to think that Vargas should have made the team over him in the 1st place, was then a little bit convinced when I saw just how incredibly he pure stuff was in his first outing of the year, then after his second last one was frustrated, and now after this very last one am back to the "they have to keep this guy" line of though. They could just send Parra down, wait until someone else has to go on the DL which is only a matter of time and hang onto McClung. Or send Bush down. That might be the best thing for him. But McClung's got Bobby Jenks type stuff. Not the Bobby Jenks right now who's throwing only 92-93, but the one that threw 99 and was unhittable. If you can develop that or have any chance to, it's worth it to send down a guy like Bush or Parra despite the fact that they're better for the team in the here and now.

I'm not arguing that he had an extended major league shot, but that between the majors and the high minors, and even spring training, the team gave him ample opportunities to demonstrate that he could put things together. The team saw him up close for two years in AAA, after two years in AA, with the brief Milwaukee appearance plus spring training games, and obviously didn't like what it saw. See, I understand all of this, but when the Brewers then go and keep a guy like Seth McClung on their big league roster when he's done all of the same things...struggled with the same issues year after year, it just doesn't make sense to me why they'd give up on such an incredibly talented young reliever when their biggest organizational weakness may be developing relief pitchers. The guy has am arm that may be better than McClung or Turnbow's. Yea, you keep a guy like Anderson on the 40 man, but you let a guy who throws 100 MPH with some nasty movement go without getting anything in return? Also, it was mentioned in here that he was a lefty I believe. Of course this probably just went un-noticed, or was mis-spoken, but he clearly is not. If he were, I can promise that he'd have been given more chances. Again, such a great arm, and with the Brewers obvious willingness to stick with pitchers with great stuff, but control issues, it just doesn't make sense that they'd let him go. But, oh well. Time marches on, and they've done so much more right than wrong.

Brantley is a viable CF, Cain is a viable CF and I really think you are selling Darren Ford short. At the end of the season I believe Darren will be a top 10 prospect in the system. He just makes more things happen on the diamond than the other guys. Agent, I'm just curious, but do you represent those players as well? And I think they're all nice prospects. Cain is the guy the Brewers and scouts seem to think can develop into a real five tool player, but I also think as he fills out he's more likely going to be a corner OF'er. Brantley's not a CF'er in the minors, so I think to say he's a viable big league CF'er is a bit of a stretch. And Darren Ford's obviously got some very impressive skills, and I hope you're right on that front. It'd be fantastic to get a real viable leadoff option up to the big leagues, especially since I think that Rickie could be a better number 2-3-4-5 hitter than leadoff(I think it take so much of his aggressiveness away). I do have to say that it's a little bit odd that in the same post you rail against scouting reports and prospect rankings, you say that by the end of the year Ford will rank as one of their top 10.

I dont like scouwting services because they are a business. So is being an agent. It's all a business. I don't understand why that means that they wouldn't be accurate however. In any event, I don't think anyone's relying solely on any scouting reports. All im saying as an agent, if Iwere to depend on the reports PG has to run my business I would be shut down within a year. You have to do your own talent analysis or you're a dead man as an agent. Right, but we're not agents. We're just fans talking about how some of our prospects may shake out over the long haul. Nothing more, nothing less. Thats not even my point here. Obviously (I hope) Im not an idiot. Brewer profiles great in CF and Im not denying that at all. The only thing I am saying is the Brewers have ZERO motivation to move him there based on what they paid Brent to play ss and the org. depth in the system. No...they may not want to move him, but their motivation may be out of necessity. They may be forced to move him if he doesn't improve dramatically at short stop. And I think you've got the impression that we're worried about stats on here. No, we're not. At least I'm not. But stats do tell us something. If a guy has an error once ever 3 games at the most important defensive position in front of the plate, that's not a real encouraging sign, that's all. And of course Im totally biased towards Brent but from a practical sense if a KID A has a chance to play SS in the bigs, wouldnt you want to keep him there as long as possible until he fails completely? I don't think we're saying they should move him right now, we're simply talking about the chances he'll end up sticking at short for the duration. It's not like he's going to play CF with Haydel in WV or Ford in Brevard so again where are they going to play him?? Why wouldn't he? I think we can all agree he's a better looking prospect by a fairly substantial margin than those two. The Brewers wouldn't have held Justin Upton back because they had Tony Gwynn in their minor league system at the same level. Just because someone currently plays the position doesn't mean that another player can't be moved there.

