HiAndTight

I agree, but the Lakers just won a title with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and a bunch of filler. They had 2 of the best 5 players in the world and they just bullied their way to a title. Even the 2018-19 Raptors had an emerging Pascal Siakam who was a 2nd Team All-NBA player this year. The formula is pretty clear. You need two All-NBA players to win a title - not just two All-Stars, but two of the best 15 players in the world. My biggest complaint about the new ownership group (besides the cronyism and nepotism) is that they really haven’t improved the roster. They inherited their two best players from Senator Kohl. So after 6 years, here they sit on the verge of losing a generational talent with no championships, no cap space, and no assets. Yeah, but Siakam wasn't a 2nd team All NBA player the year they won it. That's the key here. He DEVELOPED into that after. He took a big jump. They didn't have a 2nd player who was as good as Jrue the year they beat us. Lowry was a Bledsoe type player for most of his career, a guy who choked in the post-season. And the formula isn't clear. You can win with a Superstar and then a couple of next-level stars and a really good supporting cast. I also don't see how they went from likely to sign him to "the verge of losing him," without him saying anything. And they HAVE improved the roster...quite a bit. Not as much as we'd have liked, but you're underestimating what guys like Portis, Augustine, DD can do. Not to mention, a 26-year-old who Pop said was the leader of the Spurs who's a 40 pct 3 point shooter. Portis is a 6'10 big who just two years ago gave you 14/8 while shooting just under 40 from 3. Augustine shot 42 pct from 3 from 2017-18 through 2018-'19. And it's pretty much a given the Bucks are going to add an impact player who gets bought out at some time during next regular season. The Bucks are a BETTER playoff team than they were the last two years and they were the best regular-season team, were up 2-0 on the Raptors, lost an OT game and another heartbreaker as the Raptors won the title, then lost to a Heat team that got hot this year and then suffered injuries as they got banged up in the post-season. Again...if they were THAT close the last two years, the way they've improved 1-8...there's no reason they can't win. I absolutely believe they'd have beaten the Lakers. The Heat was just a very tough matchup. But history does NOT show that you need two All-NBA players to win a title. And we should also add the caveat that Giannis is just 25 years old and they've given him more shooting and they will likely still add someone in-season. But I go back to the same question. If they'd have signed Bogdan, would anyone be saying you "can't win without two Superstars?" I really doubt it since everyone was talking about how we had the best starting lineup in the NBA. But he was our 4th best player(assuming it would have gone through). I don't believe DD, Augustine and Forbes are BETTER than Bogdan, but I don't think the drop off will be AS big. Especially if DD continues to improve as he actually compared favorably to Bogdan last year in RPM(though we can all agree a lot of that is due to playing with Giannis).

Seeing Jenkins play center yesterday (NOV 22) after being thrown into that spot following Linsley's injury departure made it seem like he could very well be the future at that position. Yeah, the snaps weren't great, but they weren't bad, and I'd imagine he'd be able to shore that up rather easily. Other than that, he played really well...which he's done at every position. They really need to hit on some picks this draft. They need a RT(or Yosh Nijman needs to prove he's capable of starting next year...which meets the time frame people were throwing around). Again though, I guess if they can't find an RT, Jenkins can kick out there as he's SO talented and so well-rounded...and he's got the length to play tackle. Long arms and quick feet. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up as an All-Pro at multiple positions in his career. He's a guy that if they sign NOW to a 7-year extension, you'll be getting a bargain the last half of it and his cap number won't be very big the first half.

Austin is the exact type of player this team needs. I mean...preferably he'd be a bit thicker, but he knows the offense or at least the basic scheme, he can be used in Ervin's role. I thought we had an opportunity to bring in Ross earlier this year and he could have revived his career with us. Otherwise, Cordelle Patterson is a REALLY nice fit in the off-season. He's not a bad WR'er(not a good one). But he's an outstanding return man, he's been playing out of the backfield and he's DEFINITELY good enough to run those wheel routes we love running to everyone and he's dangerous running that Jet Sweep. The priority on offense should be a Deebo, Shenault. Tylan Wallace from Okie State would be a great target in the 2nd, maybe the 3rd round(ideally the 3rd round and trade up). And in the first round, Etienne would be the perfect replacement for Jones and you'd have him for 5 years. He's a VERY similar runner to Jones.

