HiAndTight

Not really. There was an anonymous quotes from other teams scouts saying they didn't know that Lawrie was available via trade. However, Zack Minasian the Brewers pro scouting director spoke on the record about talking to his brother, Perry Minasian, the Blue Jays pro scouting director over thanksgiving dinner about the trade. So the trade was first discussed by siblings for the two teams while eating thanksgiving dinner(according to Minasian). Not anonymous and not one quote. However even if it was just scouts from other teams who said they had no idea that Lawrie was available, why doubt that? Of course they're going to remain anonymous as their comments almost always are, and what reason would they have to lie about that?

The thing is we didn't use our relievers any more than anyone else in the league did in April, and our starters were consistently going deep into games. And just about every teams 7th reliever is not very good. They're better than Wang, but they are guys who almost always pitch in games we lose. I've mentioned this in another thread, but I'd like to see our starters each be give a 15 day trip to the DL in the middle of the year to give their arms a rest. That works out even better with Nelson and Fiers in AAA pitching so well. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to try and do the same with our younger relievers who aren't used to pitching multiple days a week. Something may be up with Thornburg, but again, I don't believe this particular game means anything one way or another. We had 3 right handed hitters coming up vs the best closer in the game. Kimbrel's career numbers vs RH'ed hitters; 147/.234/.210 a .915 WHIP and 15.2 K/9. That's over 5 years. He also has a 1.44 ERA and a 1.40 FIP. So while I'm not a fan of the manager saying the game is over down just one run, the Brewers, especially the way they've been hitting, might as well have been down 5 runs.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt it happens 6, 7 or 8 times this year. I don't think a manager should ever give up on a game, but when you've got Reynolds, Maldanado and Davis coming up vs Craig Krimbel...well, lets just say I didn't have a whole lot of confidence they were going to get the job done. It's a defeatist attitude, but..it's also realistic. Save the pen, get Wang an inning and hope for the best. The best closer in the game vs 3 hitters who's collective OPS is under .700, and much, much worse vs right handers, it's a pretty big long shot. You certainly have a valid point and I can understand why this is the type of move a lot of people who aren't real happy with Wang taking up a roster spot, or with Roenicke would be up in arms over this one.

Any chance that Jeffress gets the call at any point this year? It seems to me they're trying to extend him a bit, perhaps so he could come in and pitch multiple innings if need be? He's obviously been a starter. He can still throw the ball with outstanding velocity. His command doesn't appear to be great, but he's most certainly got the stuff. If they choose to leave Fiers and Nelson in the rotation, maybe Jeffress gets the call when Wang has a "sore shoulder," or if Wooten/Kintzler struggle or deal with more shoulder soreness?

Yeah, agreed. And that's not such a bad thing. It was definitely a better deal for the Brewers before Braun's reputation went to hell, but he's still a very good player. He's not going anywhere most likely. Though the idea of Jose and Stanton for Braun has got me thinking that I need to turn on my X-Box again as it's given me a great idea for a trade!

I'm...just totally and completely at a loss here. How is Peralta better than Jose Fernandez by my own measure much less ANYONE'S? Peralta's ERA is 3.85 since the start of last year. Fernandez has an ERA of 2.25 since the start of last year. Peralta has an FIP of 4.16; Whip of 1.37; 9 Hit's per 9 IP; 1 HR per 9; 3.2 BB per 9; 6.4 K per 9; 2-1 K/BB rate. Fernandez has an FIP of 2.59; Whip of .972; 5.9 Hit's per 9; .6 HR's per 9; 2.8 BB per 9; 10.3 K per 9 3.62 K/BB rate. And while wins are a team stat, Fernandez is 16-8 over that time period while Peralta is 15-17 over that time period. The Brewers are 19-21 in games that Peralta has pitched in while the Marlins are 23-13 in games Fernandez has pitched in. Fernandez is 3 years younger, and not only slightly better than Peralta, but MUCH-MUCH better in every single area. The absolute best we can hope for is that Peralta eventually reaches his ceiling and he's close to as good as Fernandez which is unlikely. And for the record, when you finish 3rd in Cy Young voting, win the Rookie of the year, lead the league in fewest hits allowed in the league per 9 innings pitch, AND you post a ERA of 2.19 in 175 innings and 28 starts as a ROOKIE 20 year old pitcher, you are-NOT a prospect any longer. Even with Fernandez injured, he's still by far the most valuable player, not a "throw in," as a prospect to another deal that's highly unrealistic. And since you're placing so much emphasis on how long a player is under team control, keep in mind, it's 5 years for a Cy Young caliber pitcher(not prospect) and 3 years for a 24 year OF'er. Both of whom combined won't cost nearly as much as Ryan Braun will over that same time period, but who will almost certainly be more valuable. So why on Earth would they give up two of the most prized young players in the game for a 30 year old player with a steroid scandal hanging over his head, injuries hanging over him(regardless of how confident you are they'll be fine, it's an awfully big risk for a team trading for him to take, wouldn't you say) when it's going to make them worse, cost them more money, and again, this one you've yet to answer, this is the exact opposite of what everything the Marlins have done over the last 15 years. I'm just at a complete loss as to how to convince you they're not going to do it. It's a fun trade to think about as a Brewers fan, but it's incredibly unlikely in a real world scenario and this is an increasingly pointless conversation.