Significantly. Right now both teams have been given a break for the last couple years. I don't know the specifics, but the moral of the story is those two organizations have been granted a break by MLB for the last maybe 2 years and will for another year I think. After that they're going to have to start paying back out additional money to what they're already paying. How Selig worked the last CBA was really a stroke of genius. Big Market teams are going to be paying out more money progressively through the next several years. And the union's not likely to object to it while you've got the Kansas City's, Milwaukee's and other smaller to mid market teams signing players and shelling out money in addition to the large market teams. These players don't exist. I mean really either a pitcher is healthy and still good and teams sign them themselves or they have an injury history or are on a downward trend and teams spend too much to get them. If it were so easy as to just give some sure thing 200+ IP stud $15M I'd say things would be much easier. We will not get a pitcher as good as Sheets as a FA because pitchers who are that good almost never go to FA and when they do they ask for contracts that are way too risky. I'd say this is right 9 years out of 10, but this year may be the exception to that rule. Unless there are several FA's re-signed during this season, next years FA class offers a great deal of pitching talent. In fact, I think this may be the one thing that can allow for the Brewers to have a chance at re-signing Sheets. He's going to be the 3rd to 5th best pitcher on the market. A guy like an AJ Burnett, Brad Penny, or John Lackey are all in the Sheets league. Lackey to me should be a 17-20 million dollar a year pitcher as he is exactly what is mentioned when you said those types don't exist for the reasons you gave. And don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. A couple examples doesn't disprove the rule, however this year may be the exception. If we can't re-sign Sheets, I'd say we go after a guy like AJ Burnett. Yes, it could really hurt us if we sign a guy like Burnett to a 3-4 year 15-17 million dollar deal, but to me, that's just the risk we're going to have to take to get a guy who's a true power pitcher and who can dominate teams. If we don't, we're going to be in a lot of trouble come playoff time. Burnett's had injury concerns as well, I understand this, but he's the type of pitcher who I believe is going to all the sudden have it click and go from a 3.50 type ERA to a 3.00 for a few year stretch. I think he'd be a great guy to take a risk on. Again, this is assuming that we don't re-sign Sheets.

I see what you're saying with the Cordero situation, but this is so much more important that I think Melvin has to realize that. I think the Brewers could be a playoff team next year without him. Just saying it's possible if things work right, maybe Weaver sticks around and has a season like he had for the Dodgers, whatever. But the issue then becomes the playoffs, which should be our main concern right now. Winning playoff series..as far as how we assemble a roster. I do not see how we could win a playoff series without that true power arm at the top of our rotation along with Yo. I think Yo's going to develop into a very good one, but I honestly feel as though Parra's the better bet to be a true quote-unquote ace because of his pure stuff. It wasn't long ago that everyone called Gallardo a number 2...a Mike Mussina type pitcher. I think that he's so poised that people forget that while he's got good stuff, it doesn't quite reach the ace status to me while Parra's may..although he's got little chance to reach that status just as most pitchers coming up are unlikely to, even with great stuff. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, we've got to re-sign Sheets, and I could go into my whole rant about how much money the Brewers now have coming in(should be 65 right off the top next year from MLB) that they can afford to re-sign him from a financial standpoint, and how they absolutely have to from a competitive standpoint. I think it'll come down to how much faith do the Brewers have in him maintaining his health? Looking at it from the casual fans perspective, you'd say that he doesn't have much chance, but looking at it logically, he's had no real arm or shoulder injuries. I think at this point, it's a matter of luck and he's no more an injury risk than anyone else.

1-I guess maybe a little bit..but it's not like it's been that over the top save for the Chicago game. 20-15-12-23-13-19 That's not the most efficient, but it's also really not that bad. 2-He's thrown 69 strikes out of 92 pitches. That's a pretty dang good rate of strikes. Again, that's without the Chicago game, but even in that game he threw 16 Sr in 31 pitches. Bad, but not totally awful. 3-Others have touched on this one, so I'll just say that I don't really agree. 4-Yea, he's a slob, but he's always been one. I think he's just eccentric. And if he was poor, and not a pro ball player, he'd be weird. But, he is what he is. 5-I certainly don't agree with this one. I think his change is absolutely a pitch he can count on. His curve as well for that matter. In fact, I think all three are good pitches. He's really been exceptional since that first Chicago outing.

