MJLiverock

I have a hard time believing calling up Scooter is to put butts in the seats. He isn't Prince Fielder or Ryan Braun, most fans have no idea who he is and I have yet to hear of anyone avoiding a game because Weeks might be playing. I can't imagine casual fans getting excited enough to make plans to go out and see a middling middle infield call up. Claiming Attanasio forced Melvin to do it for attendance is ridiculous in my opinion.

I'd add Tyrion to the list of who I root for. I've read the books though and his character plays a little better there. I also find Jamie much more likable as a character as he struggle with the loss of his hand.

I think the win now approach was perfect, they used the minor league talent to plug the hole, ML pitching and made two playoff runs, one in which they had a legit shot at the WS. Small market teams don't compete forever, they have a window, I don't know how many more ways to show the A's and Twins and Rays haven't been competitive play off teams every year. Good grief the A's just finished off a 5 year period of failing to get above .500. The small market teams have to take their shot when available or perpetually rebuild like the Royals, Pirates. I am willing to accept there may well be 4 years or whatever of no better than 500 ball to put together 4-5 years of above 500 ball. Had the Brewers not traded for the ML pitching they would have stunk for the whole period because they had no pitching at the ML level and their pitching prospects didn't pan out. I agree with a couple of the posters and this is where I differ with Monty and TheCrew07, in that I don't assume there was some better deal for impact minor league pitching that was available. I think he screwed up in the drafting and developing of pitching, he had enough time to generate some ML pitching talent and if he had this argument wouldn't be happening because the offense is decent enough, but the pitching is horrible. I don't assume Melvin is such a complete idiot that he didn't seek out some impact minor league pitching but I just doubt they could get a deal done given the offensive players they had to offer. IIRC most of the Tampa trades (other than Young/Garza) for pitching have involved pitchers going from Tampa as well, not purely position players for impact pitchers which is all Milwaukee really had to offer. There may have been rumors of this guy or that guy but obviously deals weren't done and we all know how often the rumors aren't anything substantial or more of a wish than anything. Bucholz was mentioned at times as untouchable by Boston so other than wishing they would have done Hardy for Bucholz or Melvin saying he would do it I doubt it was a real offer. Teams all know the value of impact young cost controlled pitching so I question how much they could have gotten for any of the Lawrie, LaPorta, Gillespie, Escobar, Cain, Brantley, etc. they gave up. Given they got none back I'd wager the answer is not much. Sometimes the market is exactly right in pricing, you can say a stock or your house is worth X, but it is really only worth what someone actually gives you for it on the day you are looking to sell it. I don't think our overall take on the situation is that different, other than I can't blame the situation on hypothetical trades that may not have any basis in reality since they didn't happen. I do place the blame on the area we can all see they failed miserably at, drafting and developing pitching. They had plenty of drafts to address the situation to where this shouldn't be the issue it is today. The payroll isn't a big worry for me, I just don't think they would have "banked" the money and said if they ran a $50MM payroll for a couple years they would run $150MM payroll in some other years. They don't have a bunch of keys guys looking to hit free agency that they need room for and we have all argued the merits or lack there of in committing big FA dollars to the types of pitchers that reach free agency. I'm not going to worry if Attanasio doesn't make as much money or pay down his debt as much as hoped, too many other things to think about as a fan.

How exactly have they mortgaged the future? By trading away overrated prospects and getting quality Major league pitching in return that netted them playoff appearances and increased fans? Adding back the talent they traded away and taking away Segura/Hellweg/Pena would not place the team in any better situation than they are in now. They'd still have zero top flight pitching prospects. They'd have an underachieving Lawrie at 3rd instead of Ramirez and Cain/Brantley in CF with Gomez likely walking away for nothing or traded for not much a few years ago. Escobar at SS instead of Segura at SS. But still a rotation like it is and maybe more money thrown at aged free agent pitchers. Their problem is they have shown zero ability to develop pitching. Ordorizzi is the only guy who looks to be a serviceable ML starter although not an ace. They weren't going to get Matt Harvey type pitching prospects for any of those guys and I really don't have the confidence in the scouts/Melvin to identify diamonds in the rough. Think back to how excited people were about that Huntsville team with all the talent of Gillespie, Salome, Gamel, Laporta, Green, all of that talent failed and that was just on the hitting side which they've been generally good at. There was a time when the Brewers system was stacked and highly rated, unfortunately most of it failed and very little of it was on the pitching side. The team isn't where it is today because they traded away position players, it is because former top 100 pitching prospects like Jeffress and Rogers failed, highly talented guys like Parra failed, top picks spent on Arnett, Covey, Jungman, Bradley, Heckathorn, Frederickson, Lintz, Adams have produced zilch.

