Fatter than Joey

I'm pro-Yost for the most part, but last night's game was the most poorly managed game I've seen in his tenure. I would say "most recent poorly managed game" -- otherwise July 8th says hello. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

When you look at the likes of Spurling, Balfour and even an inexperienced Parra, adding a guy like Scott makes me feel more comfortable as a Brewers fan. Why? -- One of those guys is going away when Sheets returns. Another one will probably get removed if/when the Brewers go down to 12 pitchers. I guess I don't feel comfortable about Linebrink getting Spurling's innings. I am sure that Linebrink is better, however, Spurling has done just fine in situations he should pitch in, blowouts or games that have a 4 run lead in the 9th inning. -- I just don't see that translating into more wins. If Sheets is out longer -- then I agree this trade makes more sense.

"I mean...you thought that LINEUP was dumb. Hell, wait until I send Prince from first base on a 3-2 pitch to Jenkins. Ha! I did it again!!" Thanks Bruce -- that cheered me up -- Kudos to Brian as well for that angry baby picture. What pissed me off about that play, was that I had to try to explain it to my wife -- she said the following 3 things. 1.) You know Jenks is going to K 2.) It's a given Prince is slow 3.) Mench is slow and going to do something stupid like reach his arms up and let the catcher tag him on his arms, instead of trying to avoid the tag. Then of course Ned is storming around in the dugout as if he is angry that, those 3 events didn't work to his advantage. Getting Yosted hurts, owwie.

If the Brewers played the Cubs in the NLCS they would not be the media darlings. If the Brewers won their first playoff series after 25 years -- you better believe that they would be pushed as the media darlings regardless of who they would play in the NLCS.

Tell me you wouldn't love to see a Cubs/Crew NLCS...that is my dream. Let's make this a rivalry--not a pity party on the Cubs I am unabashedly hoping that the Cubs get the WC -- If the Cubs and Brewers were to meet in the NLCS that would do wonders for baseball in this area, it would give the national TV execs, something to market and promote. If the Brewers get to the NLCS they will be the media darlings, if they have to play their hated rivals, even better.

I waited awhile before posting, as my initial reaction was very negative. So let's look at the short term. We currently have 13 pitchers on our staff. Our starters -- Yo, Soup, Bush, Vargas, Cappy Our BP -- CoCo, Tbow, Villy, Wise, Shouse, Spurling, Balfour, Parra. Assuming Sheets comes off the DL, let's say Balfour gets DFA'd, and Yo gets bumped to the BP. Who does Linebrink replace? -- Let's assume Spurling gets DFA'd. At some point we probably go back down to 12 pitchers so Parra probably gets returned to AAA. OK so now we have a closer -- CoCo; a LOOGY -- Shouse, 2 long guys in Villy and YO; and then 3 setup guys in Wise, Tbow and Linebrink. Essentially we swapped our garbage inning guy (Spurling) for Linebrink. Here are the scenarios in which I like this trade. 1.) Sheets is hurt worse than we know and Yo has to stay in the rotation for most of August/September. 2.) Yo and/or Parra are going to get shut down soon regardless of the Brewers playoff situation. 3.) Doug Melvin wants to trade one of our 3 setup guys (Wise, Tbow, Linebrink) in some sort of deal for a LFer. 4.) Doug Melvin thinks that our last 60 or so games are all going to be 1 run games. 5.) Doug Melvin does not trust Yost's ability to manage a BP, and rather than have a guy like Spurling around to pitch in 8-0 games, Yost will now not have to think about things, and always have decent pitchers ready for "tomorrow's game" Otherwise I do not like this trade at all. It smacks of desperation. Now, I don't have a problem with Spurling, or even Balfour on the roster. In these last 60 games or so -- there are going to be some blowouts. There are also going to be some games where Sheets goes the distance (or into closer territory), so it seems to me that as it stands right now -- the 25-30 IPs that Linebrink is going to get are going to come in a large part from Spurling, and he will be pitching in 8-0 games -- and that just does not make a lot of sense to me. I don't think that Linebrink is going to be an upgrade over Tbow or Wise -- I suspect (hope) one of the three is going to be moved. I am not huge on Inman -- and am not opposed to trading him -- I was hoping for a LFer (in some sort of package) or a closer (as Sam astutely points out) for 2008. I know that some are excited about compensatory picks -- I really am not -- If we let CoCo and Linebrink walk -- we will have a BP anchored by Tbow and Wise, which I find unacceptable. If we did not have CoCo this year -- I really think we are behind the Cubs probably before the AS break.

He doesn't care what people think of him. That's part of what makes him such a darn good manager. This is exactly what I am speaking to. People say things like above -- without knowing if it is true or if such a thing actually is an attribute that good managers have. Really I don't want to engage in a Yost is good/bad debate here -- rather, just want to point out with regards to Estrada, Yost handled this poorly.