Agreed. It's foolish to send Wang down at this point. However, out of curiosity, why would you prefer Fiers over Nelson in the pen at this point? Do you prefer Fiers? Do you believe Nelson is the better starter so we're better keeping him in AAA should we need a starter at the ready? I'd kinda like to see Nelson in the pen. He can give us extended innings, and he's more of a power pitcher, and I think could also pitch high leverage situations right now.

I'm at a complete loss as to what would make you think they would do anything like this? Which left handers have they made side arm pitchers? Certainly none who were 22 years old and pitchers that the GM considered equal to the value of a high draft pick, and one whom Melvin just said(I believe it was in Sunday's paper) that they were committed to keeping him on the roster all year long in the hopes of keeping him and developing him as a starter in the minor leagues. The fact of the matter is we were only down 1 run, but we were also facing Kimbrel. 1 run is still just one swing of the bat, but I'd put our chances of winning that game at about 5 percent there. So Wang didn't really hurt much. Plus, it seems as if he's equally likely to give up 0 runs as he is to give up 5 runs. Even if it doesn't pass the smell test, what are they going to do? How do you punish a team for sending a pitcher to the DL with "shoulder fatigue," after a pour outing and have it questioned? Hell, players have gone to the DL and subsequent rehab games in the minors while disputing they were injured. Unless Wang says, "we talked about this and this is the way the Brewers are planning on keeping me on the team, but not on the 25 man," which would be insane for him to do, I don't think there is really any recourse. What's MLB going to do?

Only 6 guys started games for us that year. Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, Gallardo, Narveson and then Estrada. So he was the option to start the year for us, so I can only assume he would have been the guy had they not traded for Marcum. It's purely conjecture at this point. Each move has a ripple affect, but I think it's fair to say it would have been Estrada. Has he gotten hurt, maybe they would have gone with Mike Fiers. He went 13-3 with a 1.86 ERA, .94 WHIP and 9.4 K's per 9 in 2011 in AA/AAA. His AAA numbers were even better with a 8-0 record, 1.11 ERA, 9.6 K's per 9. He threw about 130 innings that year at age 26, so he had earned a chance even at that point. So Fiers could have started, he could have been the guy to take up the slack and be the long man in the bullpen, or they could have made another move for a swing man/5th starter that didn't cost them Lawrie. I obviously can't say with any certainty. The Brewers were 20-23 in games he pitched in that year, and 4-3 in games he started. Obviously that only tells a small part of the story, the fact is he wasn't used as one of their late inning relievers. For the record, the Brewers were 16-17 in games Marcum pitched in that year as well, not counting the 0-3 they were in the playoffs. Well shortly after the trade the Mariners tried to trade Pineda for Lawrie and the Jays turned them down. So I can't say for certain they would have made such a trade, but I do think that had the Brewers actually shopped Lawrie as opposed to just dealing with the Jays, they could have gotten a bigger return. At least Rickey Romero.

If we're going to use extremely small sample sizes to judge what a player is, why not use last year when he posted an .834 OPS while he wasn't platooning? Or who has a .946 OPS in more PA's last year vs RHP'ers than he has total this year. And for the record, while OPS is obviously the best way to judge a players overall ability, I think it's starting to get a LITTLE bit overrated. If Gennett becomes a .300 hitter with a .340 OBP, but slugs just .400, that's just fine for a 2nd basemen. Brandon Phillips, one of the best 2nd basemen during the course of his career has a .748 OPS for his career.

I don't know much about him myself other than he had arguably the biggest arm in his draft class and routinely hit triple digits. I'm not sure why his peripherals aren't more impressive for a guy with such a low ERA and such a big time fastball, but it's definitely encouraging.

