HiAndTight

I couldn't disagree more. His defense is just awful. The guy lacks any range. I think that Weeks at short would be fairly comparable.

Probably not. But there are three guys, two of which to my way of thinking are fairly easy to demote and or DFA. Counsell would be tougher because I still think he can bring value to this team. But McGehee should go down, Wilson should be cut, and if we were to get Barmes and Carroll, in a perfect world, Counsell should be DFA as well and bring up Green. I agree, that type of overhaul is likely-UN-likely.

Don't really buy that - for example, I think we could have got a bit more than Carlos Gomez for Hardy had he been traded 1 year previous to his bad year. Also, just because certain players had equal value or close to it doesn't mean that the asking price from 2 different teams will be anywhere close. I don't think the Rays would have took that package without Ax being included and I'm still not sure they would have then, would have depended on their interest in Escobar. I'm still shocked the Royals took the package they did and I think it would have been far more difficult to match up with the Rays and I think they would have asked for more. Agreed. I can also get behind the argument that we got Greinke for cheap, and that the Rays may have been more demanding with regard to Shields. So perhaps in that regard Shields would have cost more. Maybe. But I still maintain that you were talking about two different levels of pitchers coming into this season. Greinke I think was significantly more valued than Shields.

Carroll and Barmes might be necessary though. Both of them are needed here and getting both could be absolutely huge. In a dream world, get both, call up Green and platoon Green and Carroll. Maybe not a strict platoon, and more of a 50/50 platoon with Carroll getting a chunk of starts vs right handers as well. But the bench and both starting spots are upgraded. I don't really see a big weakness on this team if that was to happen.

Also, HiAndTight a 10% walk rate is well above the league average for the last several years, so saying if he could "even" manage a 10% walk rate isn't maybe the best phrasing. Braun's last 2 seasons at 8.1 and 8.2 are definitely respectable especially considering he's lowered his strikeout rate to 19.1 and 17.0 Yeah, but we're not talking about a league average player. We're talking about a #3 hitter, which I would guess raises the average to much closer to 10 pct, and we're talking about one of the best hitters in the game IMO. So I'll stand by that phrasing. He's an exceptional hitter, but I really don't see him being thought of as one of the all time greats. If he keeps up his current pace though, he should have a decent chance at making the Hall on the first ballot. Perhaps not, but I'm hoping to see a bit of a bump from in his prime years, much like the one we're seeing this year. I've already stated what I think he's capable of. And if he could steal 30 bags a year over his prime years(27-31) there is something to be said for that as well. And with respect to your list, I think you've got two players on there who could end up being in that elite, elite group of hitters in Pujols, who may go down as one of the top 6-7 hitters of all time and one of the, if not the best RH'ed hitter ever, and Cabrera who is on a level just below. Though I have much less confidence in the later maintaining. Finally, with regard to Kaline, that may be a good comp, but it's still my hope that he can finish up a notch above him.

Yeah, but Braun is 27 years old. There are a number of ways his career could go obviously, but as a guy who's always thought of Prince as the better offensive player...and he still may be, the fact that Braun has upped his walk total I think could be a complete game changer for him. IF he can get to that 13pct and stay there, I think you're looking at some monster seasons. .300+/.400+/.600. Taking more walks, more pitches for great hitters usually translates to better pitchers, and Braun can punish that middle in fastball as well as anyone.

There is only one guy in baseball with an OPS over 1.000 this year. Braun has the 4th highest OPS in baseball right now. 40 HR does seem out of the question.Yeah, but he's saying he wants to see Braun end up as an all-time great. I don't think he's being unrealistic. Braun's amazing. If you were talking about Weeks, or anyone in baseball right now not named Miguel, Albert or...I guess maybe Adrian, it's probably unrealistic. The OBP is the thing that's going to really be the deciding factor for me if he's "just" a HOF type player or if he's one of the true greats. Top 20 or so of all time. It's actually amazing to me that he's been able to up his BB rate into the teens...though he's fallen off a bit and I think he's around 11% or so now. If he can stay there, the sky's the limit for him. It kinda reminds me of the same arc that Vlad's career took. Though I hope Braun can stay a little stronger though his latter years.

Corey Hart has nothing on what Carlos Beltran has done in his career...not just THIS season. Hart will never be the player Beltran was. Not even close. There was a thread on the Cardinals board in which several suggested he was merely thought of as a good player because of his Astro's playoff performance...which is absurd. He's been a great player for long stretches in his career. Better than Braun has at any point...(at each players best).

I assume all things really comes down to one being a rental, because Beltran's so clearly a superior player to Hart.

If we're going to spend a ton on a SS, and one from the White Sox at that, I'd rather move Beckham back to his natural position and grab him. Though it'd be tough to go wrong with either given how terrible Betancourt is.

