HiAndTight

Rickie Weeks wasn't given a contract extension in his pre arbitration years. And neither was Carlos Gomez. Though I can't even fathom how one would argue that the jury is still out on that deal. The return we could get for Gomez in a trade right now would be astronomical and he's one of the top 5-10 overall players in the game. And while this isn't the point because Suppan's even further removed from the types of deals we're talking about, the deal he gave Suppan based on his numbers was right in line with the market. The 3 years prior to signing Suppan, he'd thrown 572 IP, posted a 3.95 ERA and was huge in the post-season for the Cardinals. Hindsight tells you what an awful deal that was, not his numbers prior to signing. Look at the signings that year. Suppan's deal was in line with the market. And it's pretty public at this point, but Attanasio was the one who initiated the Suppan deal, NOT Melvin.

A couple of those seasons were because the Brewers couldn't decide if they wanted him to start or relieve, and/or they thought he was the sixth best starter so they put him in the pen. Last year it was because he pulled a hammy running. Never had any arm trouble. What would you offer for a pitcher who last year was 29th in the league in K/9 and 13th in the league in WHIP among all pitchers with at least 100 IP? He's going to be 31 years old on July 5th and has 408 career major league innings. Again, 31 year old, never thrown more than 138 innings pitched, average FB velocity of 88 MPH. What would I give up for that? Not much. Not Jimmy Nelson. Not for a team like the Brewers that needs to develop it's own pitching.

Well, as someone who never really understood the Overbay addition, I'm all for that. But those are very logical little tweaks. Hard to argue with either. You could also use Green to give Ramirez a day off as he's not going to be able to play 155 games. In fact, 145 should be their aim at this point I would think. Taylor Green's shown enough that he can be part of a platoon(though he's hitting .265, not .365). Still, works for me. Who would you then advocate hitting 2nd vs lefties? Weeks hoping that maybe he can draw some walks and at least get on base at a decent clip for the time being? Or just move Segura back into the 2 slot vs lefties?

I like Porter. And I also think what he did was kinda stupid and childish(which of course is nothing like most MLB "measuring contests." It's Houston though. They need a manager to give them a chip on their shoulder and light a fire under them, and to help the young guys develop some confidence. Edit-Had this been Tony LaRussa, I would be advocating a 162 game ban!

Cute idea in practice? Kinda like Dan Uggla and Johan Santana were "cute ideas?" And before you try and argue that he's not Johan Santana, he's got as much in common with Santana at this point as he does with Matt Ford. I don't care what Matt Ford did in the slightest as it concerns Wang, and the logic that because he's potentially going to get hit around in the big leagues means he's going to never make it is just utter nonsense and ignores the dozens and dozens of pitches who've thrived after getting knocked all over the park in the big leagues. Wang has made no secret of the fact that he's facing an uphill battle and that he wasn't MLB ready. As for your "find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development," please explain to me when that stopped including scouting other teams young pitching? Seems to me this is just one of a number of ways to acquire young arms and it'd be foolish to give up on it after TWO-INNINGS. Two weeks ago I thought Wang was a guy who had the potential to develop into a really nice pitcher. That he had a plus change, good velocity and that he needed development with his third pitch and experience. Please explain to me what has changed after 6 outs? This type of logic is what leads a team to make hasty moves like trading Grant Balfour for Seth McClung.

I would really hope you wouldn't try and say you've called anything as you've spouted off a lot of nonsense regarding Wang, even suggesting at one point that they'd open the season with him as their closer. Second, it's not "defeating," to have a rule 5 prospect get rocked unless you're a defeatist(which if you're anything based upon your posts, it's just that). Third, you're honestly asking if we make it through the year with him on our 25 man roster, if we hide him and are able to weather the storm, are we going to put him on our 40 man roster next year? No, we're going to deal with all the complications that come with keeping a guy with talent, but who otherwise would be pitching in A ball this year through the season only to essentially give him up next year in the rule 5 again. No, I would assume we'd protect him. But this is a question that is coming about 6 months early. I'd also suggest that we wait a bit before making assumptions that we'll be lucky enough to be able to carry him all year long, but I fear that would fall on def ears as you've made numerous wild assumptions every step of the way with Wang and have no expectation of that stopping at this point.