And if he hadn't, everyone would have been all over Yost for not getting Riske out of there and not being able to tell when a pitcher doesn't have "it". I'd rather he "burn up" Gange and get the win then save him and blow the game.

Yes, it's definitely fair to use Cameron and Kendall's numbers from past years as we're trying to predict what they're going to do. I definitely agree with that. And the fact that the only reason we got either player is because they had a huge down year last year and are both good bets to bounce back and out-produce what we got from those two spots last year. I also think if you're using just OPS to compare Estrada and Kendall, you're missing the impact that Kendall's OBP will have. This teams problem is getting on base. Kendall and to a lesser degree Cameron will be a big help in that regard.

As for next year's closer, gagne looks pretty good lately. We signed him to a premium contract this year when nobody else wanted him. I would think that might mean something to him. if I was Melvin, would I want to invest $48 million over 4 years to retain Gagne? That's his call, not mine. I always say - see a need - fill a need. I can't imagine the Brewers would even entertain that notion. I certainly hope they wouldn't. While I'll argue they've got money to spend, they do have to be almost perfect with it. Gange's injury concern hasn't really been brought up on here for the most part because we signed him for a 1 year deal, but if we signed him for 4 years at 12 a year, that would probably cause us to lose someone else, and frankly, I don't believe even if he's healthy that he's worth anything near that. Plus, when you look at this FA market, there really are some nice relievers out there. The two I keep going to are Brandon Lyon and Juan Cruz. Cruz is a FA who is just filthy. Bobby Howry, Kerry Wood...there are some nice options that should be much cheaper. Where is all the money going to come from? We'll say thanks for the memories to Cameron, Cappy, and Bush and trade Turnbow. Not to mention I believe that the contract we signed Suppan to was specifically so we could deal him at this point. It was a Carlos Delgado-esque deal, and I believe worst case, we give him away to the Mets. But we should also draw 3 million this year, and we made a great deal of money last year after all was said and done. The only question is going to be how much does Mark A and his investors want to make? Either way, they're going to make money unless they spend about 130-140 million. I really liked the Suppan, riske and Torres signings. I' m confident melvin will find some new pieces. Lets not forget two arms that he brought in this year and late last year that have a lot of talent in Seth McClung and Chris Naverson. Now Naverson doesn't really have the fan fare and he has a lot to prove, but he was a top 3 prospect for a couple years for the Cardinals, has 4 pitches, is a lefty, can command them and has good velocity. Now clearly there's a reason hes' still in AAA, but if he can stay healthy, he's a possible factor next year, and if Seth McClung can get his control under wraps, he's a definite factor. He could even be a starter next year. Of course that's not likely, but it's becoming more possible with his progress. Part of it is that small market teams just have to get lucky. Their big deals have to work, and they have to uncover few gems that come out of nowhere and develop into viable big league starters. Melvin's done a great job doing that, and IF they lose Sheets, they need to be able to have guys step up, and bring in another good arm which I think they'll do.