That would cost about $2.2M for the final 5 games if they claimed him ($436k/game). I'd expect no one claims him, however. Agreed. At which point, he'd cost the vets minimum, right? Unless someone's willing to pay him more than the Texans were(Which is unlikely). I'd assume he's got an off-set in his contract.

Without those two picks, the Packers may beat them. That just completely changed the entire game. They'd gone up and down the field on them twice, TB couldn't get anything going and then their Offense needed about 5 yards and they'd scored 14 points. Anyway, good news along the DL. Packers add Anthony Rush. Mentioned him in an earlier thread when Seattle signed Harrison and put him on the PS. I assumed it was because they were trying to protect Rush and they can only keep 3-4 DT's. He's a stud vs the run and a monster at 6'5 350. Reminds me of a young Mike Pennell in how he can stack OL.

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is. I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player. The problem is Holiday is our second best player, and that’s not good enough. To win a title they needed a second super star. They don’t have the resources to bring one here and I don’t envision a scenario where one signs here. I think Giannis signs the extension and tries one last time to win here, but they will fall short again and he’ll demand the trade. Disagree with the premise that you need two superstars to win a title. Plenty of teams have disproven that, but alright. You think Giannis is going to sign an extension, THEN he's going to demand a trade when they don't win? And at that point, why would the Bucks go along? They'd control Giannis for FIVE more seasons and they'd have lost all their draft capital through that period of time. Basketball is more than a 2 man game. Again, had Bledsoe been 80 pct of what he'd been in the regular season, we're likely playing in the NBA finals two years ago and beating the Warriors. So saying we CAN'T win with Jrue or Middleton as our #2/3 options, we've been competing the last two years with Middleton as our #2 option and our PG doing almost nothing but coming up short in the biggest moments. I can't imagine people would be saying we're not good enough to win had we acquired Bogdan...an inferior player to Jrue Holiday, so obviously it comes down to quite a bit more than just our 2nd star. The Bucks have 3 AS's now who all play defense and then some really nice pieces around them. I don't know if it'll be enough. I don't know how good the Nets will be with KD, how good the Heat will be, how the Lakers will be with LeBron getting closer to 40 or how good the Warriors will be without Klay all year(actually, I'm pretty sure they won't be good enough). But I know we're certainly talented enough to be in that mix...and who knows what happens in-season.

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is. I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player. Apologies, it’s not my intent to sell Jrue short. I just don’t think he puts the team over the top. Looking back, here is the second best player on recent championship teams: 2020 Lakers: Anthony Davis 2019 Raptors: Lowry, Siakam, VanVleet, or Gasol? 2018 Warriors: Steph Curry 2017 Warriors: Steph Curry 2016 Cavaliers: Kyrie Irving 2015 Warriors: Thompson or Green? 2014 Spurs: Tim Duncan 2013 Heat: Dwyane Wade 2012 Heat: Dwyane Wade 2011 Mavericks: Jason Kidd Would anyone here put Holiday or Middleton ahead of anyone on this list? (with the possible exception of that Raptors quartet) I'll put him over the Raptors trio and over Kyrie and over 38-year ol.d Tim Duncan and I'd DEFINITELY take him over a 38-year-old Jason Kidd. Kidd shot 36 pct, scored about 8 per game, and wasn't anywhere near the defensive player Jrue is. I'd put Kidd behind Chandler and maybe Marion on that team. 2011 Jason Kidd is basically Rajon Rondo right now. But I just never buy this type of logic. The Spurs for a big chunk of their run had one true superstar and they played well around him and players fit in perfectly. The game's not as simple as saying he's not as good as these #2's. Obviously AD, Steph, Clay, Wade, they're all far-far better players, but there are a lot of teams who've won titles without two superstars. The Bucks may have won two years ago if they had Jrue and last year was funny, but who knows. Look at how far we've gotten with a black hole at PG.

Which team do you think filed the tampering complaint against the Bucks? Heat? Lakers? Warriors? I THOUGHT the only team that could file a tampering charge was the team whose player had been tampered with and they had to pay for that. I feel like I read that recently...and I'm probably getting that wrong. I would guess that the NBA hearing about a sign and trade 3 days before you're allowed to talk to other players would have investigated on its own.