I don't see how we can even begin to guess as to when Victor Roache is going to contribute to the big league team. I think right now the odds are a lot stronger that he will never turn into a viable big league starter than they are that he's going to be ready to contribute to a team that's looking to contend next season. He's in HiA right now(and struggling at the moment, though he's had very few at bats). PrinceFielderX1, have you personally watched him play a lot? I'm just going off scouting reports and a couple of games I watched him play and I'm just not seeing the can't miss prospect you seem to be. I have far more confidence in Tyrone Taylor and others than I do in Roache at this point. Though he is a guy who if he hits and reaches his ceiling, he could be a stud for us. But I would think further down the road than you are. As for Aramis Ramirez, he has an option. A mutual option. He can earn 14 million next year(which I would assume the Brewers would pick up if he has a big year) but on the flip side, if he's having a big year, he'll likely opt out and try to get another 3 year 40 million dollar deal. Any trade would mean that the team getting him wouldn't be able to offer him arbitration. So if you're talking about trading him this year he may well have quite a bit of value for a contender with a need at 3rd, but if you're talking about next year, I'm assuming if he's playing well enough to net a top tier pitching prospect, he's playing well enough to opt out. I'm not going to go any further down the Estrada rabbit hole other than to reiterate the same question. What would you give up for a 31 year old starting pitcher with an average fastball of 88 MPH who doesn't have one single season he can look back on in which he pitched more than 138 innings.

Yet your counter argument is that Scotter Gennett in 7 AB's has as many hits vs left handers this year as Rickie Weeks does in 17? Are you just going out of your way to take things out of context Bombers? A-Who ever said they had a problem with Scotter Gennett? I love the kid. Part of the reason I love him is because I was excited when I saw where we picked him. I've followed him all the way up as many on this board have. You're confusing a lack of blinding love and over exuberance with, "everyone having a problem with Ryran Joseph Gennett." B-reillymcshane said: Do you see how that comes off quite a bit differently than, He's a guy who doesn't draw a lot of walks and he doesn't hit for power. But he's had a good batting average. Don't try and frame what he said as though he hates him or turn it into anything other than it is. That IS the type of player that Scooter Gennett is and has been thus far in his career and he's done a very good job at it. If someone said the same thing about Ichiro, they would have been right. He hit for a high BA and did little else, ie, didn't hit for power and didn't draw a lot of walks. Scooter Gennett has been a very nice player. I wouldn't say ANYONE who's hitting a light .295 with a .704 OPS has been "excellent," but that's a really nice start for him in his second year at 23 years old. But I also wouldn't discard his history of struggling vs left handers and make him a full time player because he has 2 hits this year vs lefties and Weeks has 2 in 17 at bats. Weeks AB's incidentally coming vs very good lefties for the most part and he's sporting just a .154 BABIP with only 3 K's, so I'd expect his line vs lefties to improve closer to his career average. Or hell, even if he just hits lefties as well as he did last year he SHOULD provide a better option vs left handers than Gennett. Weeks 2013 vs LHP=.705 OPS Gennett 2014 =.704 OPS Of course players can change, they can mature, they can struggle and a whole @#$%load of things can happen in between.

I literally used the words that it's not about sample sizes or something you can quantify. You're taking only part of my response towards Braun. To be honest the last time I looked Braun's SLG was at .568, above his career numbers, and his OPS was much higher than just under .800. And I would be far more surprised at this point if there wasn't a list of all star caliber players who were off to terrible starts than if there was. In fact I never even mentioned stats. What I mentioned was how his swing and at bats looked to me on a daily basis. His mannerisms. The way he seemingly gets his bat started earlier, winces when he tries to check his swing. Which is why I said it was my belief that he was starting his bat earlier to compensate which was why he wasn't drawing as many walks. Now he had a big night last night. But he himself has said that his thumb is better some days than other. And one day isn't going to change my opinion as to how his swing has looked as a whole thus far. I only hope that he continues to perform as he did last night to alleviate any of my concerns. But his given stats in relation to anyone elses this early has literally nothing to do with any concerns I have for him.

