HiAndTight

Thanks for the summary. I can't believe there's angst over the Brewers "passing" on Russell Branyan. I know he has cult hero status for some reason around here, but come on already. It's not like he's going to go be the next Nelson Cruz for the Yankees.There's really only two people that want him back on this thread.Have you read the entire thread? There are certainly more than two people who want him back.

Agreed 100 pct. I'd love to get Piscotty with our Supp pick, and someone along the lines of Keon Barnum, or a Jesse Winkler type guy. A couple guys with high upsides who could be impact position players, and Kyle Zimmer is incredibly intriguing to me. Not overly a fan of San Fran after Fredrickson, but he's going to be 20 this year, is 6'8 and can throw in the upper 90's with sink to it and a potential plus hammer to go with it. Though with it being so far away, obviously everything is up in the air. Those guys could all end up going top 20, or all dropping to the 2nd.

- Player OTY: Logan Schafer-I think he's going to have a huge year. .330/.400 line and I think you see a little more power out of him. 20-22 HR's this year if he's in AAA all year. - Pitcher OTY: Tyler Thornburg-Obviously the initial Lincecum comps were based on size and the fact that he could manage to throw hard, but he's showing a lot more to justify at least the cursory Lincecum comps. Improved his K's per 9 when he moved up last year to A+ despite not having quite as much success overall. Telling. - New-comer: Jed Bradley-Throwing 95 consistently in instructs is pretty encouraging to me, as has been his cape performances. I think in the long run, a guy some thought could go in the top 4 falling to us at 15 will look like a great pick. Obviously when you draft two big strong power armed pitchers at 12 and 15 in the previous years draft, this is a hard chioce. - Most improved: P Brooks Hall-I've been a huge fan of Hall since we drafted him. Decent year last year, but if he can get the fastball back to the 94-95 range he was capable of hitting and projected to be able to sit at in the pro's, he could have a very fast ascent. Also obviously love D'vontrey and his pure skills. Reed should be fun to follow. It'd be great to see a position player have a huge year and move into that top 100 consideration, though probably a stretch. There are just too many guys with great tools in the lower minors to try and pinpoint one that I think is going to jump out and have a big year out of our group of position players. Edit-Oh, and I suspect the "trade Weeks," talk will come from the same place it's always originated.....which incidentally is the same person who brought it up here.

Fair enough, but to whom are you referring?I think best case scenarios for Bradley, Peralta, Jungmann would be topping out as #1s. What am I hoping for? That at least one of them winds up being a good #2 or #3 type like you alluded to earlier. Best case is exccedingly rare for starting pitchers as we all know full well with our history, Rogers, Jones, Neugebauer, Gold, etc..etc... But I think Bradley, Peralta, Jungman, Thornburg are all guys with potential #1 upside. All very unlikely to reach it. But when you throw in a couple more guys like Scarpetta who I think could be a really solid pitcher. Basically a poor mans Sheets as he has the fastball and curve, but obviously lacking in the big time curve. Still, if he takes a step like Peralta did last year, which he's capable of, knocking down the walk rate, and improving a touch on the K's, he's a guy who you look at as a possible #3. I obviously agree though. From this particular group of 5, I'd be thrilled with a #2 and a #3. All of them are power pitchers, the first 4 have thrown 97+ in the last year, Scarpetta throws in the mid 90's(I'm not sure what he tops out at, but I know he's capable of at least throwing 95). We don't need a ton of guys. Re-signing Greinke changes the entire equation. Front your rotation with Greinke and Gallardo, both of whom I think are capable of being legit aces with Greinke proving it at times in his career, if not year in year out, and Gallardo possibly taking that step at the end of last year. If you just throw in a couple of those guys hitting at near their ceilings, you're pretty well set with some cost controlled pitchers with high upsides. I suppose it's how you look at pitchers. Some thrive on negativity and ameteur scouting. I look at a guy like Jungman who was one of the most dominant pitchers in college the last several years who is capable of throwing in the upper 90's with 4 pitches he an throw for strikes, and that's a guy who's capable of being a front of the rotation like guy. I don't expect him to be completely refined, just looking at power pitchers who have shown good command and or control as well as at LEAST flashing one or more average to plus secondary pitches, and he's obviously one that fits the bill there.