There any reason for this other than...he's Japenese and it's Milwaukee? Ie, just a guess? During free agency Kuroda wouldn't even consider any of the teams that were not on the west coast specifically in Los Angeles. There are rumors he may waive his no trade but I don't see him waiving it to go to Milwaukee it is basically New York or Boston he would do it for. I don't see him waiving it for the teams interested in him like the Indians, Tigers, or Rangers.Per MLBTR-http://www.mlbtraderumors...geles_dodgers/index.html The Dodgers believe Kuroda can be persuaded to waive his full no-trade clause, wrote Knobler. I am guessing a financial incentive in the $1-2MM range might compel Kuroda to pitch in the midwest or on the East Coast for a few months.

I'm not getting into the whole walk rate argument again. I will say that no one can draw a walk unless the pitcher gives it to you. You haven't seen guys up there who foul off 3-4 pitches before earning a walk? You haven't seen guys who consistently have high walk rates? Are they just luckier or what? I don't understand why when a pitcher has a high walk rate, it's on them, but when a guy like Counsell has a decent OBP, somehow he is adept at getting on base. So then what is it with Counsell? And by the whole, why is it you continually go back to referencing Counsell in this discussion? Do you honestly think the bottom dropping out for him is going to make the argument that walks aren't as important more viable? How has that worked for him lately? Not exactly conclusive evidence against the importance of OBP. How is Beane doing with his high OBP players like DeJesus and Crisp in Oakland? 13th in the A.L in runs and 12 in OBP. But this is because the rest of the league has caught on and these guys are no longer 'undervalued', right? Not sure what your point is here. Not sure when Crisp has EVER been known as a "high OBP player," and the fact that they're low in OBP AND Runs scored would seem to support the argument that OBP has a direct correlation with ones ability to score runs, wouldn't it? Thereby cutting your own argument off at the knees?

The last I've seen, the Rays aren't going to trade Shields. And this would be buying high, which we probably don't have the pieces for anyway. It'd be great to get him. He's a very nice pitcher, with a very affordable contract, but not likely for the haul it'll take.

There any reason for this other than...he's Japenese and it's Milwaukee? Ie, just a guess?

I said nothing of his value dropping because of a bad year, I don't believe his value was nearly as high in 2010, 2009, 2008. Two different pitchers going into last year. Greinke in 2008, 2009 and 2010 had WAR's of 4.9, 9.4 and 5.2. Shields in 2008, 2009 and 2010 had WAR's of 4.1, 3.9, 2.2. So...I think it's ridiculous to suggest their values were even comparable, it's not a knee jerk reaction to anything other than the totality of their careers. Though the lesson on how to evaluate players is surely appreciated....

Willie Mo and Katin seem to be on two different levels though. Both have the great raw power, but Willie Mo has proven it time and time again, and though it may not seem like it, is only one year older. I'd love to get a guy like Pena coming off the bench. He'd be pretty ugly getting more than a handful of starts in the field, and that would be stretching it unless someone got hurt, but as a PH'er and then in the long shot that the Brewers make the WS as a potential DH option, that could be big for the Brewers.

I don't think they'd have had a problem taking Cain back. The presence of Jennings likely wouldn't have negated the need for Cain. There is obviously room for both in the OF for them. And Brignac has played all over the place, so I doubt they'd have had a problem playing him elsewhere. Again though, this supposes that Greinke and Shields had equal value this off-season. I don't think they had anywhere near the same value coming into the year. I think you could have gotten Shields for say Odorizzi, Cain and Jeffress for instance.

Not inconsistent at all. The reason that I posted the career stats were because people were all over me when I said that Carroll has been horrible at the plate for the past month. In response, people were posting how consistent he's been over the past several seasons. Furcal has actually started hitting a little, but I'll grant you he's been brutal this season. However, I think that Carroll has been brutal as well, despite his BA and OBP. I know that the new-age stat folks dismiss RBI's, but come on- the guy has 8 RBI in 335 PA. That is beyond pathetic, and it tells me that he chokes with guys in scoring position. Sure enough, he's hitting .143 this season with guys in scoring position. Going further, he's never driven in more than 36 runs in a season. His career batting average with runners in scoring position is about 20 points lower and OPS is about 50 points lower than his overall career stats. This is the answer to the shortstop issue? I'll stand by my assertion that his best offensive attribute is the ability to draw a walk at a higher than average rate. I'm not even considering that he's never been an everyday shortstop. Guys are usually moved off short at 37, not the opposite. He's been brutal beyond his BA and his OBP? I'm not even sure how to respond to this. So aside from his ability to get hits and get on base, the two most important factors in creating runs, he's been a brutal hitter? And again, we're talking about this in reference to him being an upgrade over Betancourt who has a lower OBP than Carroll does BA? Not to mention Carroll's a better defender, and capable of playing the OF, 2nd, 3rd and SS? And it is inconsistent. You're citing Carroll's numbers from the last couple weeks as a reason to not get him, and then advocating Furcal who's been worse than Carroll has been for a couple weeks for the entire season. Then you're going to career stats, where Carroll still blows Betancourt out of the water, but the flaw here is you're comparing him to Furcal who was a great player, but his production has been zapped by injuries. How important are career stats for a guy when he's struggled mightily as of late and is injured in his mid 30's? There really is no coherent argument than can be made that he's not an upgrade over Betancourt. I'm all for taking a flier on Furcal as well as he does provide the potential to be a very good, well rounded player. But given the injuries, there is a significant chance he won't be, whereas with Carroll, he's consistently been a solidly above average player.