That's an awfully pessimistic outlook. The Bradley Center was built for Hockey. The sight lines and the construction of the building was to try and draw a NHL team first and foremost. Miller Park was built with longevity in mind and the stadium board and Mark A have done an outstanding job updating Miller Park and continually improving it. County stadium lasted almost 50 years and that was just a cold, cookie cutter type stadium. Miller Park is a beautiful building with the potential to continually evolve. It's no Lambeau Field, but my guess would be that the future home of the Brewers is going to follow a path far more similar to Lambeau. If a new owner comes in perhaps they'd want significant upgrades. But Milwaukee isn't going to be building a new 500 million dollar NBA arena and then a 2nd state of the art Baseball Stadium within 25-30 years(which would line up with your 10-15 year time frame).

I might do that or invest heavily in the businesses on the Brewers leased property the as soon as I feel this economy "starts" to boom or the Brewers announce a major development plan. We are a few years away. Either way I'll help the Brewers franchise directly this way and in a bigger way than buy full season tickets. However, by helping businesses around miller park I can help a person and their family greatly and as much as I want to be a minority owner in the Brewers it's more profitable and I can help more people this way. I just received 20 million in my uncles will, he has no children and he was rich and me and him were very close more than anybody except his brothers, and he knew I was good with money and knew I knew how to invest, so he gave me this in his will. My father his brother got 40 million, so I could partner with him and do something really spectacular around Miller Park. I'll get in touch with Rick I'm sure he'll listen to me or give me a meeting to hear what I'm willing to offer when he hears about what I'm prepared to spend. I also make $650,000 a year owning my business and that in a down economy. Sale business. I love Milwaukee and think there will be great investment opportunities around The Bucs arena and Miller Park. I'd rather invest in Miller Park first due to all the fans that show up and it's my favorite team. We will see how things go. What are you even talking about? What part do you not understand? This entire discussion has been about how long Miller Park will be viable and then became about investing and building up the surrounding area. PrinceFielderx1 has been talking(pretty clearly I might add) about his desire to be a part of either the Brewers ownership group, or in what he believes will become the businesses surrounding the building.

Well that would depend on why a player struggles to throw strikes. Did he not put enough effort into his craft as the result of a lack of maturity? Or, as is the case with a great many power arms is that they give up a little velocity at times in favor of command later in their careers. So they may very well go hand in hand here.

17 games into the season, and a franchise-record-tying 3-HR game is cause for concern, eh? Tough room. It's not always about sample sizes or things that you can quantify. Anyone can see that Braun's not swinging the bat anywhere near how we've seen him swing it in the past. There is no bigger concern for me right now for the Brewers than Ryan Braun. A big part of it is because they don't even know if a surgery is going to fix the problem...but they do know it could make it worse, and he just doesn't look like the same guy. He's got to get his bat started earlier..at least to my eye and that's leading to more guess hitting and he's not drawing walks or showing his normal patience. If Wily Peralta came out and was throwing 89 MPH, but had put up 4 really good starts and one of them was a shutout, there would be cause for concern, wouldn't there? Then of course there is the part that is concerned that everyone is going to blame any drop in numbers to PED's.