Yep because that's been posted nowhere on this forum, no one has compared Jungmann to Suppan. Perhaps you are confusing the draft day discussion about Nelson being a harder throwing Suppan from the other thread that I alluded to. The pitcher I keep going back to in my mind and can't seem to get myself away from even though their deliveries are completely different is Niemann. Niemann had a better repertoire coming out of college, his slider was considered the best in the draft and his curve was considered above average to plus as well. I'm not sure why my mind keeps drawing that comparison, maybe it's the tall RHP pitcher deal, or someone who was drafted high who was ultimately a mid rotation guy. At any rate I'd be thrilled if Jungmann put up similar career numbers to Niemann, and as I've said many times, I've never seen Taylor pitch in person and only saw him pitch in this year's College World Series and he just didn't have a single pitch with any wow factor for me personally. I'm certain I saw him pitch in 3 of his worst games in college, and I only watched 2 with any level of scrutiny so yes I'm keenly aware of the small sample. However, the only scout who posted anything positive about his secondary stuff was Mayo, and in watching I understand why people weren't impressed. He could certainly improve, he needs to improve, but I don't think he's nearly as polished as he's been billed. I've talked quite a bit about WOW factor, but haven't elaborated on it. What I mean by that is when I watch a guy pitch and I say to myself, "wow that was a great pitch". A FB has to be pretty special to get me excited, like Jeffress and Manzanillo level hard, but usually the secondary stuff does it for me. Take Peralta for example, there were times when his slider looked absolutely filthy, I felt similarly about Scarpetta's curve, every once in a while he'd flash one that would blow me away. Here's a link to the I shot, no one else on that staff really did anything for me. Meadows was amazingly consistent and got outs, but he didn't stand out in any way. In 2010 it was Manzanillo's arm (Wendt had foreshadowed his velocity well) and Odorizzi's relative polish, a guy like Bucci walked the world and weaseled out of jams when I was there so I didn't come away impressed with him. Heckathorn didn't blow me away, Arnett and the rest... well you were just hoping for improvement. Last year the only guy I wanted to see pitch was Thorny and circumstance didn't allow me to get down to a game and see him pitch. Watching the T-Rats bat speed like Lawrie's stood out, no one else had that kind of punch. D'Vo is another, but it was his general athleticism that stood out. A guy who I really liked and still follow was Chris Dennis, nothing he did really stood out, he just seemed to have a good approach and perform well when I was there and his career really hasn't taken off. Gennett is another guy who didn't really wow you with any one thing, just performed very well for his age at the plate, 2B was a different matter entirely. Sometimes the opposing players stand out, like a Mike Trout, he's the most glaring example, you only needed to see him play once to know he was special. I'm not saying that if a guy doesn't stand out he can't be a productive MLB player, however if he doesn't stand out I do think there is little chance he'll be an impact player. Maybe I'll buy a new camera and do some more videos this season, but I doubt I'll see Jungmann or Bradley, unless they struggle mightily in A+ and get demoted. Reading comprehension is a VERY important thing on these message boards, and my post was not very difficult to sift through. I not ONCE said anyone said he was Jeff Suppan. And I'm not confusing your blasting of yet another Brewers draft pick. I'm talking about the recurring theme that Jungman is a low ceiling innings eater. Which is EXACTLY what I meant when I said, "relagated to Suppan LIKE duty as a #5 innings eater." And I'm curious, are you a professional scout, or just another one of us who follows the farm system very closely, played and has taken in some minor league games here and there that seem to help you form opinions that cannot be questioned? I only ask because if you are in fact, a regional scout, or if you scout in any actual capacity other than a fan, the condecension in your post is easier to stomach. If not, and you're just a fan like the rest of us, I don't need to know that you're looking for elite tools in young players, ie, bat speed. It didn't take me many games watching Lawrie's awkwardness around 2nd, but good range and solid hands to see that he could be a good 3rd basemen as I've been saying for years, and obviously and elite talent offensively. I also could not possibly disagree more about Jungman only getting rave reviews from Mayo. I don't even know where to begin on that, but many have been very high on Jungman, and many of which have him as a #2 type innings eater. Certainly different from your opinion and what SEEMS to be the opinion of a large pct of this board.