I have next to no faith this article is based on anything more than guessing. Everyone knew Bogdan wanted to play with Giannis and Giannis with him, we tried to get it done, Bogdan backed out. Not sure who's fault it is. I would guess the Kings, but maybe the Bucks were feeling themselves a little bit and they started talking too early. Either way...just trying to get over how obnoxious it is that this deal couldn't get done because of loudmouths and hope that the Donte continues to develop(he basically lose his rookie year to injury) and try to look at the upside of the moves we did make. But IF Giannis leaves, which I don't believe will happen, the Bucks are going to be a real sorry franchise for a while now.

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is. I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

I'd be on board with trading Williams at this point. I have a hard time seeing his value going any higher and I think we've got a lot of really good young relievers coming up. Turang though is the one guy I hope we hold onto. I think Turang's got a high ceiling and will move fast.

I just can't make sense of this post so hopefully you can help me understand. You are saying their depth sucked last year so we should upgrade the starting lineup to make the bench even worse? I feel like the general consensus is that the Bucks had a deep team that allowed them to do well during the regular season, so they should sacrifice there for the starting 5- which helps come playoff time. The Bucks bench was objectively one of the best in the league....in the regular season. The problem is they didn't have impact players coming off the bench when you get deeper into the post-season. They didn't have a Jamal Crawford type. Or take the Heat series. They had Dunn, Robinson/Herro, Iguodala, Crowder, and Olynyk coming off the bench. So in the regular season, we could come at you in waves and run you off the court, in the NBA when the game slows down, the bench didn't matter and the starting 5 wasn't good enough. Still, while this was a good off-season, it has to leave a bad taste in your mouth. They made the wrong call last year in not extending Brogdon...and that was fine, we all justified it. That they didn't get a TPE was bad, but fine. But then this year bungling the Bogdanavic trade, it feels like this was the Bucks year to really make a couple of franchise-altering moves and they bungled it. They overpaid for Holliday, and that was fine because we thought we were underpaying for Bogdanavic and who cares at that point if you can throw out a starting lineup with those two in the backcourt. I really hope this front office learns from this so they aren't blowing opportunities in the future to add the type of pieces that can put this team over the top. I also hope they don't give up on any promising young 23-year-old bigs who can shoot so they can bring in a 38-year-old washed-up vet. Still...despite their best efforts to screw this all up, they did end up with a pretty good off-season. The one signing that is really under the radar seems to be Forbes. Pop had some pretty complimentary things to say about him and he seems like the type of guy who can still get better. Jrue is an awesome upgrade(even over regular-season Bled).

I don't think it's recency bias with regard to Pettine. He's just an awful DC...and I give a LOT more rope to coaches than others do most of the time. I don't believe that's the case for MLF...or if it is, I don't think it's something he won't at least figure out. He's talked about issues with the defense. That suggests to me he's seeing what we're all seeing(3rd and 9, game on the line and we're playing soft zones for example). Here's hoping we fire Pettine and Greg Williams...who will almost certainly will be out of a job next year takes over. I REALLY think if Williams had this talent, we'd be a top 7-8 unit.

It's just frustrating with MVS. Makes a tough catch to keep us in the game and then this. Always on the verge of breaking out and then shoots himself in the foot. I get the feeling he's going to break out big...once he leaves GB. He's just wound too tight from what I can see.

We'll take the ball...and we'll score...assuming we don't get hit with a holding.

You mean PJ Tucker isn't a true Center!

Yes...but pretty amazing they'll have the ball, 1 TO and just need a FG.

Agreed and definitely not to MVS. There's obviously something they're supposed to both read so they know a back shoulder is coming, but whatever it was, MVS didn't pick up on it. He had a step though if Rodgers would have thrown it out in front of him.

Portis and Giannis. Their best lineup last year came with Giannis playing Center. It'll require him to play more than 30 minutes a game, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

The odds of one of them both staying past next year? Less than 10 percent in my mind. Even if Giannis stays, we are giving an ok 31 year old point big money? Of course we are. Do you really think we gave up Bled, Hill 3 future 1sts, AND two swaps for one of the best PG's in the NBA just so we could let him walk after this year? I'd put the chances we offer both of them max or near max contracts at about 99 pct. What would the other option be? Let him leave after you spend a quarter of a billion dollars on Giannis and then try to replace one of the best two-way guards for a couple of million next off-season?