Mark Reynolds has hit .240 or above 2 times in his 7 year career. The last time was in 2009, and since then, hasn't even come close to that average. 2010 - .198 2011 - .221 2012 - .221 2013 - .220 To think he even sniffs .240 again as a 31 year old whiff machine is high hopes if I have ever seen them. He may hit 25+ homers, but if he is our regular 1B, he will come awful close to 200 Ks as well. Signing him was a desperation move, nothing more. We are far from ok with him in this line-up long term. I'm just glad that our line-up is good enough that we can afford to hit a lame duck in what should be a run producing position like 1B, and since our line-up is solid, we can bat what should be a run producing position player like Reynolds in the 7 or 8 position... Imagine if we had a legit 1B that could hit for a decent average, strike out a league average, and still hit 25+ homers... Our line-up could be pretty deadly. Oh, and I am fine with Gennett playing without a platoon partner. I'd rather give the at bats to him than watch an over the hill has been like Weeks flail away. There is nothing gained by letting Weeks have 4 or 5 at bats a week. All it does is take at bats away from a guy that could be manning 2B for the next 3 or 4 years. Weeks serves no purpose on this team right now, and all he is doing is taking up a bench spot that should be used for someone who isn't one dimensional and can only play one position. He's a .233 career hitter and he's always been a guy who strikes out a ton. I just meant to say that he's a streaky hitter and right now he's in a cold streak. I said .240-ish. Sure, it could be .220. But during the same time period you mentioned, he also had a OPS of .760 and averaged 28 HR's a year. So he'll be better than he is right now. That's all. I was just throwing the .240 off the top of my head. But in general I agree with everything you said about him. He was signed out of desperation. But he was also signed and made the team because he was the best option available. I don't know what at this point has changed. I did say that we could make a move similar to what the Pirates did late year when they traded for Morneau. The 1st basemen you're talking about would be ideal. You could throw him into the #5 spot, hit Luc 2nd, let Segura get hot lower in the lineup, bump Davis down until he can start to get on base more. And we missed out on that player when the White Sox gave him 6 years and 68 million dollars! I do totally disagree with you regarding Gennett. He's really bad vs left handers. Weeks is still a better option vs left handers than Gennett. So I think he does still serve a purpose. The question is how significant is that purpose. If we could add a utility IF'er in the mold of Jerry Hairston all the better, but teams generally don't part with useful utility guys before May. The best solution I can see to the 1st base situation at this point is to ride with Reynolds and Overbay until June 5th and then see if you can grab Morales for 6-7 million for the rest of the year. I really don't want to see us giving up anything of value from an already barren farm system for a 1st basemen.

who said anything about getting a lawrie-type prospect for Estrada? going into 2011 baseball America had him at 40 and IIRC many other lists had him a top 25 prospect. there's plenty of guys 50-75 that I don't think would be outrageous to think Estrada would get in return (nick Williams, arismendy alcantara, matt Davidson, devon travis, etc..). The original post literally asked if we could "pull off a reverse Marcum type deal." That's who said something about Lawrie. I think the amount of respect a 31 year old starting pitcher with a history of not being able to start a full season with an 88 MPH fastball is ridiculous.

Yes...this is a double-edged sword though. I think the Brewers will be too close to competing this year to make a move of one of our 1-5. While I think this would be the most beneficial to the long term, I doubt Melvin would actually do this. In fact, I would be hesitant to do it unless it brought back a prospect or player that would be close to a guaranteed producer at 1B or 3B in the long term. Ultimately, I think Estrada may have more value to us than what we could realistically receive in any trade. I don't see us acquiring anything more than a Delmonico-type prospect. I think you are underestimating Estrada's value. The White Sox got Adam Eaton for Hector Santiago and Estrada's track record is more impressive than Santiago's. Not saying Eaton is great, but he's a decent leadoff hitter with on base skills. No, the White Sox did NOT trade Adam Eaton for Hector Santiago. Tyler Skaags, Trumbo, and several others players were involved in that three team trade that was far, far more complicated than Adam Eaton for Hector Santiago. With that said, Santiago is 26 years old left handed pitcher, Estrada is 30, and Santiago has a better arm, threw more innings at age 25(149) than Estrada ever has, and their projections for this year are nearly identical. The difference is Santiago still has upside, throws in the low to mid 90's where Estrada throws in the upper 80's. As a Brewers fan, would anyone really give up a good prospect for a 30 year old starting pitcher who's average fastball is 88 MPH, is a fly ball pitcher, and has never had one full season as a starting pitcher in the big leagues at this point, and will cost ~5 million dollars next year? Estrada has very-very little trade value except for a smaller market team that would like to upgrade the back of it's rotation in my opinion, and other than comparing his numbers to Gallardo's without taking into account how incredibly reliable Gallardo has been and how unreliable Estrada has been, I've yet to see one reason why that's not the case. Estrada has been throwing the ball well and is a nice guy to have to give us good innings as our #5 starter(yes I realize he's slotted in as the #4 in the rotation right now) and he allowed Nelson and Thornburg more time to develop or be used in other roles. Beyond that, he's just another guy. He's just not that special. Certainly not someone you're going to get a can't miss 1st or 3rd basemen for. And of course, many of the D-backs trades have been pretty universally blasted because they seem to trade their prospects based on how they value them as opposed as to how they're valued by other teams.

