don1481

Actually I only included a 7th if that 7th was comparable to the 6th. And that's my point if you look at the top 3: They look comparable, but you have to look at the entire pen. And what was lacking in the Brewers' case was depth. As I said in my last post, Schuerholz put together a pen that was used very similarly by Bobby Cox; however, their depth was far better than that of the Brewers'.

Ok... here's where I think our signals are getting crossed: You're focusing on our most overworked guy - Turnbow - and saying that if other teams are using their most-overworked reliever more than him that Ned gets a pass. However, what I'm saying is that you have to look at the entire body of work - in this case, the bullpen - to gather a better understanding. Furthermore, let's pick some of those teams that are listed above for comparison. 2007 Appearances for the Brewers: Turnbow: 77 Shouse: 73 Cordero: 66 Wise: 56 Villanueva: 53 (plus 6 starts) Spurling: 49 For a total of 374 collective appearances, or 62.3 per. Let's compare this to, say, Atlanta's bullpen: Moylan: 80 Yates: 75 Soriano: 71 Villarreal: 51 Wickman: 49 Paronto 41 For a total of 61.2 appearances per reliever. LA Dodgers: Biemel: 83 Broxton: 83 Proctor: 83 (including 52 from the Yankees) Seanez: 73 Saito: 63 Billingsley: 23 (plus 20 starts) For a total of 68 (!) per. If you don't include Proctor's 52 from the Yankees, that drops to 59.3. Colorado: Corpas: 78 Affeldt: 75 Fuentes: 64 Hawkins: 62 Julio: 58 Herges: 35 Bucholz: 33 (plus 8 starts) For a total of 57.85 appearances per reliever. Yankees: Vizcaino: 77 Rivera: 67 Farnsworth: 64 Bruney: 58 Myers: 55 (plus 17 from the White Sox) Proctor: 52 (as mentioned above) Villone: 37 For a total of 58.6 per. While at first "only" a few games' difference may not seem like a lot, but that's a few games per reliever difference. That's a few times that a pitcher could have gotten an additional "rest" day over the course of the season. That could be the difference between a player feeling "fatigued" down the stretch (even though they'd never admit it to the public) versus being more rested. As I said in my previous post in this, I do agree with BackupCatchers in the sense that The Moustache needs to be held as accountable as Ned for putting together a bullpen like he did. The obvious solution is to put together a bullpen that is deeper than what they had this year - I'm not sold on Spurling and I'm definitely not convinced that Wise will ever be the same mentally. I'm not going to give Nedly a "pass" on this, however - it was up to him to figure out when to use the members of the bullpen. I think this is a pretty reasonable initial "whack" at the numbers that support Ned's bullpen-abusing tendencies. Yes - Bobby Cox did also abuse his 'pen to nearly the same degree. And Ned comes from the Bobby Cox camp. Maybe that's the big lesson to be taken out of this. Of course, Schuerholz gave Cox a much deeper pen to work with than The Moustache did for Yost.

Sorry for not responding to this sooner (to post 1176) but Igor hit it right on the head. Trotting out the same relievers game in and game out, regardless of the size of the lead, put additional wear and tear on arms. Pitchers didn't necessarily get the rest that they needed, so it began to wear on them. I remember earlier in the year pointing out that if Ned continued to use certain arms (Turnbow, Shouse, Villy, Cordero specifically) at the rate that he was in terms of appearances, we were going to witness a bullpen meltdown from Ned overusing that group of pitchers. I used Brian Shouse's first and second half splits from 2006 as an example of this sort of overuse. Heck - I even said that Spurling was on pace for over 50 appearances - I know... *shudder*. Unfortunately, that post was pre-Yuku and far enough in the beginning of the season that it wasn't saved. Furthermore... It's not just the innings that come into play, Catchers, but also the number of appearances AND the number of times that the pitcher had to warm up without going into the game. Basically, if a pitcher has to get warmed up and ultimately doesn't have to come into the game, there's still enough usage on the arm so that it really doesn't count as a "rest" day. The counterpoint to your "not capable of logging many innings" argument is Carlos Villanueva. He threw over 180 innings in 2006 between AA, AAA, and MLB; overuse by IP wouldn't really be an issue. Overuse by appearances, however, did prove to be an issue. It's part of why Smoltz was moved back into Atlanta's rotation (that plus they needed him); it's why originally Papelbon was supposed to move back to the rotation this year. Do I think that this is as much a DM problem as a Yost one? Yes, 100%. Doug gave Ned the players, Ned - unfortunately - didn't have as deep of a bullpen as he should have been given. Would Ned have not leaned so heavily on that small group of relievers had he had, say, Linebrink from Day One? Maybe, maybe not. The point is... the more quality arms Ned has available, the less the overall workload should become.