All of this. Augustin should have a nice bounce back year this season and the addition of Portis is a big step up from Robin. I’m hoping we can still somehow work out a deal for Bogdanovic. If we could somehow pull that off, I would view the offseason moves as basically perfect given the circumstances. A Bogdanovic deal would be tough, but you never know in the NBA. Do you take anything from the fact that he hasn't yet signed with a team despite all the rumors? I just read an article from a Hawks beat writer that said they feel confident he'll choose Atlanta over Milwaukee. Do this whole trade failing really just come down to some idiot leaking the proposal and then Bogdan getting nervous they would eventually nix the deal for tampering? If so, that would be the third pretty big error by the front office in the last ~18 months. They could have Christian Wood and Malcolm Brogdon on this roster as it stands. Wood, I get, he was a late-developing player(and was waived after leaving the Bucks). Still, you can't afford to lose that type of talent...talent that would fit in perfectly in Milwaukee. And Brogdon would have given you another really nice shooter for the playoffs...where he was sorely missed and right now being able to flip that deal. Anyway, the Bucks did sign a couple of guys to a two-way deal. Mamadi Diakite is a pretty interesting candidate. He's only played for 6 years now. An elite defender who can defend on the perimeter and be a rim protector. Also shot 36 from 3 last year. Sounds a little like Siakam.

I thought that was curious at least since the general sentiment seems to be that Bogdanovic is the far superior player to Donte. I don’t know enough about the inputs into Hollinger’s player value system to know if it has any merits at all, but would enjoy learning more about other sources of NBA player values if they exist. I wonder if DD playing in a system where he was getting a lot of open looks(and a superior defensive system) while Bogdan didn't have the benefit of playing with Giannis can account for the gap between the two. Or maybe they're just looking at DD and seeing the jump he took from his rookie season to his second season and they believe he'll to develop into the Bucks poor man Manu.

All of this. Augustin should have a nice bounce back year this season and the addition of Portis is a big step up from Robin. I’m hoping we can still somehow work out a deal for Bogdanovic. If we could somehow pull that off, I would view the offseason moves as basically perfect given the circumstances. It does make me wonder if there's still a chance since Bogdan hasn't signed an offer sheet yet. I didn't know you could do a sign and trade as part of a sign and trade, but Sterling Brown would give them a backup SG...certainly has more upside than Ersan. But we have his bird rights, but I don't know how it works with the hard cap. Both Portis and Augustin signed for relatively cheap. That would make this just about the best possible off-season we could have dreamt up. I think DDV is going to become a really nice player, but everyone we have now, throw in Bogdan and we don't really lose that much from the bench, but the starting lineup would be awesome. Should be enough to entice Giannis to stick around. Should be enough anyway. And hopefully, with Jrue and DJ, the Bucks offense won't be 4 guys standing around while Giannis tries to take on the whole team. Watching Wood develop almost instantly as soon as he left and got some playing time makes me even more disappointed in that Mirotic trade. I know he wasn't part of the trade, but he was waived in order to make that trade happen. Hopefully if this trade doesn't go through, we'll look back in 2 years and be thrilled we hung on to DiVincenzo.

Bucks are reportedly signing Bobby Portis. Young (25), good size at 6'10", 250. Solid shooter, including good career numbers from 3. Not really a backup big or wing, but kind of a combo of those two. Edit: Bucks apparently signing DJ Augustin as well. There's your backup PG. Two nice signings. Guys who thrive on bad teams and are not good defenders like Portis are always a little troubling, but he's still just 25, so maybe he thrives in this system. Still like to see another SG brought in, but I don't know who's out there that'd be an upgrade or starting caliber 2. I'm sure there will be opportunities in season to add a contributor though.

They did draft 2 of the top 10 centers in the league right now. And they picked both of them on day 3 of the draft. They've done a better job at drafting and developing Centers than any other position on this team in the last ~15 years with the possible exception being WR's. There was one period where they'd started 5 different centers in a 5-6 year span and they were all mid-round picks save for Jeff Saturday who was probably the worst among them and a FA signing. Scott Wells, EDS, Tretter, and Linsley. That said, the Center position is more important in LaFleur's system than it was in McCarthy's..which is why I'm hoping Jenkins moves back to Center, provided he's not needed at RT.