None of this is all that surprising(other than Braun as I thought his thumb issues were gone and he was going to be healthy heading into the season). 1B-Just as Reynolds BA has dropped under .200, he'll get hot again and it'll shoot back up. I doubt he's going to hit .280, but I expect him to hit .240-ish and if he gets 450-500 AB's, ~hit 25 HR's and put up decent power numbers. Maybe we make a move like Pitt did last year for Morneau. A smaller move later in the year, but short of that, I think we're just stuck. As far as moving Braun there, I don't get why anyone thinks it's this terrible idea. The argument that because he was bad at one corner IF spot he'll be bad at another holds no water for me. Braun had little trouble getting to balls, he just couldn't make the throws. At 1st, he doesn't have to very often. But that's not a fix for this year. SS-Segura's shown enough that he's the guy for this year and there really is nothing they can do there. LF-I'd hoped Davis would start quicker, but for a guy given his first full time job who's not an elite hitter, it's not a shock that he's being overly aggressive early on. But clearly he needs to start walking. 2nd-Gennett has to have a platoon partner. The problem with Weeks is that he doesn't strike me as the type of guy who can do much with sporadic playing time, and he has shown nothing to earn more playing time. I'd keep him for now, but if you can add someone from a team that's out of it later in the year... So maybe you just wait until we're closer to the quarter point and then decide what to do with Weeks. This team had obvious flaws and I doubt too many on here have really changed their opinions on any of the players save for maybe a guy like Thornburg. We also have issues you haven't mentioned. Aramis Ramirez has been playing a lot and has been on fire. I don't think that it'd be that big of an outlier for him to have a big year given how healthy he looks, but it's even more likely he tweaks something and then has to deal with that the rest of the year. The one thing that I do take exception with is the example someone used with the Pirates trading for Ike Davis and then twice said, the Pirates aren't sitting on their hands like the Brewers do. I don't think the Brewers "sit on their hands," especially when their competitive. In fact, if you take away the teams in another stratosphere(LAA teams, NYY) financially, the Brewers are more aggressive and more apt to make changes than others. It'd just be absolutely foolish to do so this early. And of course sometimes sitting on your hands is wise. I'm sure glad Melvin's hands are warm and Thornburg is still throwing pitches in a Brewers uniform than do "a little thing to help."

YES!! Yes it is possible. Marcum had 2 years in which he threw 200 innings(195.1, 200.2) as well as a couple years where he threw more than 150 innings and a 124 inning year with the Brewers. Estrada has thrown 138 and 128 innings in his two best seasons. I just do not get the love for Estrada. I understand the respect and that he's pitched well when he has been healthy, but he's held to SUCH a high standard by some on here that...I just think they're unreasonable. Even some suggestions we could get a top 20 prospect for him. If you were the Brewers, would you give up any of your better prospect, much less a Thornburg(who's nowhere near a top 20) for a 30 year old pitcher who has proven year after year he can't make 30 starts or throw even 175 innings?

I'd agree if he hadn't already proven himself at AAA & (in a small sample that also passed the eye test) MLB. He needs to be facing MLB hitters, and is a massive help to the MLB club prior to the time he'll inevitably be needed as a SP. For me, all that greatly outweighs the baggage of him not being stretched out right away. If he's hurting the team indirectly later on by not being stretched out, he'll surely have offset that & more by pitching effectively from the 'pen. I would STILL agree with that if his changeup hadn't looked so good this year. At his point, what is going to help Thornburg out more? Working on his pitches? He seems to be throwing them seamlessly in all counts in high leverage situations late in the game, and his change has been so nasty that however he improved it, I don't see much need in improving it more. I'm not a pitching coach or a scout, but the only reason at this point from a developmental standpoint to keep him in the minors would be to keep him stretched out in my opinion.