But earlier in the season... when the Brewers were "rolling" to their fast start, I remember a few people (including myself) that wondered out loud why Ned was working his pen so much so early in the season, and that it would come back and have bad effects later on. I do blame Ned for not keeping his starters in longer during games that the Brewers were up by 3+ runs during that stretch. It ultimately contributed to the heavy wear and tear that the pen faced, which in turn led to what would appear to have been a pretty vicious downward spiral during the second half. I don't know what the entire reasoning was for the starting rotation getting into the funk that it did midseason (Sheets' injury being probably the only thing that remotely fits the bill - increased workload on relievers because the other starters weren't going deep as often, etc), but the funk was magnified by Ned's early-season mismanagement of the bullpen and starters and the resulting ineffectiveness of the relievers from overuse.

Professional hitter? We're not talking Lenny Harris, are we...? In all seriousness, though, Cliff Floyd's track record is one filled with injuries. Do we really want to sign another Jenkins?

I will second Brains and Braun's statement here: If Torre becomes available (or... is it "when" at this point?), Melvin and Attanasio should strongly consider pulling a Larry Harris and saying "well... we've decided to go a different course. Meet our new manager: Joe Torre." I think Torre would do just fine in Milwaukee. Plus he wouldn't have the Evil Emperor breathing down his neck 24/7.

Creed, with the dark hair, reminded me almost of Christopher Walken. So that was extra-creepy... but super-funny. So when do we begin the Michael Scott Deathwatch?

Do you think Kremblas would be a viable in-season replacement? Or would it pretty much have to be Sveum?

If I was only talking about Gallardo, I could agree with this; however, I was talking about the starting pitching as a whole, and Gallardo wasn't even up when Ned was over-using his bullpen earlier in the season. If we do want to go off of how Ned handled Gallardo, yes, there are several examples of Ned keeping Yo in far too long just because, well, he was "cruising" or whatever excuse Ned wants to provide. TLB - my discussion revolves solely around the events in April/May/June when the Brewers were seemingly "running away" with the division. Doug's discussion points, while interesting, revolved around the latter portion of the season. Hmm... that makes me wonder - is Doug really all that aware of the causality of the events from earlier this season that led to the pen being run down and - after CV the Better being moved into the rotation, for example - having weak links (see also: Spurling, Chris; Wise, Matt; et al). I'm sure he is, but he's trying to at least save face in public.

Sitting at Miller Park on Saturday waiting for the game to begin, my dad and I had a discussion about Ned's mis-management of the 'pen eventually being the rotation's undoing, since Ned loved to go to the 'pen early and "shorten" the game more than he had to in the beginning part of the season. Basically we both agreed that the 'pen got overworked so much early on that when the rotation couldn't go deeper into games later in the season (see Vargas' inability to go deep, Yo's strict pitch/total innings counts, Capuano's struggles, and so forth), the 'pen was already far too run down to be of use. Ned basically gambled that the pen wouldn't tire and also that the rotation would be able to consistently go deeper into games later on in the season. Now... it looks like Ned lost on both of those gambles, and accordingly, the Brewers had a monstrous collapse on their hands. Ned should absolutely be held accountable for this and let go. Yes - while the players are ultimately the ones who didn't perform, Ned's decision-making - both at an in-game and on a season-long strategic level - should be held against him.

This is one time where I hope that Mark A. pulls a Larry Harris and dumps Ned after saying that Ned is "fine." Ned got grossly out-managed by LaRussa and Cox down the stretch.

So... are you proposing that the Brewers eat the $3.2 million that Turnbow is owed in 2008...?

We're having an Office party tomorrow at my apartment. We're all dressing up as characters. Brooke says I look like Ryan, so I'll be sporting a suit. And the Ryan Stubble as well.