The Rays were about as good as the Brewers during our window. The difference being in the last 5 years the Brewers haven't built up any minor league pitching despite plenty of draft picks and even a few comps. The Sheets/Sabathia debacle hurt but given the track record who knows if they would have done anything more than wasted those picks as well. Had the Brewers shown some ability to draft and develop pitching they would be sitting just fine right now with a decent cost controlled offense and they wouldn't have wasted the money and pick on Lohse. But again I don't think the Brewers problem is because they didn't try and trade their prospects for pitching prospects they would have just been awful for the last 5 years and may not look good now because of how bad they've been at identifying and developing pitching anyway. They could easily have just wasted the talent they got back or been fleeced by some team who knew what they gave up better than the Brewers did. Their problem goes back to failing internally to drafting and developing. Amazingly similar stats for the Brewers Rays from 2008 to 2012: Brewers offense scored 3782 runs, hit .260/.330/.429 Rays offense scored 3783 runs, hit .251/.331/.412 Brewers pitching ERA 4.23, FIP 4.16, xFIP 4.01 with 7.6k/9 and 3.3 bb/9 .298 BABIP against Rays pitching ERA 3.74, FIP 4.04, xFIP 4.05 with 7.4k/9 and 3.1 bb/9 .277 BABIP against The Rays pitching has been better but it seems the defense has helped them a lot more than the Brewers and the Brewers offense has been better when figuring in the DH vs. pitchers component. Now imagine how awful those pitching lines for the Brewers would have been without Grienke, Marcum, Sabathia and instead more Doug Davis's and Braden Loopers, but with still no guarantee they would be sitting any better today.

No that is not my point. The poster was talking about the A's being some model franchise the Brewers should emulate or implying they had done so much better than the Brewers. I was pointing out this model failed to crack .500 for five straight years between playoff appearances and were not competitive for some length of time. Which does help improve the current situation by giving them higher picks which does offer a better chance at getting some elite talent. I disagree with what I think is a romanticized view that the A's and Twins and even Tampa are consistently competing for championships year in and year out. They've all had windows of being good and being horrible. I fully agree it doesn't take high picks only to build a system, it sure helps if you have top 15 or better picks or get some comp picks in addition that was all the reference to the A's meant. I agree with many of your posts that there is value to be had in developing later round guys which makes the Brewers ineptitude at developing any serviceable ML pitching all the more frustrating. One would think they could get lucky once on somebody. I saw your post somewhere detailing all the picks going back 10 years or so and it is amazing how woeful their development process has been. I think the development process has been as bad as just drafting poorly. Plenty of later round guys in the league have been coached or harnessed into serviceable starters or relievers. I would not expect the next Justin Verlander or Matt Harvey in round 5 but they haven't built anything out of those later round pitchers.

Tampa was horrible for a decade before getting to a playoff contender but still no WS banners. They may not even make the playoffs this year. They are definitely in better shape for the near term than the Brewers but I would bet they won't be in the playoffs every year from here out because their window too will close. Oakland made the playoffs in 2 of the last 10 years, I wouldn't say that process has generated much. Tampa is the darling right now but Oakland's process doesn't make me envious. They had their window in the early 2000's and then suddenly they weren't quite as good as before at drafting and developing pitching and had a 5 year period of failing to get above .500. Give the Brewers 5 years of sub .500 draft picks from here and hopefully someone who knows how to draft and develop pitching and they look a lot better. I also don't know that A's have made some amazing trades of ML talent for young pitching, they have had better drafting and scouting, but of course everyone has compared to the Brewers. The A's also play in a pitcher's park so I'd be interested in seeing the road splits for them. Small market teams are going to have windows, they can't keep drafting and developing elite players every time, the hit rates just fall off. The A's have had periods of weakness the Twins have had periods of falling off and the Rays will as well. Just like the Pirates and Royals have struggled for decades. I know it comes down to philosophy that some will never agree on but a team cannot be continually building for the future at some point the future has to be realized because there are no trophies for building the best farm system. I know the Crew07 said earlier he doesn't care about records or the playoff appearances because he takes a very long view. How long of a view is reasonable? Should the team have continued floundering for the past 5 years always building for 2017? or 2020? Especially after 25+ years of irrelevance. There is probably a Pirate fan and a Royal fan somwhere who has applauded their building for the future for the last two decades as well but at some point there has to be a payoff.