I don't agree with that as much as I used to. I don't think the money part is hurting us as much as the lack of talent. I would rather overpay in dollars a bit than in talent. I am not saying go out and win the market on the biggest names like Fielder or Greinke. I think you can get good midrange talent at a decent price. You absolutley have to acquire your top guys through means other than free agency. I wouldn't mind paying Hart this year but I absolutely do not want to give up any useful talent to get him. I agree. And we may be the smallest market, but that doesn't mean we're the poorest team. Our fans spend more per person than any other fanbase in baseball, we get a lot of money from revenue sharing..and we don't have a trash owner like Loria who is happy to sit back and make 30 million dollars a year rather than even attempt to be competitive. Paying more for Hart than we normally would makes more sense than dealing off a prospect.

Well, Stanton has almost 3 years left of team control. This year and then two more. So it's more than just 1 year of control(and by the way, Braun has ~8 years left, 7 after this year with one of them being a team option). Second, how has Jose Fernandez not established himself as an elite pitcher? In 225 innings pitched, he has a 2.25 ERA, .97 WHIP, 10.3 K/s per 9....I'm at a complete loss as to how he has proven he's not elite. Unless the group of "elite," pitchers starts and ends with Clayton Kershaw, he's elite. And even with the Tommy John, he's extremely valuable. I can't keep going back and forth on this, so I'll just leave it here. The Marlins team payroll is 40 million dollars. They CAN afford to sign Stanton if they want, but they likely won't. They're not competitive this year. They have a long history of trading established players who are starting to earn more money for a group of young prospects. So while I hate when people make absolute statements, ie, "never going to happen, not a chance," the Marlins offering the Brewers Jose Fernandez and Stanton for the right to pay Ryan Braun 20 million dollars a year when he's in his mid to late 30's is not going to happen. It's just...kinda a ridiculous. The ONLY single player in the game of baseball worth both Jose Fernandez AND Mike Stanton is Mike Trout. The Marlins will trade Stanton most likely for a package of 3-4 top prospects, and I can't even imagine why they'd consider trading Jose Fernandez at this point. He's 21 years old, proven he's as good as anyone in baseball, and pitchers come back from Tommy John just as good 9 times out of 10. Your X-Box would laugh and hang up the phone if you tried to make a trade like this...there just isn't any reason for the Marlins to possibly want to do this. Simple. You WOULD trade Ryan Braun if you could get better from the trade. He is very good, he is affordable(expensive, but affordable). But if you did drug the Marlins and they offered up Jose Fernandez and Mike Stanton as is currently being argued, of course you would do that. Braun is a great-great hitter. And I am pretty confident he's not going to be traded anyway, so this is all a moot point.

Is that alright though? He was throwing 95-96 pretty consistently to start the year. He's averaged 94 MPH on his fastball. I didn't see the game, so I'm just asking the question.

Offensively, Scooter would be a putrid corner OF. His sub .700 OPS this year is not even passable for 2B. What difference would it make? The argument was we put Weeks in LF and play Gennett at 2nd base. Well Weeks didn't want to. So then the question was asked why not throw Gennett out there in LF. Who cares that his production wouldn't be commensurate with the average corner OF'er? If the goal is to have Weeks and Gennett in the lineup, it doesn't really matter that Weeks OPS is closer to the average LF'er whereas Gennett's isn't. They're both in the lineup in that circumstance. And of course he'd be a platoon guy, so his .751 OPS vs right handers would be a big upgrade vs the .583 OPS that Davis is putting up right now vs righties.

Estrada has an FIP of 4.76 this year. So I wouldn't call him a sub 3.00 ERA pitcher. He's also a guy who throws 88 MPH on his average fastball and has lost roughly a MPH each year he's been here. He's 31 in July and has never thrown more than 138 Innings and has 439 innings pitched in his career. What part of a soft tossing pitcher on the wrong side of 30 who's never started for a full season and gives up HR's at a very high rate makes you think other teams are willing to part with top prospects for? Yes, every team would like a pitcher like Marco. He is an excellent back of the rotation type of guy. But while those teams might want a guy like Marco, they also want and constantly search for good backup catchers, good utility IF'ers. It doesn't mean the value of those players is high. And we have the benefit of having not one, but two pitchers in AAA who are stretched out and more than capable of matching Estada's performance. So no, you don't have to be Cy Young to have trade value...but Estrada also doesn't really check off a whole lot of the columns that teams are looking for in a starting pitcher they're going to give up a great deal for.

I would think the only reason they wouldn't consider this is because they believe Gennett is the 2nd basemen of the future and they're more concerned with his future and confidence. Otherwise it makes as much sense as anything.

