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Be objective...value of Prince and Sheets?


I had a arguement/discussion with a buddy at lunch today and we talking about the Brewers problems naturally and he I believe that he was overvaluing Prince Fielder and Ben Sheets. It is a natural thing to overvalue one's star players but what is the real value of them? I am going to give two hypothetical trades and these are what we based our arguements on Prince and Sheets and tell me who got the better end and do the Brewers get screwed or are the Brewers screwing over the other teams.

 

Ben Sheets and Mike Cameron to the New York Yankees for Melky Caberra, Ian Kennedy, and prospect Brad Suttle.

 

Prince Fielder to the San Fransisco Giants for Matt Cain, and prospects Clayton Tanner, Sergio Romo, and Pablo Sandaval.

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Sheets and Cameron could walk after this season, so yeah, I'd take the first trade--at least in a couple of months if the team is still in 4th place. I think Melky could develop into a really nice OF. He fields very well, and has showed a little pop this season. I know nothing about suttle.

 

I know nothing about the Giant prospects you list, so I definitely wouldn't trade Fielder for that haul. I didn't think the giants had a well-stocked minors, so I doubt there is any way I would do that trade.

 

Really, I wouldn't consider either of the trades right now.

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I would certainly take the first trade over the second, however I wouldn't trade for Kennedy. I think he is another example of a guy who has been overvalued to this point. Obviously he's only 24, however he has looked pretty atrocious to this point in the season.

 

Not certain who I would trade those 2 guys for, would have to think about it for a bit.

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I know these two would never happen and I am not even proposing these deals to do. I am just trying to figure out each of their values. Maybe I should have worded it like if you were to trade Prince or Sheets what would you expect in return. I just don't know what their true value is.

 

I totally 100% disagree about not trading Sheets if we are out of it come July. I will take my already proven prospects or good young MLB players then 2 picks you could totally miss out on.

 

What about Prince Fielder for Clayton Kershaw? I know the Dodgers have Loney but talent for talent would that be about Prince's value?

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I totally 100% disagree about not trading Sheets if we are out of it come July. I will take my already proven prospects or good young MLB players then 2 picks you could totally miss out on.

Nobody is going to give up good, young MLB players as it depletes their talent base while going for a playoff push. And your "proven prospects" doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as a proven prospect, it's impossible.

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WHAT are you freaken serious? Then I guess no trades will be made at the deadline if they don't trade young players. Proven prospects makes perfect sense. Matt LaPorta is a proven prospect. He may not make it at the MLB level but he is living up to his first round billing. He is proving to be a top prospect. You could take some shmuck next year with your extra pick that could stink the joint up or get hurt.
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I agree with Madtown and the term makes sense because I want top level prospects that have proven to be top level prospects.

 

As far as what the value of Prince Fielder and Ben Sheets are, it is hard. I wouldn't do either of those trades. I did some googling of those prospects and I think you need more then that from both teams.

 

Your Fielder for Clayton Kershaw, I doubt the Dodgers would do it but I think that is about what the Brewers would ask for and which is also why Fielder is going to remain with the Brewers for a long, long time.

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WHAT are you freaken serious? Then I guess no trades will be made at the deadline if they don't trade young players. Proven prospects makes perfect sense. Matt LaPorta is a proven prospect. He may not make it at the MLB level but he is living up to his first round billing. He is proving to be a top prospect. You could take some shmuck next year with your extra pick that could stink the joint up or get hurt.

 

Sorry, I took proven to mean proven at the MLB level as you made a statement about proven, young MLB players. But there is no such thing as a proven prospect, that point still remains. There are prospects who produce and are amongst the top prospects in the game but until they prove it at the MLB level none of them are proven.
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In my opinion both players are really untradable for the teams future. As a middle market team, we need to pay for the talent that is worth is, and let go mediocre players. Instead we have responded by letting go of talent, ie Lee, and Cordero, and paid for mediocrity Gagne, Suppan.

 

 

I feel many members of the forum here are stuck in the team's past. Are payroll continues to increase and we actually have talented team. There is no reason to be talking of selling off our best players, we are past that development stage as a team.

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the problem with judging "trade value" in MLB (or really any sport) is that there are too many factors that we don't know how teams value. I mean things like contract length, service time, etc. A large market team may give up more for a guy like Sheets than, say, the A's would, because the money to resign Sheets wouldn't be a problem for them. So, a small-market team might conceivably value an average player with 5 years until free agency much more highly than they would a superstar with 1 year until FA. A large market team wouldn't have to worry as much about dollars and can just want the better player.

 

all that said, I have to think that despite his slow start and questionable defensive abilities, Fielder is one of the more valuable players in MLB right now. He's still got 4 years (counting this one) till FA and his career OPS+ is identical to Mark Teixiera's, who is supposedly in line for a $200 million dollar contract this offseason. I don't think a team would offer enough to make it worthwhile to get him because in order to pry him loose, they'd have to gut their franchise.

 

Sheets is a tougher call because of his injury history and being in the last year of his contract. If he can stay healthy till June or July, he'd probably be the best pitcher available at the deadline since Randy Johnson in 1998. The Mariners got Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama for him. Obviously Randy had more of a track record than Ben, but (barring injury) I think a package of two top prospects and a useful older guy would be reasonable to expect, depending on which teams are interested.

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With regards to the Kershaw deal, I think that you'd expect to get back at least that from the Dodgers.