Usually the line is pretty long at the stand but at the last game I went to there was no one in the line for the potato so I gave it a try. Easily the best meal I've had at Miller Park for the money. I got the one loaded with brisket, must have been 1/4 pound of shredded brisket + cheese and sour cream on a huge potato.

There were a lot of years there, especially in the early years after the Sexson trade where the team didn't have any veteran players that teams would have given much of a prospect for. I remember they traded Podsednik and Vizaino for Carlos Lee trade as one example where they could have went for younger. They also later traded Lee for Coco and could have went the all prospect route there (although they gave up Nelson Cruz who many on here thought was just a AAAA player and got back Nix and minor league pitcher as well). Brady Clark was never really that good but they traded him for Elmer Dessens and could have went for some A ball prospect. The only other guys they could have really parlayed into much would have been maybe Jenkins and of course Sheets.

By playing the window strategy they actually made the playoffs and maximized the actual major league talent. Had they kept slow playing it for the future the team would have continued floundering at .500 at best much through the prime years of Fielder and Braun. Braun may not have been willing to sign a team friendly contract extension. All of this would have just meant that the last 5 or 6 years would have been just more of the same, bad major league teams and telling fans to wait for the future which may or may not ever arrive. The problem hasn't been them trading away overrated and middling prospects for major league pitchers. The problem has been the complete and utter lack of the team's ability to draft and develop pitching from within. Had they just been a normal or middle ground team they should have been able to produce at least 1 or 2 servicable major league starters in the last 5-6 drafts rather than zero. They've had plenty of time to try and build up something from within on the pitching side after buildinig a decent to above average, contract controlled offense. Milwaukee played their window perfectly at the major league level and completely failed it on the draft. Do you have any faith in the current regime trading for minor league pitching given how terrible they have been at drafting it?

Apparently even Tampa has wasted some first round picks. If people think Lawrie is a punk what do they think of this guy? http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/tampa-bay-rays-prospect-josh-sale-suspended-indefinitely-200730126.html