That's because....without sounding too simplistic, it is a very positive system. I think, while obviously having those elite top 20 prospects would be great, for the way our team is built right now, speculation about our demise is very premature. We have 20 million in additional TV revenue coming in next year, and we have a very nice core of players locked up for the next couple years. So our prospects that are maturing are very good fits for us as they may not be, as i said, Harper types, but they're very solid #4 OF'ers, potential starters in Gindl/Schafer, and then several promising pitchers who look like they could easily be ready by 2013 when we're set to lose one of the two in Marcum or Greinke(I can't believe we'd allow Greinke to get away after what we gave up). Honestly, we're one more good draft with 3 first round picks, including a supplemental 1st, and another step up from our prospects coming in now and we could easily be looking at a top 10 farm system.

Of course they're useful. Lets not take this thing too far the other way now. They're not as useful as some previously thought, but 200+ K's or a .195 BA like Carlos Pena are BOTH useful ways to evaluate them.

That's a bit of a stretch, he was viewed as a nice power prospect with some legit holes in his swing. BA ranked him pretty high, but the scouting reports on him weren't necessarily glowing as far as the hit tool was concerned. edit. I guess here's the thing, true can't miss prospects are few and far between. Out of our system I thought Braun, Fielder, and Gallardo were can't miss, that's it. I championed players like Hart, Gamel, Hardy, Escobar, Weeks, Braddock, Axford, Lucroy, and Parra, but there's a wide gulf between thinking a player is going to be good and being willing to bet or say definitively that a player is going to be a stud. I might like a guy, be really high on a guy, but few guys are "can't miss". Outside of our system those guys are like a Price, Longoria, Trout, Lincecum, and Stanton, playerss who I am positive will be perennial all-stars. I talk quite a bit about TB's system but outside of Price they haven't had a can't miss young pitcher. They have tons of guys I'm very high on, and Moore is pushing "can't miss" status, but I saw most of those guys as 2/3 type pitchers which are incredibly valuable, and I would have traded for any of them, but I wouldn't have been shocked if any had went Manny Parra either. I learned my lesson a long time ago with "can't miss". LaPorta is really only 2 tool player, maybe a 1 tool player... he didn't have a defensive position, didn't run well, I don't recall him having a strong throwing arm, there was plenty of talk about holes in his swing, but does have legit power. I wasn't sorry he was traded, I just wanted a different solution, and while I thought he'd manage to hit around .270, I'm not shocked that he's a .238 career hitter either. With a decent batting average, the rest of his line would be okay. I have to ask how you come to this conclusion? Moore is MORE of a "can't miss," pitcher than Price was. You know who the top prospect in baseball is right now? Not Trout, not Harper, Moore. I think that's pretty telling. I also think you're underestimating Hellickson and Hellickson isn't far from a can't miss either.

I'm still at a loss why we're so consistently disappointed that a guy who's been worth 12 WAR over 12 seasons wasn't brought back to a team that Melvin has said specifically needs to rely on their younger home grown players, and believes we have several guys who can contribute in the near future. And actually, since 1998, it's only 11.9 WAR. So still not getting the BF.NET love. He can hit it a mile and he gets red hot for 2-3 week stretches and then can't hit for 3 months.

I think he'd be significantly better than Narveson moving forward as he looks like he's starting to put it together. I can't imagine why the Red would decide to go this long with him and just when he looks like he's starting to hit, dump him for a roster spot?

Jungman has consistently been absolutely dominant through his college career, throws in the mid 90's, and has the potential for two average to above average secondary pitches. They also drafted Bradley, a guy with considerable upside and Lopez a guy who might trump the first two. But it seems as though this board has just convinced itself that Jungman's relegated to Suppan like duty as an inning eating #5.

I don't have time to pull up the links right now, but I also seem to remember TH and Witrado taking seemingly innocent comments about Gamel and putting a heavy amount of their own spin on them. I got the impression Mat was a little unmedia savvy when he first came up and may have done something to upset the beat writers. I remember getting this feeling particularly from Witrado. He in particular just didn't seem to like Gamel. He seldom had anything concrete other than dwelling on a few comments by Money, comments that I think have cost Money his chance at managing a big league team, not just about Gamel, but I think he's been far too openly critical of some of the minor leaguers we've had) as I don't think many big leaguers would put up with him popping off at the mouth to reporters. But I agree, I've seen comments that seemed to be totally innocuous and they get belabored by some beat writers.