To even judge Ned Yost on those 2 seasons is an insult to your own intellegence. I think you mean intelligence http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif We judged all the players on the 2002-2004 rosters, I am not sure why Ned should get to skate on that. I'm sorry this Estrada debate turned into this, but my goodness to even compare Ned Yost to any other manger because he hasn't won anything yet...and in your own words...has been craptastic. I am not sure how. Let me try again. Ned gets a lot of kudos here, and it is certainly is not based on results. I am confident that other managers, while may not have been able to win WS titles with the 2003-4 Brewers, would have done a better job than Yost. If Yost supporters can't use results to support the notion that Ned is a competent manager, they use hand-waving arguments such as, that Ned is popular with his players and gets the most of the talent he has. Estrada is a case study that Yost has no special talents here. He either has his C with a bad hammy catching 12 innings, or he is letting Estrada fail. I certainly won't argue that as the Brewers talent increases their win total will as well. However I felt like Yost was a subpar manager in 2003, and his handling of Estrada and others tends to make me think the zebra hasn't changed his stripes.

I have a harder time understanding why he would defend Estrada for lack of hustle. Agreed -- after all we had Brady Clark on our roster for what seemed like 10 years -- I thought if nothing else, we were all about the hustle, grit, gametitude and aceyness. Brady Clark beats out that ground-ball and crashes into Jeff Conine prematurely ending his 17 year career. Comparing record of others is apples and oranges since they all have different talent levels. Right -- however many, many other managers have taken teams in the toilet bowl to the playoffs in less time than Yost has. Plus just because you can't compare apples to oranges, doesn't mean one isn't doing a crappy job. Brady Clark would have managed this team to back-to-back championships by now.

My take is that the Brewers appropriately concealed the injury to avoid giving an edge to their opponents. Do you mean before or after the game?

Then again I always liked Ned so I view him differently than haters do. I am not a Ned hater. OK I just lied. What has ground my hamburger over these last months, is the sacred cow treatment that Ned seems to enjoy with some of the bigger kool-aid enthusiasts here at BFnet. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif I often feel like after reading some posts here that when I was immersed in free-love and cheap Huber beer in the early 90s, I missed out on Ned Yost's amazing playoff runs. However, when I check baseball-reference.com, I see that Ned Yost has been nothing short of craptacular. I suppose there exists 2 sides to the coin that is Ned Yost. One side gleefully drinks the kool-aid, in their jumpsuits, ready for the spaceship (Battlescrapper Gritlactica) to take them to their Eden -- awaiting an 8-peat of WS titles. The other side of the coin, where I tend to exist under, tends to blame Yost for everything that happens in a Brewers game up to and including Davey Nelson verbally scarring us with "Vargas needs to pound meat". I understand the point Bruce is trying to make, it is hard to defend Yost using tangible things like playoff appearances, winning seasons and overall winning percentage -- as Yost is on the losing end of that comparison with just about every current manager in MLB, -- but yet Yost gets more kudos than managers like Guillen and Pinella, who have actually produced results. So, we are told that Yost is a genius with his players, and then we experience a situation where either Yost is sending his catcher out with a bad hammy to catch for 12 innings, or he is letting his catcher get away with lallygagging down to first base. Then we get some sort of statement like "Aquino fields his position better". I am calling bull-ploppy on you Yost! Johnny Estrada plays catcher with the same tenacity and technique I would imagine the fat rich kid from Pee-Wee's big adventure would. The odd thing to me, is that JE is the antithesis to the gritty standard-bearer that Ned seems to prefer, I would think by now JE would be 3rd on our depth chart behind recently acquired scrapper Sal Fasano and the equally gritty Ned Yost IV or V (I often wonder if one of those Scandinavian countries is just making clones of Yost, and calling them Ned Yost IV, etc..)

The other night I heard the announcers say Braun has a chance at the Rookie Triple Crown (most HRs, RBIs & best Avg of all Rookies). Has this ever been done before? I have never heard of such a thing. I suspect it has been done, and has to be WAY easier to do than the regular triple crown. Also, has a Rookie ever won the major league batting title? Off the top of my head, Ichiro won a BA title as a Rookie Al Kaline won a BA title at the age of 20 Fred Lynn won league MVP as a rookie -- I dont think he was the BA champ though -- but I am sure he would have led in OPS. Fred Lynn had a monster rookie campaign -- probably one of the best I have ever seen. But were the projections saying he would be this good with the wood? It's a bit early yet to say Braun is "this good"-- He has the luxury of batting in front of a MVP candidate, and I suspect at some point here MLB pitchers will make some adjustments, and find a way to slow Braun down a bit. He sure looks like a special player though. I also think that Braun's success has people expecting too much from LaPorta too fast.... I think Braun is the exception not the rule. I think you are probably right, however, I do agree with the next poster that it isn't "crazy" or unreasonable to think LaPorta could start in 2009. Certainly though, Braun is special, and this sort of rookie campaign happens rather infrequently.