I agree with the posts that said the trades the team made to position the team in the playoffs a couple times and get as close the WS as anytime in last 30 years were worth it. I have no problem losing out on the prospects they traded off for the playoff pushes and the couple prospects like Segura, Hellweg, Pena, back. Small market teams will always have windows of being relevant and then will disappear to mediocrity or worse again. They just don't have the payroll ability to retain enough of the good to great talent and nobody hits on all their prospects and drafts all the time. The A's have had windows, the Twins have had windows, the Rays have a window and all will sink back to the middle or below. I'm glad I was able to enjoy some relevant baseball in September/October rather than being always hoping for tomorrow like the Pirates and Royals. I don't agree with the premise that the club would automatically be in a better long term position had they traded those prospects for pitching prospects for several reasons. One, teams have been reluctant to trade top pitching prospects for other prospects especially hitters, so there is no way of knowing if any deal could have been worked out. Two, The resulting suckitude of the ML rotation would have meant the team camped out in the bottom of the division and missed out on the prime years of some great ML talent on the offensive side. Also failed to capture fans' attention and money leaving the stands empty and interest low. How likely would Braun have been to take a discount for that team? Three and maybe most telling about the future and where I do agree with posters like TheCrew07 regarding Melvini, would anyone trust Melvin and his staff to have acquired good young pitching prospects via trade? The guys' track record isn't much of an endorsement. He very well have could have obtained some other teams versions of former top 100 prospects like Mark Rogers, Jose Cappellan, Wily Peralta etc. Given Melvin and co.'s track record of identifying pitchers I'm not sold he would have gotten great value back. This takes it back tot he root of the problem, the lack of pitching. Melvin and co. have been great at finding offense and hitters but a scouting department can't be so lopsided in ability/luck/or whatever makes them equally awful at identifying pitching prospects. Losing Sabathia and Sheets with much less compensation than expected was a set back but they did squander that extra pick on pitcher who failed. The Brewers have had almost zero ability in drafting and developing pitching under Melvin, if just one or two of the top two or three round pitchers became average ML starters this team would be in much better shape and a lot this angst and frustration wouldn't exist but they haven't even been able to develop an average or better ML starter beyond Gallardo in all these years. Peralta may get there but isn't yet and hasn't looked like it so far. I'm not talking about developing Cy Young candidates but average ML pitchers. This has forced the signing and in general overpaying for aged middling pitchers. The free agent market is what it is, young guys are offered arby and under teams control, aces or above average under 30 guys are way to expensive for Milwaukee so they end up paying for all that is left, guys on the cusp of decline or guys that weren't that good to begin with (Suppan, Looper, Davis, Wolf) I wasn't on board with the Lohse signing this year, mainly because I didn't think this team was a playoff contender to begin with. If he would have been on a two year deal, fine, they want to spend money just to spend money, that is fine because I don't think they really "bank it" for use in elevating future payrolls, and they needed someone to round out the rotation. But giving up the draft pick and doing a three year plus deferred money to round out the rotation for a non contender was dumb. Especially when they followed it up with a plan of using Gonzalez as a stopgap 1B until Hart returned. Can't say you are all in and going for it when the plan includes sitting on your hands and throwing out an aged weak hitting SS as a 1B for a month or more. This season reminds me of the 2009/10 situation where the team lost Sabathia and Sheets and they tried to convince (and remembering back to the arguments on here were successful in some cases) that they could be a contender after losing their top 2 pitchers and replacing them with the likes of Davis and Looper. So for me the it boils down to the complete lack of ability to identify pitching prospects. I have no problem with the trades, the payroll other than the Lohse signing which goes back to the first sentence. Melvin's done a good job of turning a moribund franchise into something people care about and shown they can draw fans in Milwaukee but it may be time to either find a new GM or find a new scouting team that not be a complete disaster at identifying and developing young pitching internally. I mean c'mon in 9 drafts they've produced 1 average or better major league starting pitcher?

Still find it hard to call it a load of crap. I think we'll have to disagree on the point but see plenty of evidence it isn't a load of crap. I'm not excited about guys that put together a good year or two, or even a Francisco Liriano who managed a couple 100 good/great innings and has been nothing special or hurt all the rest of his time. I just question the assumption the Brewers would be automatically be better off had they traded some of their prospects for other team's prospects while the major league team was as close to being a legit playoff team as they have had for many years. Trades of Laporta, Lawrie,etc. could just as well have netted the current version of players like formerly highly rated prospects Jose Cappellan, Joel Guzman, Ian Stewart, etc. guys that would have made the current club no better than it is only without the playoff appearances, immense increase in popularity, and left them in a state like the Milwaukee Bucks where fans are apathetic. Looking back at the guys the Brewers have traded off I don't miss any of them for what was received. Every guy has his supporters and every guy the team has traded off has brought out somebody claiming this guy is going to be great going back to when when I first started reading this site and Wil Inman got traded. Or how loaded the Brewers AA Huntsville team was a few years back with LaPorta, Gamel, Green, Salaman, Brantley,etc. and none of them have ended up making an impact at the ML level. But basically my point is just that it can't be assumed that the trading off of the Brewer's prospects for other's would mean the team would be in such a better place now given how often those prospects don't work out as planned.

Is there something in Krod's contract that he had to be up in the major's by a certain date (about right now) or he can walk? I assume the club figures they rode him out this far in his comeback that they may as well give him his shot to try and catch lighting in a bottle rather than just let him walk now. I would hope that if he is ineffective they quickly cut him loose and bring up one of the other guys mentioned from AAA.