It certainly sounds like it. Our of curiosity, how many times did you watch him play last year?

Nobody is forcing you to read or post here. I think this is a great discussion as I found out I have a much different opinion than a lot of other posters on this topic.Yeah, and his opinion is that people are overly critical of Mat Gamel and have made judgements from a distance based on perceived body language that probably wouldn't be an issue if Money never said anything.

And Wolf...and now Aramis Ramirez, and Corey Hart. Though I wouldn't call them flops, just poining out additional 30 million dollar contracts. Amazing that I think Hall's deal was the biggest in Brewers history(or it was Sheets) and now we've discussed deals 3-4 times as large, and will probably(or possibly) have two 100 million dollar players on our payroll in Braun and Greinke(Zack hopefully for a little less, but close if we want to sign him). Yes, and Suppan obviously was a terrible signing. But you know the difference? Cespedes is a PROSPECT. Not one MLB or even MiLB AB. Suppan and the others were established MLB players. Plus he's 26, as others mentioned. It's just too risky for a small market team like the Brewers, especially when their payroll is inflated at the moment.I'd argue it's far less risky to sign a potential superstar to a 30 million dollar 6 year deal than it is to sign middle tier Fa's to larger shorter term deals. In fact, I think it's a lot less "risky," to cut the payroll by 10 million and spend more on prospects(which I'm not quite certain why it's capitalized. They're all prospects until they're stars or not. But when a player has the skills and potential of a guy like Cespededs, I'd rather take this huge "risk," and sign 5 of them than guys like Wolf, Suppan, or even Ramirez. You hit on one of them, and he fulfills his potential, and you get another solid player and you get your money worth. Hit on 2, the others can be busts. I'd argue consistently taking THESE types of risks is better for a team in our situation than a team like the Yankees and Red Sox. I obviously don't see them doing this, but if he is as talented as many say he is, I'd argue he's well worth the risk. This is an extreme situation, but lets just say 5 million a year(what it'd take to likely sign this guy) a year added to our player development budget would be monumental in adding prospects to the system. You think the "risk," the Tigers have taken on guys like Porcello, Miller(who despite being a bust helped them land Cabrera), Turner and others was too much?

Yes, but a player who is blocked at two positions by two of our best players does not mean he's a utility player.

I think there is some confusion with Green. Just because he's capable of playing 2rd, 3rd and 1B doesn't mean he's got to be pigeon holed into the dreaded "utility," label. I prefer he's versatile. Ben Zobrist is a guy who plays several different positions. Is he a quote-unquote "utility" player? To me that's a benefit, not a detriment. Green reminds me very much of Mark Loretta. I think he'll hit for more power and not quite as much in the BA department. Loretta played SS as well for a while, but at his height, he was a 3B/2B type. I think Green's got a nice upside. I think he's very capable of being a .285/.350/.475 type hitter who can hit 15-20 HR's given the chance. I wouldn't dream of giving him up for LaPorta either. I WOULD be interested in bringing LaPorta back into the fold. Perhaps for a guy like Nelson+one of our many 1B in the lower levels who've put up nice numbers. Or a Nyjer Morgan once Braun comes back(or hell, before and just bring Schafer up right away. With Sizemore, they've got to want some protection).

That's a stupid, asinine cliche. Just because you slip up one day doesn't mean you're back into a full blown addiction. Trust me, I'm an addict. Not in the same way, 11 surgeries, including meldal in every bone on the right side of my body(major bone) and cadaver ligaments and grafts) so I've been on OC's for a couple years. I went through hell because I didn't really realize i was an addict, but the fact is I was. Tell ya what, I go out with my friends, have some drinks, very-very rarely get drunk. MAYBE 2-3 times a year at a wedding, or whatever, but if he's over it, he needs to be careful, but he shouldn't need a babysitter. Especially if he believes in God and that stuff. And he's more of a team guy, he's more versatile, he's more of a community guy, and who do you think is going to be most likely to give the team he flourished with a discount? I discount the addition issue 100 pct.