Plus, if the money is flowing then it's flowing to big market teams as well, and if they earmark and player and really want that player, well, there's nothing the Brewers are going to do about it. Yea, but the big market teams have always had that money. The only thing that's happened is that the big market teams are now paying money out to the rest of the league, so actually, they've got less money. The bleakness I'm talking about is the lack of minor league prospects. I'd be shocked if they can afford Sheets, but hey I've been wrong everyday of my life just ask my ex-wife. The bleakness you're talking about is how bad our pitching will be in 2009. Again, we have no idea how Gallardo, Parra and Villy develop. Those three right there could give you a great 1-2-3. Maybe YO turns out to be an ace, and the other two not as good. I don't know, which is my point. And while I would contend that Melvin can find a closer (he seems to have the knack) that's very different from finding a real live ace. Of course it is. I don't think anyone would argue that. But hey, back to Sheeter, despite all the money that's coming in I still don't believe it. Major contracts are on the horizon for Prince and Ryan and maybe JJ and if Yo breaks out. What if they keep Cameron? What if Suppan is untradeable (be honest do you want him on your team at that salary?). There's plenty of money that's gonna be spent. Well yea, there are a ton of what it's. I don't think Suppan will be untradeable. I don't understand why everyone seems to think it'd be so hard to trade him. The Mets, the team that was thought to be the favorites to sign him when he surprised them and signed with us before last season are losing 3/5th of your rotation next year. 2 years isn't a long commitment, and 12.5 million is hardly outrageous. Put him on a team that scores runs in a pitchers park, and I believe there will be several teams looking at him. And I could play the what if's as well. What if we trade Suppan. What if Sheets wants to say in Milwaukee? What if Mark A is co-producer on the next "House" with his Brother. I don't know about all the what if's. And yea, we're going to need to sign those players. But it's still a couple years before most of them get big money. Lets not forget, we don't have to find 15 million in our budget to sign him, we need to find another 4-5 million. And yea, there is still plenty of money to be spent. But we've also got a lot more money than people seem to recognize. In 2010 the Brewers should get roughly 80 million dollars right off the top before they factor in ticket sales or anything else. I don't recall the specifics, but the Yanks and Mets while building their stadiums didn't have to pay out as much the last couple years, which ends the year they move into their stadiums. My point is, this team should be up to near 100 million in the next couple years without extending itself that much. But no, they very well may not sign Sheets. I'm not saying they will. I'm simply stating that it's not like it was 5 years ago, and moreover, even if they don't resign him, they've got very good young talent right now that is developing. And while I remain extremely pessimistic about next year's pitching staff It just seems to me that you've almost got to go out of your way to be pessimistic about NEXT years team right now. Hell, we don't have any idea what it's going to look like next year, so saying that it looks bleak when we can probably say for certain about 6 of the pitchers that will make up that staff is insanely premature. Even if we lose Ben Sheets, I can envision a scenario in which we're better next year. Sign a guy like Derek Lowe, Yo becomes an ace, Parra becomes a reliable number 2. We sign Juan Cruz from the D-backs. A rotation of Yo, Parra, Lowe, Suppan, Villanueva. BP of Juan Cruz, Luis Pena, Salomon Torres, David Riske, Brian Shouse, McClung... I don't know..I'm pulling that from my arse, but that's my point. It's so far off, how can we say that it's bleak? A million things can happen. Maybe McClung becomes a starter next year and turns into Fausto Carmona?

Well I certainly don't think the Cards are going to be there for the long haul, but I do think that it's possible the Cards are a team that sticks around most of the year. The thing we all just gloss over, myself included is that Dave Duncan does an amazing job with reclamation projects. What was Suppan before he got to the Cards? Chris Carpenter? Darryl Kyle? He just has such an ability to take pitchers with good arms and get the most out of them. I was a little worried coming into the year about Kyle Lohse because he's always had a very good arm. Lohse, Wainwright and Looper may hold serve until Carpenter and Mulder get back, Mulder should be back relatively soon. So no, I don't think they'll win 90 games, but if the Brewers and Cubs play poorly and under perform winning only 85 or so games, the Cards could find themselves right around there. I don't know if any team has more annoying, pesky, obnoxious little hitters either. Seriously, "skip"? Any guy named Skip...I tell ya....

First of all, in regards to Estrada, I never used his career statistics. The most I used were his 3 year splits, which I think is a pretty fair analysis. How? The whole point is we're comparing what the team did LAST YEAR to what they should do this year. The other two years in his splits don't have anything to do with this thread whatsoever. I don't think that line for Kendall (.263, .285) is biased. I think only using the '07 numbers might be a little biased. For instance, I certainly don't think it's fair to assume that Kendall will hit 61 points higher vs. RHP than LHP just because he did in '07. Explain how? How can it possibly be biased? What does his numbers for the D-backs and Braves have to do with the price of tea in China? It's totally irrelevant. I think it's a fair assumption to say that a guy who's a career .297/.374 guy vs right handers is going to produce better than .265/.285 that we got out of Estrada last year. And when did I say anything about expecting Kendall to hit 61 points higher vs RHP than LHP? I don't care what his splits are. The fact of the matter is he had the worst year of his career, and he was STILL significantly better vs right handers than Estrada was. No, I don't expect him to have that big of a split this year. I expect it to be much less pronounced as I expect him to hit better overall. You're putting arguments into my mouth here. Cameron hit .222 and .298 off RHP based off his last year stats, while Jenkins even in a bad year was .262 and .326. So it works both ways. Could Cameron do that against RHP? Sure, maybe. I wouldn't consider it a lock at age 35, though, that's for sure. No, it does NOT work both ways. 2007 is over. We know what Jenks did. The argument is not whether Jenks had a bad year and he could do better. That number's a given. And no it's not a lock. I suppose that Cameron could match the worst year of his career vs right handers. You've got me there, it's certainly possible, but what are we debating here? What's possible, or what's probable? Cameron's hit much better vs right handers than that his entire career, and he's going from the worst hitters park to a good one. To a average at beast lineup to a good one hitting in front of Prince. In 06 he posted a .273/.353 line vs right handers. I just think that those who expect them to be a noticeable offensive upgrade from Estrada and Jenkins over the course of the season are going to be disappointed. And again, we're expecting a noticeable upgrade from what Estrada and Jenkins did in 2007. I simply don't understand why those two players three year splits would have anything to do with anything. If this debate was whether we'd be better off with Geoff Jenkins and Johnny Estrada THIS YEAR over those two, that might be a debate. Arguing that Kendall and Cameron should exceed what those two did last year is probably.