I'd have to look through every top 100 prospect list to be sure but I'm pretty sure this statement is a load of crap. I just randomly looked at the 2006 list of top 100 prospects and I counted 41 guys who gave at least a couple of quality years of production at the MLB level in some capacity. So 59 or most of the top 100 weren't even worth listing and you think that makes my statement a load of crap? That's also not taking into account how many of those guys you listed haven't been difference makers for 6 years. A number of those guys have had a good year once or twice and fallen off the map due to injury or just plain not living up to expectations. Quickly scanning the 2005 top 100 shows such stalwarts as Ian Stewart, Joel Guzman, Andy Marte, in the top 10. A guy like Casey Kotchman, rated in the top 10 has stuck around but has never been anything special as 1b. I'm just saying you can't assume some prospect is going to be a great player for years to come just because they are highly rated. Many flame out, or become pedestrian major leaguers, not perennial All Stars or even one time All Stars. Every year there is a top 100, some years those players are better than others but there is always a top 100. Look down that list and see how many guys were never much of anything. Sure there are some great ones but there are more guys who never lived up to the hype. About 1/3rd of the top 30 never even became regular major leaguers, so even when looking at guys who should be no brainers for the majors the prospect lists miss a lot on the top talent. http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2005-top-100-prospects-248/

I don't disagree that building some prospects at times it the right way to go but there is no guarantee that a swap of AA prospects would have paid off any better, or that the guy would still be pitching for the Brewers for 6 years. There is a good chance the AA prospect would flame out as most of the top 100 prospects do. There is a list of the top 100 prospects each year but only a few ever make a difference at the ML level. I think it is a bit disingenuous to always assume every prospect that could be had would be great or make a difference for 6 years at the ML level. Melvin had to look at the MLB roster and see about as much offensive talent as could be expected at the ML level for a club like Milwaukee. They aren't going to have hitters like Braun, Fielder, surrounded by Hardy, Weeks, Hart in their primes very often. At some point a team can't constantly be building for the future and has to recognize they have elite talent actually a the major league level and go for it. Especially after 20+ years of futility. I wouldn't trade the runs they made in 2008 and 2011 for a couple more prospects that may or may not pan out. A team like Milwaukee isn't going to have the staying power to compete for a decade because no one hits on all their draft picks forever. They better take advantage of the window when they have elite talent at the ML level. I remember when the A's and Twins were the love of all that is prospect development, neither won a WS, the Twins have fallen off because the couldn't keep the hit rate up on drafting once they fell into the later picks. The A's seem to develop one hit wonder pitchers but play in a pitcher's park and haven't been brining up hitters, sort of the anti Brewers. They too haven't won anything. The Rays, the new darlings, spent a decade drafting in the top 10, and made one WS and haven't done anything more than Brewers other than that, even needing a miracle to make the playoffs one year just like the Brewers. Price is going to get expensive soon and they will have to pay him or trade him, Hellickson is struggling thus far this year. It is hard for small market team to keep the hit rate up on prospect after prospect and trading vets at just the right time, even if the Rays can do it for the next 10 years, they will be the exception. I wish the Brewers had better pitching or better scouting to draft pitching but I'm also happy to have been able to see playoff baseball in Milwaukee and not be in a situation like the Astros as a result. Maybe my expectations are too low but I don't expect any small market team to remain a power for a decade, the numbers just don't work for them. I'd trade a couple playoff appearances and a chance to win the WS (which I think the 2011 team had, not the 2008 team) couple with some sub .500 teams in a decade rather than always being a team with 82-87 wins.

Because in 2010 they didn't have the money used to sign Aram or Lohse available. You can't claim money spent in 2012 and 2013 as money that should have been spent in 2010. The money for ARAM was available because they weren't paying Prince Fielder $10MM+ anymore and the money for Lohse was available because they weren't payinig Grienke, Marcum, and KRod money anymore. If you are going to get mad about not signing FA pitchers I suggest naming which FA pitchers you wanted and how they would have fit realistically in the budget. Drives me crazy when people lament not signing FA's or not trading for guys and then having no plausible deal they passed up or could have made, especially given the FA's are all known. Almost as bad as the rants on RR without offering up a better line up option with the given guys or some drastically better decision that isn't just splitting hairs or using hindsight.