We're down to RBI's now as a reason to not get Carroll? We're really digging deep here for reasons that Caroll would not provide an upgrade. It's almost as if as soon as one reason you put forth for why Carroll isn't an upgrade is dismissed with facts, you just keep trying to find another. You state he's terrible with RISP, a stat that's almost completely meaningless over 48 AB's. When his career numbers THERE are shown, the same logic you just took in another post, ie, career numbers over current numbers, you come back to RBI's. RBI's=Team stat.

Kuroda's current 3.19 ERA and 1.22 WHIP say otherwise.Agreed. And before concerns about Dodger stadium skewing those results coming into play, he's pitched better on the road than at home. 3.65/1.23 at home, 2.45/1.20 on the road. Pretty consistent, but quite a bit better on the road, thereby alleviating any concerns about the large ballpark deflating his ERA.

But it would give us a lefty in the bullpen. It would give us draft picks for next year as well. Now I dont know if it is the move we need but if we got Kuroda and Carroll I think we would be pretty well set. I would like a bat off the bench but hopefully that could be solved by Gamel being promoted later in the season. Absolutely it would. If we could get him for cheap. I still maintain a trade with the Dodgers should include both Furcal and Carroll. If you're also going to include Kuroda, taking back 6 million in salary between the 8 million owed Furcal and Kuroda could greatly limit the value of the prospects heading back as well. Kuroda would be an incredible #4 with Wolf as the #5. Not sure who'd be able to top that. Then you consider that you've got Narveson now available in a Sean Marshall type roll as our LH'er out of the pen. Long man, whatever. Kuroda certainly isn't a necessity, but he would be one helluva luxury. Now just get Braddock back on track for the end of August and Sept and call up Green, and I believe this team would be absolutely set, and would legitimately be a World Series contender. This would just go so far to solving any remaining issues. Furcal and Green replacing Betancourt and McGehee on the left side improves our defense a great deal. Carroll improves our Defense at 3rd if he were to be placed in a platoon role, and/or provide a huge boost off the bench. Kuroda really improves our rotation, not that it's an issue, but he does clearly make it better and then as a result our BP improves.

Hey, at least he doesn't go up there looking for walkshttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Where in the world does THIS come from? The Brewers are lacking in elite upper level prospects. We're also not talking about trading for elite big leaguers that would require such prospects. We're talking about trading C level prospects for guys who have limited value to their own big league teams. I don't think anyone who knows anything about the trade value of any of these players would even hint that we're talking about a Peralta, Gamel or another equally valuable minor leaguer in return for a couple months of a Clint Barmes type player. The Brewer are actually positioned extremely well to trade for these types of prospects as we have an abundance of C type prospects. Again, we're obviously lacking in the elite, blue chip prospects, but we're not talking about trading for Ubalado Jimenez, James Shields type big leaguer. So when talking about Rafael Furcal, Jamey Carroll or Clint Barmes, throw out the Mesoraco, Alanso, Teheran types as they're totally irrelevant to these discussions. I'm also curious what your point is in referencing the .150 batting average? Are you suggesting that because Gamel, in an absurdly small sample size, hit for a poor average that-that fact in any manner has any relation to Taylor Green?

I think that's absolutely ridiculous and a bit insulting to Melvin. He's reportedly going after Jamey Carroll very hard right now, so that would seem to directly contradict your post. Bottom line, I don't think Melvin is fooled by a short stretch. I know a lot of people on here believe they're more intelligent with regard to building a team than Doug Melvin, though I would contend that those people seldom grasp many of the difficulties in making the moves they often advocate, but Melvin's a pretty sound baseball guy. He may make some moves we quibble with and don't like, but that line pretty much says you believe him to be kinda an idiot in not so many words. I also can't understand what would make you believe that Taylor Green would put up an inferior linel to Casey McGehee. When has he ever been in the .586 OPS range at any level? He's currently putting up a .940+ OPS in AAA. I also don't understand what there is to suggest he'd only be a slight upgrade defensively. McGehee is just awful while Green's at worst average to above average.

In a perfect world, the Brewers trade for both Carroll and Furcal. And both are available. Furcal does have the higher ceiling, and he should be little more than a salary dump. He should have negative value at this point, though the Dodgers may be holding out a bit longer to see if they can pry a decent C+ type prospect for him. With his injury history, and his terrible season, Jamey Carroll offers a great deal of protection in the event that he continues to struggle, as well as obvious value as a utility player. And it may be easier to work out a deal from the Brewers end, as justifying giving up a B- type prospect is easier to do when you're getting back two players, despite the fact that neither have much trade value. And who knows, maybe we could get the Dodgers to throw in an OF'er for us...maybe that Kemp guy they've got in center.... I think Wilson and Counsell would then be the obvious two choices to go. Not that Betancourt shouldn't, I just doubt the Brewers would. Nor would they likely send McGehee down. Though again, it'd be advisable.