Agent, relax. We're not cursing the guy's family, we're questioning if he's better utilized and has a better future at shortstop or CF. And yea, we've got several OF'ers in the minors, but we don't have a lot of CF'ers who project to be hit enough or are athletic enough to play in the big leagues. LaPorta? Gillespie? They're not CF'ers. Brantley hasn't played much Center in the minors, so it stands to reason he's not a viable CF prospect on a good big league team. Ford's not nearly the prospect that Brewer is, and Cain's also played mainly corner OF though he could play center. A lot of talented athletes come up as Shortstop's, but most who struggle defensively early on end up getting moved. Hell, Gary Sheffeild, Bobby Bonilla, Miquel Cabrera..a lot of guys come up as Shortstops as organizations hope they'll figure it out, but most who have that high a number of errors get moved eventually. I just don't see why you'd say that he'll "live or die" at shortstop? As though he's got no chance to make it anywhere else? And yes, we realize you're his agent and you speak with Brent and have a personal relationship with him, however that also tells us that you're not objective. The bottom line, 82 errors in 172 games is not a very encouraging sign and suggests that if he's going to live or die at Short, it doesn't look very good. That's not a rush to judgment, it doesn't mean that he's "wasted" anywhere else, or that none of us know what we're talking about by suggesting that he may not stick at shortstop like most scouts have suggested. It's just the reality of the situation when you've got a guy ahead of him in AA ball right now who would be a very, very good big league defensive shortstop right now in the big leagues, and the guy on the big league club is one of the more reliable shortstop's in the league. So while the numbers of prospect in CF may be higher, the quality most certainly is not. I think we all hope we're wrong. It'd be great to see him reach his offensive potential and use that great range and cannon at shortstop, but again, we just don't see it as being very likely.

You know, you have to wonder why he didn't pan out as a starter. Was it because of his stamina? He wasn't awful his last years as a starter posting a whip of just 1.23 and an ERA of 4.75, but clearly wasn't anywhere near what he would become. And I know he's obviously developed his curve, but he's always had a very good change, and he did have a solid curve. He also wouldn't have thrown 99, but he'd likely have been sitting at 94-95 as a starter. It just seems to me that with that type of velocity and two two plus off-speed pitchers that he'd have been a very good starting pitcher. Anyway, not important, just an interesting thought. Usually you become a reliever because you've got good velocity but only 2 pitches. But when you've got a change and a curve with great velocity, you'd think you've be given every chance to start.

He has thrown it in the past, and at times it has really looked like he was turning that corner and becoming a three pitch pitcher, but I don't think he's ever been really comfortable with it, and with his fastball/curve combo, I can understand why. When you've got two overpowering pitches, and you don't feel that comfortable with your third, you're not going to go to it in big situations. There was one game last year where he threw his change, and I don't recall which is was..it may have been opening day, but he really had it going. It was by far the most impressive I'd seen him throw it. I think he'll eventually develop it and go to it in order to become a more efficient pitcher...I just hope it's wearing the Brewers Blue.