So Suppan signing for more and he was a flop and you would be worried about $30m? The Brewers have signed many players that were flops for a lot more than $30m.Combined, maybe, but Sheets was the first guy to get a 30M deal from the team and that was 2005. After that came Suppan, and now Braun & Gallardo. Hall's deal came close, but that was only 4/24. And Wolf...and now Aramis Ramirez, and Corey Hart. Though I wouldn't call them flops, just poining out additional 30 million dollar contracts. Amazing that I think Hall's deal was the biggest in Brewers history(or it was Sheets) and now we've discussed deals 3-4 times as large, and will probably(or possibly) have two 100 million dollar players on our payroll in Braun and Greinke(Zack hopefully for a little less, but close if we want to sign him).

Right, but they don't cost equally, thereby limiting our ability to spend money elsewhere. Which is why this crop of starting pitchers is so incredibly important. We need to re-sign Greinke first and foremost, and then hope that the pitchers we're all familar with can create a #1/2 type, and a couple of viable, league average inning eaters. Greinke/Gallardo-perhaps Peralta/Thorn-whoever/and then two solid pitchers in the 4.25 range. That might be askign a lot, but we've also invested a lot into these guys and finally have quite a few capable of sticking. I think Scarpetta's a wild card here as he's moved up he hasn't really been overwhelmed, and I think is in line for a Peralta like jump this year after having a similar ascension to AA from A+. IF he can cut back on the walks, he could be that #4/5 you pencil in for 6 years. Obviously it's preferable to signing guys like Wolf for 10 million per. Or Marcum for what I can only imagine would be at least 50 million over 4 years(and would end up being awful IMO). Lock down the first two, hope you can develop something out of the #3-4-5 spots from within(or a Narveson type pickup setting aside the fact that we will still actually HAVE Narveson for a few more years.

I absolutely despised the Lawrie trade, and that was before he made a mockery of AAA pitching at 21 and big league pitching as well, though in a much smaller sample size, all while showing that his awful defense was greatly exaggerated. I'd always been a proponent of him playing 3rd given his body type, strong arm, and quickness which is good, but lacking for a 2nd basemen. Right now we could have him playing 3rd base, saved 36 on Aram and go after Oswalt or Edwin Jackson. Jackson in particular. I just wouldn't have traded someone I believe can be as valuable a player as Ryan Braun in the near future(with his defense included, I don't believe he hits quite like Braun, though not that much worse). I hated that trade about a year before it happened when it was suggested it, when it actually happened, and I think it looks even worse now. But, I also loved the 2011 season and Marcum was good. But 2 years of good doesn't equal 6 years of potentially great, and perhaps more if we locked him up like we did Braun/Yo.

I see absolutely no way in which if he produced similar to Fukudome with the added benefit of speed, that he wouldn't be a top of the lineup guy on this team. Is there another guy capable of posting .375/.371 and .359 OBP over the next three years. Edit-Let me add, other than Braun and MAYBE Weeks, and obviously Braun isn't leading off or hitting second. In fact, Fukudome with speed sounds almost ideal to my way of thinking. I expect less power, better defense. But he'd be an ideal #1 hitter for this team if he was a regular and a great #2 if he was a part time guy(just a personal thing, like having more consistency at #1/3/4.

I can't believe anyone who take the time to break that down, and still miss the point that there are a lot of ways for a player to be a draw to a team than simply ticket sales. Merchandising, TV, etc..etc... It's amazing how many people are on here saying definitively this cost Jack Z about his job. Amazing how often people forget about the long list of young pitchers who become a fraction of what they were expected to be as a result of arm injuries. The M's have a very nice looking pitching staff, they've got money, and they've got one of the games true and most durable aces.

I'm kinda at a loss how to respond when someone starts out mocking me and then goes on to cite fielding pct at 1st base no less, and then decides to claim that our IF defense wasn't a problem last year. This AFTER arguing that the difference between Aram and McGehee is miniscule. Some of the more ridiculous things I've read in quite some time.

They added a lot more than 1 Win with Prince Fielder in that lineup. I don't care what WAR says, or any other advanced Metric, that's a good team. WAR is meant to compare players and measure their performances, I don't know a whole lot of people who literally take WAR and translate it literally into actual wins and losses. Prince and Cabrera in the middle of that order is devastating, and they already had a great lineup, and they're still trying to acquire Garza for Turner+ whomever. Verlander/Fister/Garza/Porcello and that lineup is as close to a lock to win a division as any team you're going to see going into next year IMO.