Anyhow back to the topic........what kind of damage do you think that does to an arm going 2 times in a day/night DH? I don't think that much really -- He only made 30 pitches -- There is probably less wear and tear on an arm going 2x in one day, rather than in a whole bunch of days in a row. I agree Gagne would be awesome to see become a Brewer, and has been a very astute acquisition for the Rangers. I suspect that they may try to extend Gagne rather than trade him, but they will probably get rid of Gagne or Otsuka.

Did he calmly and politely decline or did he laugh uncontrollably and just hang up the phone? I suspect that they could have made reasonable offers. It is after all, a GMs job to see what players are on the market, and who is untouchable, and who could be pried away. Plus I am sure Geno is on to something -- at some point some GM is going to assume that the Brewers are going to have a salary dump/fire sale. My guess is that DM has been on that other end of the phone on more than one occasion. If we give credit (as we should) for DM pulling off ridiculous trades that benefit the Brewers, -- we should probably realize that ridiculous trades are the fruit of ridiculous offers.

We are complaining about our catcher. there are about 15 other things we could talk about. Right, If you look at the major league forum there are more than 15 other items being discussed -- clearly we have met the obligatory 15 items to begin discussing Estrada. Instead we are discussing one play from a catcher that can actually hit. Not really -- If you read this thread, (and the other thread) you will see a lot of discussion regarding Estrada's play on both sides of the ball. Furthermore Estrada was not exactly revered by his teammates in Philly, Atlanta or AZ. It is really unfair to insinuate that someone on BFnet saw one play and then in your words "all of a sudden" started this thread, the concept that Estrada is a slacker dates back 5-6 years. But he doesn't run out one play that was a gimme double play and now... OK -- By your admission, he did not run out this play. I am pretty sure that one of the golden rules of baseball --- at any level -- is that you run out each play. I think it is pretty reasonable to call out any player that does not run out a play. the catcher whom was hated by most, is wanted back in the lineup. It's interesting to me -- you are a new(er) poster, yet you make a claim like this, which only a person could make if they contributed in a past life. On the other hand, you are entirely inaccurate on this. -- Your inclusions of the words, "most" and "hated" make your statement false. I am sure there are some Damian haters on this board, in the sense that every player has his detractors -- however they would be in the vast minority. But he is one of the better hitting catchers out there and that is a short list. I would challenge this statement -- Clearly Estrada is one of the worst OBP players in the game, catchers or otherwise. He is better than average in SLG, and remains there for OPS. I would say overall -- he is a very average offensive player for a catcher. The interesting thing, is that you look at the players who are better offensive catchers than JE -- all of them are vastly better defensively. And Piazza is not what we need. Awful defensively as well, doesn't hit that well anymore, and makes a bunch of money. Not a good option Plus he only DH's nowadays. I think you missed the joke here http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Can anyone suggest an alternative for Jenkins that will perform as well, and not cost $9mill next year? It's really not fair to say this -- really its not Jenks for $9mill its Jenks+Mench for $13 -- we can do better than this. I am not ready to gamble on LaPorta either -- at least as soon as 2009. It would be great if it happened, but I would really like to see the Brewers get an established OFer that could play for 3-4 seasons. -- If LaPorta kicks ass, then all the better.

Now its to the point that my kids will be hurt. My parents have been promising this for years and now likely wont take them, my children will not understand that and will be devastated. I think you are on the right track here -- I suspect in the long run you will feel better/worse about the impact this has on your kids moreso than the impact it will have on your parents. Either way -- you have nothing but empathy from me, as I can relate 100% to your tough situation. Good Luck!

The throw to 3B was the only real chance of getting out of the inning. That's just as much on Estrada if JE pointed him to throw in that direction -- I tend to agree though -- you probably have to try and get that out.

Fate seems to finally be shining on us. Well -- If by fate you mean "Prince Fielder NL HR leader" I agree http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif -- I suspect Gordon and Zimmerman would be putting up better numbers if they got to bat in front of Fielder. Braun looks like a keeper though -- He has a great plate approach.

I'd be fine with Yost using Balfour in non important situations to see what he has. However Yost has now twice thrown away games by putting him in and seeing what he can do when the game is on the line. This is exactly my sentiment. Balfour (as stated) hasn't pitched since 2004 in the MLB -- yet Yost would rather put Balfour in a tie game in the 12th inning, rather than putting in either Turnbow or Cordero. I think that while Balfour has to pitch better -- some sort of rust/nerves would be expected -- and a lot of this has to fall on Yost's shoulders.