His great start at the plate was so refreshing after his struggles last year, but i have wondered how his catching skills are developing or not developing? Obviously it would be more ideal for Coulter to become at least a solid defensive catcher if his bat continues to show good promise given catchers who can hit well are generally rare. That said, if his catching skills don't come along well, i'd hope the organization doesn't wait to long to give him a position switch to learn. Speaking of that, if Coulter eventually shows that he just won't be able to cut it as a catcher, but his bat stays good, would first base be his most likely position to be switched to? I hope they give him at least through next year to work on his defense before moving him unless you move him to 3rd. Other than that, I think he's a good enough athlete that if his bat really forces the issue, he can learn a corner OF spot or 1st base very quickly. Melvin did just recently say that he might get to big to catch(though that doesn't make that much sense to me as he's certainly not fat, or lacking flexibility and Weiters and Posey are both big guys), but they're going to keep him there until he forces them to move him for whatever that's worth. But I'd prefer to let him stay behind the plate as long as possible to see if he can develop. He's very athletic, very quick for a big guy, has a very strong arm. He can square himself up pretty and get in front of balls in the dirt, but he does stab way too often. I haven't seen him miss as many fastballs as Crew has, but I have not seen him play that many times. I just believe that you give a guy like Coulter who has the physical tools more time to develop. It obviously takes catchers longer to develop behind the plate than it does other position players. He's still just 20 years old.

Whoops. Meant Garza, I must be aging, because I am getting horrible with names. Well that certainly makes sense. Yeah, I don't know what they would have done. You're probably right. But, in this alternate universe in which they have Greinke signed for 5 years 100 million because they got the extension done right at the time of the trade, they have a true ace, Gallardo, Peralta, Estrada and Nelson and that would be cheaper than Garza and Lohse(AAV). I think we can all agree that a Greinke/Nelson combo would be preferable to a Lohse/Garza combo that costs an extra 3-4 million per year. Of course this discussion is an exercise in futility. As useful of putting Sonny Gray and Jose Fernandez into our rotation over Bradley and Jungman.

I hadn't realized it was established that Odor would be a more productive player than Profar. Odor has a .550 OPS thus far. Of course he's young and very talented...but I'm not quite sure why it's laughable to take Profar over Odor. Second, I never said the Marlins can't afford Braun. Of course they can. I'm asking at what point in time have the Marlins made the decision to trade for an expensive, aging veteran while giving up elite YOUNG talent? The Marlins payroll is covered by revenue sharing, so what they CAN do and what they're likely to do are obviously different things at this point. They epitomize why big market teams like the Dodgers aren't real big fans of having to hand over 3.4 billion of their 7 billion dollar TV deal to small market teams...which I completely understand. Here's the problem with your entire premise. What am I changing my mind TO? I believe Ryan Braun is a great player. I believe he's a great hitter. I don't know(doubt) he'll ever win an MVP again, or put up the best offensive numbers in the league simply because he DOES have chronic injuries and he's on the wrong side of 30. But I think Braun's a great player. Possibly the best offensive player the Brewers have ever had. And lets assume that he will continue to be an elite hitter without feeling in his thumb. So even if you think Ryan Braun is going to duplicate what he did from ages 25-29 and you ignore the steroid scandal, why on Earth would you rather take on a massive contract and give up one player who's at least close to as good of a RF'er as Braun and a young star pitcher? Put it this way. It's 2006. Vlad Guerrero is someone the Brewers are trying to add so they can win 80 games rather than 75. Just to compare Braun to Vlad, Vlad had a better BA, about 100 more HR's, more SB's, better OBP, SLG and OPS than Braun through their age 30 season. Vlad had an AVERAGE WAR of 5. Braun's has been ~4 through that same time. So at the very least, lets say they are comparable players. Would YOU as a Brewer fan have been in favor of giving up Ryan Braun and our top pitching prospect Yovani Gallardo at the time? Mind you, Gallardo isn't nearly as talented as Fernandez. Oh, and on top of that, we're due to pay Vlad another 130 million dollars for that privilege. What I'm trying to say is that I really don't see why the Marlins would want to make such a trade. That wouldn't have made any sense for the Brewers at the time, and of course unlike Braun and Yo, Fernandez and Stanton are already proven young stars(at approximately the same ages, Gallardo was 20, Fernandez is 21, Braun was ~23, Stanton is 24). It's hardly a perfect comparison, but it's close enough. So I don't think I need to be convinced of anything regarding Braun. He's really good. You don't need to sell me on that. What I don't get is why the Marlins would want him, the scandal surrounding him, the injuries that have started to bother him(regardless of how confident you are that he's going to be just fine, the Marlins likely aren't).