It seems like our entire staff has more guys throwing really effective changeup's than in the past. That and/or really improving their change as Thornburg has done this year(I liked him coming into the year, but if his change can continue to be a plus pitch, he could be a legitimate #2/3 starter). Wang looked good though. I would assume his ability to start or be more than a loogy would hinge on his ability to develop a 3rd pitch as his fastball doesn't move enough to get by just on that and his change, but with some of the craptastic guys we've had as our 7th BP arm, he should be alright all year if we use a strategically placed DL stint(or two) in there.

Wait for what? To wish we'd have been able to sign him? We're talking about a prospect. Not everything has to come with the obligatory 400 at bat sample size before you can watch a guy and come to the conclusion he looks really good and is likely to be a very good big leaguer. Cespedes looked great and worth the money his rookie year. Last year, not so much. Well, he signed a 4 year 36 million dollar deal and he's put up a WAR of 2.9 and 2.3 his first two years. That seems to be a pretty decent deal for the FA market. But setting him aside, I'm not saying that Abreu is going to be a superstar, nor do I think anyone else has said as much. But if you're going to spend money on Cuban players or Latin American players, you're going to be taking a risk. Having watched Abreu, and I'm sure the Brewers scouted him, he looks to me like he's going to be a legit power hitter. And if you wait until a guy has played 2 years to determine if he's worth 10 million per, you're just taking yourself out of the conversation for most of the elite players from Japan or Cuba(especially moving forward with the current TV bubble pumping cash into MLB like the FED).

I don't agree regarding Segura. I think, particularly as of late that Segura has been hacking at some bad pitches. He's looked lost to me against sliders as of late. Braun is another guy. I know that his SLG is almost right at his career average, and his batting average looks alright, but he looks like his thumb is really bothering him and that he has to decide earlier if he's going to swing leaving him guessing and looking bad at times. Perhaps I'm in the minority here. As for your guess, I won't be the one to prove you wrong, but it seems to me that when you go back to some of those teams in the 60's, there were some lower team OBP's. The Pirates were the first to jump out at me, but as it turned out, they had a team OBP of .335 which was 1st in the league(1 of 8) in 1960. I'm with you in terms of when to attack and when not to though. You can't argue with the fact that they've jumped on good pitches early and they've gotten big hits without drawing a lot of walks. I just hope it evens itself out because I don't think it's sustainable. But it's the flip side to the situational approaches you're talking about, and if you're facing guys like Cliff Lee, or Liriano when he's on his game, you have to attack them early in the count or they're going to get head and put you away. Wainwright is another pitcher you have to take that approach with.

That was the assumption I made, but if you look at the contract he signed, he'd actually only cost us about 3 million more this year than we're spending at 1st base. He's making 7 million this year and without looking up the exact numbers, I know Reynolds has 2.5 million and Overbay has a 1.5 million dollar deal...and there are some incentives in there. So perhaps the Brewers would have done both. Especially with the money coming off the books in the next 2 seasons. And K-Rod would likely have in more danger of not being signed than Garza given the makeup of the contracts. But it's all just conjecture since Abreu signed with the White Sox.

Wait for what? To wish we'd have been able to sign him? We're talking about a prospect. Not everything has to come with the obligatory 400 at bat sample size before you can watch a guy and come to the conclusion he looks really good and is likely to be a very good big leaguer. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not looking at a stat line and saying, "wow, this guy is good." I think most people who've watched him can come to the conclusion that he has all the requisite skills to be a productive big league power hitter. I don't know what that means exactly in terms of a stat line throughout an entire MLB season, but I do know that he'd be well worth the additional ~7 million dollars that he'd cost us, and the additional roster spot.

Having caught a couple of his games, I really wish we'd have been able to sign him. It would have obviously cost us Garza, but with the way Thornburg has developed a bugs bunny change this year, I think we might have been as good in the starting rotation and then been able to add a good, legit middle of the order bat at our biggest position of need.