He's not the kind of batter I'd expect to age gracefully. Exactly -- I don't think that Jenks has the skill set to become a "veteran professional hitter" like Cliff Floyd, Rusty Staub, Julio Franco, etc... I could certainly see some teams using him to bolster their OF, but I am not excited about the Brewers keeping him.

We'll see how this one turns out. Once we hear some details, it may enlighten some of Pete Rose's HOF supporters of the harm that gambling can cause. Exactly -- thanks for making this point. Gambling on sports is a losing proposition. Gamblers are going to lose, and the temptation to hedge your bets is going to be so large, and potentially damaging to the sport. If you think steroids is going to hurt MLB, wait until people start finding out the NBA was fixed. What bothers me, is that after 2 years some one in the NBA had to be clued it to what this ref. was doing -- his partners, the league, or players -- it seems to me there has to be more people involved, or at the very least, aware that this was happening.

Ok tough situation here and I need some outside perspective. I hope I can help -- I get into a lot of these sort of jams, with my parents and inlaws having a less than friendly/considerate relationship. For years my parents have been talking about taking my kids, my wife and I to Florida/Disney. It sounds like your parents had time to pull this trigger -- if your mom's knee was so bad "for years" -- I would hope she would understand the tenuous nature of surgery/recovery, and it could take months for her (not knowing her physical condition), to be able to travel, or get around at Disneyland well. My wife's Grandmother passed away. If your FIL's mom passed away -- I think it is very reasonable for him to want to get his family together and do something with the grandkids/kids. I sure would want to facilitate someone in his time of grief. Plus they had been making a big deal about this to my kids and now someone else will take them first. They probably should have not been talking to the kids about DL, without being sure that they would be able to go in a timely manner, this IMO is entirely their fault. Is she right? are they selfish? From what you described -- I would agree with your wife. Maybe, but if hurts me that she cant even see their point. She probably wants to accommodate your dad in his time of grief, and probably sees your parents situation trivial in comparison -- you had mentioned that your wife has offered compromises, so I think clearly, she can see their point. it would have at least been nice to tell her dad "hey my mom and dad have been talking about taking us for awhile, let me see when they were planning on going to make sure there are no conflicts. This is probably easier said than done -- I know I would have a hard time trying to negotiate something with my dad if he had just lost his mother, I would tend to want to oblige him. I just don't know how I am supposed to enjoy this trip when I will know my parents are miserable at home. I am not sure why your parents should be miserable -- at the end of the day -- your kids are going to have a wonderful time at Disneyland -- your mom has bigger issues ahead of her, with her knee, which may or may not heal in a timely fashion. I would hope your parents would be happy for the kids. The way we have been fighting about this isn't good and I need some perspective to be sure I am not overreacting or just blindly supporting my mom and dad. Generally speaking my philosophy is that I support my wife -- I made a vow to her, and to me, that relationship far outweighs the importance of the relationship with my parents. It is very important to me to respect my parents, but I rarely ever side with them. Your parents have to be 50 or 60 years old -- and should be mature enough to shake this off, and take your family to DL when your mother heals. If they promised to take your kids to DL, then they should keep their promises or keep quiet. It would be a good bonding experience for everyone and your family would likely be closer in the long run. Heh -- This made me chuckle. If my parents and inlaws embarked on this sort of endeavor the only thing that would make them closer would be their incarceration. I'm shocked to hear you had 4 generations alive. When my daughters were born, my wife's great grandmother was still alive -- making 5 generations -- but then she died. Aren't the kids going to think it's odd that they've been talking about going with the paternal grandparents for years and and are suddenly going with their maternal grandparents instead? Grandparents should probably know better than to make promises to kids that are not locked in -- especially if they have been promising over a space of "years". Why can't both sides of the family go together? I am not sure if Coach's family is like mine -- So many of my discussions with my wife start with "Why can't our family (insert lucid/reasonable action)." What's wrong with four grandparents at once? Speaking strictly to my family -- Revelation, four horsemen, apocalyptic events, etc... I hope this helps -- I certainly empathize with you.

The Brewers are in a legit pennant race for the first time in roughly 25 years and it seems like few are enjoying it,i don't get it. I dont think it is fair to say that people aren't enjoying it -- I think it's like a movie/roller coaster, where people are constantly on the edge of their seats. Pepto Bismol will play a role for some people down the stretch I am sure. There will be a lot of nail-biting to be done.... The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Pearl Harbor was bombed by Ben Affleck.

Must have been Matt Millen acquistions