So 5 hits separate them. Neither have hit well on the year not sure why some can't just admit Lucroy hasn't been hitting well. The clutch argument fails with his 1/12 with RISP and 2 outs. Small samples are always going to skew. Weeks was hitting like .270 with the bases empty so should he bat higher in the order because he sets the table? He does get on base better than Lucroy overall even with a sub 200 BA. The howls for putting Lucroy in the 4 hole to replace the struggling Weeks were strangely silent when Lucroys results there were equally bad. Nobody thinks Weeks is doing well but there are people that can admit Lucroy isn't doing much better if at all when the entire body of work is compared.

Coming into today Lucroy was hitting .083 with RISP and 2 outs so I don't how clutch that is. It is a small sample but has to be at least as many or than high leverage situations.

Right but you are one of the posters that turn everything into some sort of rant about the manager, often without any sort of fix other than a complaint or taking a stand that your idea is the only logical choice. I completely disagree with most of those posts but choose to just ignore it knowing nothing will ever be done right in your view.

So Lucroy batting .083 with RISP and 2 outs or .244 with runners on base is clutch? I'd say that is just about as God Awful as Weeks. Lucroy is 1/12 with RISP and 2 outs, not exactly blowing Weeks away at 0-15. Also Lucroy has grounded into double plays 25% of the time when the chance is presented, Weeks 20%. I'd rather Rickie K than hit a weak roller to SS. But even in the productive outs category Weeks is at 21% to 17% for Lucroy so the K's aren't hurting there either. All of these are incredibly small samples but if just used as a comparison,neither are clutch, both have bad batting averages but Weeks does get on base more, advances the runners more, and avoids the double play better. I agree Weeks is in a terrible funk but find it hard to ignore the funk that Lucroy is in as well. It doesn't matter one bit about salary or tradability, no one worries about that in regards to wins or losses, those are just excuses to get on a guy or prop up some equally poor performing player. Sending Weeks to the minors or benching him or even DFA'ing doesn't change his pay. Also Lucroy doesn't get paid below league minimum, no one gets paid below the minimum by definition. He makes $750,000 vs. minimum of $490,000. He gets a bump to $2MM next year regardless of how he does this year and then $3MM, and $4MM and $5MM after that all regardless of how he does, good or bad. The contracts are a sunk cost and just an extension of how baseball works and don't matter a whit to me about how a player is performing. I doubt you were clamoring to give Weeks or Braun or anyone more money when they have years outperforming their deals. At lunch I hear a radio blurb where Lucroy was asked about the struggling Weeks, he gave the usual cliches about wanting him the lineup, fastest bat speed he's ever seen, and added, - - something about both grinding along and said we are in the same boat. Even he realizes he is struggling mightily.

Not sure what salary has to do with anything regarding who is producing or who isn't. 2nd baseman are at least on par with C for being the weakest hitters in the lineup so that negates the C excuse for Lucroy. I find it a bit hypocritical for the all the heat about Weeks batting average while Lucroy puts up a terrible batting average and even worse OBP and he rarely gets mentioned as being a problem, needing to be benched, or moved down in the order, in fact quite the opposite. People complain when he gets days off, or think he should be batting 4th or 5th or even higher in some cases. Lucroy may strike out less but he also has plenty of rolled over ground balls and weak hits, he's got the power of a typical 2b and doesn't walk. I don't know that he'll keep hitting sub .230 but Weeks probably won't stay below .200 either. Lucroy is an average catcher at best yet gets accolades from some like he is some All Star and a great hitter. And the fact is he makes more out than even Weeks so far this year.

Lucroy actually has a lower OBP than Weeks. He has thus far skated under the radar for a lot of criticism because some of the more negative posters on here love him. But Lucroy has been pretty bad this year. People screamed about Weeks hitting in the 4 spot, yet were strangely silent when Lucroy hit .194/.256/.250 in the 4 spot.

Well it was Angel Hernandez. He is one of the few MLB umps I know by name and sight, only due to his complete ineptitude and sheer number of horrible calls and resulting ejections. I should add his astounding level of arrogance makes it impossible for him to overturn a call no matter what video shows, which is why the review has to be made by someone upstairs.

Dbl post