I don't know. What exactly makes you think Stanton is going to sign? But if you're asking me, no, I'd rather not strip down our farm system again so we can pay a guy...what 8 years 180 million dollars? Sorry, not a big fan of that. The Milwaukee Brewers are more than just this years team. The Marlins didn't exactly get a kings ransom for Cabrera and Willis. The two prospects they got back, Maybin and Miller were rated highly, though both were awful in limited major league time. Again, I'm guessing the Marlins use their own scouting farm more than they rely on how highly a publication has a prospect rated.

I'm going to come off sounding like Monty but why should the Brewers ever overpay for anything? I've yet to see you rationally justify an overpay. Why would we overpay for for a 32 year old with a .647 OPS? What does Hart bring that the other 2 guys at 1B don't? If you want to trade for him that's fine but why should Milwaukee give up or take on more salary than he's worth? There's no guarantee he'll ever be the .800+ OPS player that he once was, he may have a year or 2 of nice production like that as he approaches his mid 30s but his knees might also be shot as well. There's very little upside with this move, it's not bold or aggressive, it's just wasteful. On a personal note I wouldn't want to bring him back simply because I don't want to read threads suggesting we should extend him hoping he regains his past form. Many posters and DM have a history of being unable to let to go of players they have a familiarity with... better the devil we know than the devil we don't type of thing. We should be looking to walk away from players in their early 30s, not extend our relationship with them. It was a good move to walk away from Hart and let him sign in Seattle and it would be wise to stay away from him in the future as well. Every dollar spent matters so much more to a team like Milwaukee, the smallest market in the game, than it does the largest markets like NY. Every misspent dollar limits the ceiling of the team, are we really so desperate to prove the franchise is relevant that we need to keep overpaying for bad production from FAs? Overpaying for talent is the absolute worst way to operate a franchise regardless of sport, even in small doses. There is a better way than constantly trying to recycle someone else's castoffs into some useful every day player. It was necessary from 2003-2006 but we should be long past that philosophy by now... and before someone says it, Wang isn't a castoff, the Brewers astutely pilfered him from another organization, that's a completely different concept. 1st, The difference would be that Hart's actually been a very productive big league hitter the last two years he played. Reynolds and Overbay have not been. Using a very small sample size doesn't change that. 2nd, really? You don't want him brought back because you're concerned about threads talking about re-signing him?

I'm with you on the Lohse and obviously Segura, but Parra? I really doubt that would have been an issue. There would have been a ripple affect. We wouldn't have been so desperate for pitching so we likely wouldn't have signed Lohse and had a 1st rounder. Maybe it's Ramirez we wouldn't have. I don't know, but I'm pretty confident the Brewers still would have gone after Parra hard. And just to be clear, I was saying the Brewers should have tried to sign Greinke right after they traded for him. The Nationals did offer an extension with the deal that it sounded like Greinke would have agreed to for 5 years 100 million. Not the 6 year 150 million dollar deal. Why? By all accounts it's been very good in the major leagues. Are you going all the way back to when he was 18/19 and moved to 2nd base and some questioned if he could stay there?

Well it would depend on the team. From Texas I'd start with Jurickson Profar and then hopefully add another top 100-ish prospect. Preferably a 3rd basemen, but really any position player. I can't imagine the Dodgers would make a move for Braun with 4 OF'ers and Gonzalez at 1st, but Joc Pedersen and Van Slyke and perhaps a young arm. The Mariners, I'd like someone like Walker...but they have enough good prospects that you could easily work out a deal. I'd like Ackley back in that deal after an elite prospect just because I believe in giving former elite prospects a shot if they're still young just because I believe they often put too much pressure on themselves given the expectations the fan base has for them. The old change of scenery. No clue who I'd ask for from the Angels or the Red Sox.

That's the key. If we only had one pitcher in AAA who looked like he could pitch as well as Estrada it'd be a bigger risk. Having two of them allows us to trade someone like Estrada. In a perfect world Garza would pitch well and a team like Texas would try to re-acquire him after suffering injurires, but I think that's unlikely. As for Morris, I think Overbay gets until ~June 15th. If he doesn't show us anything by then(assuming Morales isn't a Brewer following the draft) I think he gets his shot. But is moving Estrada really that big of a trade? My concern is that we wouldn't get a big upgrade from Reynolds at 1st anyway for Marco. He's given up a league leading 10 HR's and has an FIP of 4.77. And without any history of pitching a full season, what are other teams really going to offer for him?