I'm not sure where we're getting that Cameron and Kendall are definite upgrades even against RHP over Jenkins and Estrada. Jenkins as we know is very good against RHP. Using 3 year splits, Because we're not using 3 year splits, we're comparing this years team to last years team. Using Jenks numbers from 05 and 06 doesn't do anything to tell us how this years team may look as compared to last years team. Also, Cameron's numbers have been put together in Petco, the biggest pitchers park in the game, and he had an awful year last year skewing his 3 year splits. Estrada has a .282 BA and a .728 OPS vs. RHP. Kendall has a .270 BA and a .657 OPS vs. RHP. Again, 3 year splits...which don't have much bearing on this conversation with regard to Estrada. Last year Estrada hit .263 with a .285 OBP last year vs right handers. Kendall in by far the worst year of his career last year was .259/.315. So in what was by far Kendall's worst year ever, he still had a OBP 30 points higher than Estrada. In 06 Kendall was .285/.350. I don't see anything that really indicates that we can say who we obtained should do better vs. RHP than who we had, without sounding a little biased. And again, we're not comparing Johnny Estrada's career numbers vs right handers to Jason Kendall's or Geoff Jenkins, we're comparing what each did last season which is the only relevant season to this discussion to what Kendal and Cameron can be expected to do this year vs right handers. There's nothing bias about it. How is saying that Jason Kendall should put up a better line than .263/.285 this year biased? Or that Mike Cameron hitting in front of Prince in Miller Park should put up a better line than .262/.326 this year.

Well, it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy. At least in the role the Brewers want to use him in. Yes, he was great in 06 vs right handers, but he's been just awful since except for a number of AB's that everyone on here would rush to question. I've been defending him on the ESPN boards as I think he's a better option off the bench...but I'm starting to seriously doubt that. You want a guy who can consistently give you solid AB's off the bench as your 4th OF'er, and he hasn't done that in a long time...since 06, and even then he was hideous for almost 2 months in May and June(got hot again the end of June). Gwynn on the other hand has looked very good in his AB's this year, and is always improving and offers you good defense and base running. It's not longer ridiculous to suggest that Gwynn may be the better bench option at this point.

So you would rather have Jenkins and Estrada than Cameron and Kendall? Seriously? Did I say that?? Don't be stupid! I believe the Brewers need more front line players that swing from the left side to even things out a little. And by front line I don't mean Gross or Counsell. Oh, I get it. You make an argument that we're going to continue to be bad vs right handers because we lost the two left handers we did have. Now you ignore the fact that we actually replaced them with two right handers we added actually hit BETTER vs righties than who we traded, and I'm "being stupid" when I try and point this out? And yes, in a perfect world, Braun, Hart and Hardy would all hit left handed, and Weeks, Hall, Kendall and Cameron would be right handers so we could be perfectly balanced, but we're not. It'd also be nice to get another ace like the D-backs, M's, or Tribe have, but we don't have that either. The question is are we going to be bad all year vs right handers. I believe we've upgraded from last year in that regard regardless what side of the plate the two additions hit from.

So the fact that the two right handers we replaced the lefties with are most likely going to hit better vs right handers than they did doesn't matter? Just simply because they're left handers, and now we've got right handers that means that they're automatically going to be worse? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Well for starters because those two weren't very good last year. That'd be the first reason. 263 .285 -Estrada 262 .326 -Jenkins Being left handed is obviously advantage, but just because they were left handed doesn't mean they're going to be better than what we're replacing them with. I'd assume that Kendall and Cameron will at least match those numbers vs right handed pitching. I'd also assume that Prince is going to get it going, Weeks will improve overall on his splits from last year...and so on. Also, Joe Dillon should be appreciably better vs right handers than Kevin Mench was. That's another couple hundred ab's that should be improved. That list you gave us had a couple flukes in it(Fogg, Figueroa), a couple studs(Cueto, Harang, Zambrano) and a couple decent pitchers (Dempster, Looper). And more than anything, we're just struggling a little bit right now. I don't think that spells doom for us vs right handers all year. (fixed formatting -TC)

And Detroit...and St Louis... The guys anything but the model of consistency, but he's been good at times during his career, he's got a great arm. Maybe Maddux can help him figure out...whatever it is that he needs to figure out so that he can harness his ability to be the pitcher he was in 02, 04 and 05 and then in the post season for the Cards. Maybe he can't, but if he can't, what do we lose? Nothing. If he can, we've gained another good arm. I just don't know how this move can get anyone too worked up. It's a good move strictly for the considerable reward and the non-existent risk.