 

Prince has already hit 50 bombs. There's no question as to how good of a big leaguer he can be. We know. He's an MVP type, middle of the order player who's still got 3 years left under the control of whichever team would trade for him after this season. I'd think it'd have to be Kershaw plus a prospect, and a pretty good one, as good as Kershaw is.

 

In my opinion both players are really untradable for the teams future. As a middle market team, we need to pay for the talent that is worth is, and let go mediocre players. Instead we have responded by letting go of talent, ie Lee, and Cordero, and paid for mediocrity Gagne, Suppan.

 

Totally different situations. Gange's a one year deal, so he's got absolutely nothing in common with the other 3. Cordero we offered the money to, he just strung us along without telling us what the deal was.

Lee got a ridiculous deal that would have been absolutely terrible to sign him to. 100 million dollars for Carlos Lee? I've yet to hear anyone really say that they think we should have signed him. And Suppan got the going rate for what he was.

 

Also, I'm not sure what we've responded to, but we signed guys to 5 years and 52 million dollars worth of contracts as opposed to the guys you pointed out who signed 10 years and 150 million dollars worth of deals. You just can't compare those situations at all.

 

Another benefit to not trading Sheets is that you could still try to re-sign him before the season ends.

 

I really think we have to sign Sheets if we want to win anything. Offer him a 3 year 50 million dollar deal, and in which case he'll be able to get another big contract when he's 33.

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Ben Sheets = Phil Hughes and that 19 Year Old OF (jose tabata?).

 

Prince = The top 2 prospects in any system. He has everything a major market looks for in a franchise player, he is a black guy which is great for baseball these days, son of a former star, and looks edgy. I honestly think that Prince can get you any 2 prospects in baseball. (obviously the Rays cant afford him or the Nationals)

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Prince = The top 2 prospects in any system. He has everything a major market looks for in a franchise player, he is a black guy which is great for baseball these days, son of a former star, and looks edgy. I honestly think that Prince can get you any 2 prospects in baseball. (obviously the Rays cant afford him or the Nationals)

I'd need more than just the top two prospects for Fielder.

While I think many Brewers fans over-value some of our players, I think many are under-valuing Fielder because he's off to a slow start this year.

 

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When trying to figure out "objective" values I think you have to compare whoever you're looking at with someone on your own team. Otherwise there's no such thing as "objective" values because in trading both teams have an agenda. I'd say that Sheets has the value of Hart. And Fielder has the value of Braun, which oddly enough does nothing to establish his "objective" value.
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Your Fielder for Clayton Kershaw, I doubt the Dodgers would do it but I think that is about what the Brewers would ask for and which is also why Fielder is going to remain with the Brewers for a long, long time.

Fielder is FAR more valuable than Kershaw. Has everyone forgotten last year already?

 

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The Dodgers would be a good place to start in looking at what Prince is worth. They have a need at first base, and some solid prospects. Kershaw would definitely have to be part of it as would Andy LaRoche. Honestly, you look at what the Diamondbacks gave up from their system for Haren, I think the Brewers could get a haul for Prince. To me, Prince is that guy on the roster to trade (not this year by any means but closer to when his contract is up) because he is most likely to price himself out of Milwaukee. With LaPorta and Gamel waiting in the wings the Brewers SEEM to have guys who could step in and play first and hit rather well.
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You really can't project a guy at AA having a good shot to hit 50 HR in the majors, ever. LaPorta might, gamel might be able to have an OPS over 1.000 in the majors, but the guys that are in the top 1-2% of the league are really irreplaceable, for all practical matters. You can make the team better by trading them for quality players, but even that is hard to do.
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You really can't project a guy at AA having a good shot to hit 50 HR in the majors, ever. LaPorta might, gamel might be able to have an OPS over 1.000 in the majors, but the guys that are in the top 1-2% of the league are really irreplaceable, for all practical matters. You can make the team better by trading them for quality players, but even that is hard to do.

I didn't mean either of those guys could replace Prince's full value to the team. I think LaPorta can be a consistent 30+ home run guy. Gamel, I am not sure on but he is a nice prospect. Prince's overall production is irreplaceable but if you can get a top-end of the rotation prospect (like Yo was a couple years back) and get another position player prospect with upside, along with another prospect then you have something going. I want Prince to be in Milwaukee for his career I just dont think that is possible so I am trying to figure out what we could get for him. What would you think would be fair value (or what you need in return) for Prince?

 

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I think Fielder's value is still highly questionable. He has only been in the league 2 years. I am sure he will be a good offensive player year in and year out, but we don't know if he is going to be in the 35 HR range or the 45 HR range every year or in the .280 or .300 range. His weight will always be an issue until he retires making people expect a huge decline early in his career. Last, but not least, he is below average defensivley. I am sure he would net a big haul, but not big enough to outweigh his value to us mostly because of his expected early decline.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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What is the appeal of Melky cabrera anyway. As far as trading Sheets is concerned I just dont get it. This team has no good starting pitching other than Sheets and Gallardo. Sheets is an ace and a guy we need to keep and build around. We will never be able to sign an ace as a free agent. Look what we paid for Suppan who is nothing more than a 5th starter. Sign Sheets and build around him and Gallardo and we can compete for years to come. As far as Fielder is concerned we have him for 3 more years after this so there is no reason to trade him either.
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