Hmm... I think players have been held accountable here. However, I think TLB's point was referring to the situational usage of players (i.e. Mench not hitting versus lefties and Jenkins/Nix versus righties). For that, Ned can be - and has been - held accountable for his decisions. EDIT: RoCo's right. Color me jet-lagged... my sarcasm-meter was starting to say something but I was still half asleep. D'oh!http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/frown.gif

Ooooh - Hurling! I watched the All-Ireland final with Brooke's brother in law the Saturday we got there (the team he was pulling for - Limerick - lost, so he was pretty grumpy about that), and we saw him play last Friday. It's a fun time. Yes, I went touristy and kissed the Blarney Stone. But I'm back now and I see the Brewers are playing better baseball. Minus the whole "Let's throw in Stetter" decision, of course...

sbrylski06 hit it on the head - I'm in Cork County in Cloyne. Saw Angela Lansbury's house the other day. To Gougane Barra (look it up - it's beautiful) for Brooke's sister's wedding tomorrow through Monday! Hmm... now we're tied again for first I see. Interesting...

Hi all! I am presently sitting here in Ireland (on dialup no less - I feel your pain, Hawing) checking in on my beloved Brewers. I see that they've traded for Ray King... hopefully that will help the pen. Anyways - my Brewer Beard is starting to come in... hopefully that will help things. I will see you soon!

Well, comparing Estrada to Rivera is like comparing bad to worse. If DM's goal was to get the Brewers a good starting catcher, Estrada was obviously not the answer. And I still maintain that Vargas should not be back next year.

First, the Davis trade: 1. Estrada's absolutely putrid abilities behind the place remind me of Dave Nilsson... with mediocre-to-sub-par offense. There's a reason why Estrada's now on his 4th team in what, 5 years. I know a lot of people were saying that was a red flag when the trade happened; those people (I, alas, wasn't one of them - I was expecting more) have been essentially vindicated. Which, unfortunately, has left the Brewers with a catcher who's closing in on AARP eligibility as a better option than Estrada. Sadly, that option cannot play everyday anymore. 2. Vargas' past numbers pretty much predicted this season. He was pedestrian at best and regressing in his peripherals. And he enters his final year of arby after this season; if the Brewers wanted a one year stopgap, I guess they got that. 3. Aquino was a "nugget" type. His numbers really weren't that great to begin with. Sure, he may throw somewhat hard but... his track record wasn't that great. So really... the ESPN broadcasters that chalked the trade up in the Arizona column from day one were correct. And back to the Linebrink trade: 1. The biggest issue with the Linebrink trade is not the fact the Brewers gave up Inman to try and improve the 'pen, but the fact that they got a pitcher who was described by scouts as "burned-out" and with peripherals that were regressing quickly from when he was a top setup man 2 or 3 years ago. 2. Inman may or may not ever be a good MLB pitcher; that's not the point. The point is that the Brewers allowed the Padres to replace Linebrink in the pen immediately (via Thatcher) PLUS giving them two prospects. Calling up Thatcher - as many of us said from day one - would have been the smarter choice. When Melvin was let go from Texas, for example, the team was already on the downward slide. So of course they got worsehttp://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif So yes - I say they cut Melvin loose after this season. Melvin made his bed this season; he now has to lie in it.

Brian... I would say that DM did have payroll support this year. You can almost make some of the same arguments for firing Melvin as you can for firing Ned, namely that while he was the right person to bring respectability to the organization, he might not be the right person to help push the team "over the top" in his role. I would argue that the last two major trades by DM have not exactly worked out in the Brewers' favor: 1. Linebrink for Inman et al has been beaten to death here, both for what the Brewers gave up and for the pitcher (complete with "worn-out" arm) that was acquired. 2. Estrada/Vargas/Aquino for Davis/Eveland/Krynzel may have looked good on paper when the deal was first made but... I'd be willing to argue that Estrada has hurt the team more than he's helped it. Vargas could have been swapped with Villanueva (maybe having Vargas working out of MR from the get-go and Villy in the rotation would have allowed both of them to flourish, but I digress) and the #5 spot in the rotation would have been better. And Aquino....http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/sick.gif Melvin needs to be held accountable for acquiring the player that are presently on the team. We can go around and say "DM fleeced such and such 2 or 3 years ago," but as the Astros' shakeup shows, this needs to be very much a "what have you done for me lately" deal around here if the Brewers really want to move above mediocrity. Unfortunately, the answer to the question "What have you done for me lately" for DM is... not much.

I'll be able to do it starting Friday for two and a half weeks... I'll be in Ireland and Brooke wants me to grow out some scruff anyways...

Right now, I would guess that Mark A. is starting to consider whether or not to let Doug Melvin go after this season. While it seems like Melvin did try to acquire someone like, say, Gagne (who's been stinking up the joint in Boston, but that's not the point), the fact is that outside of a "worn-out" (according to scouts) reliever in Linebrink that cost the team their most advanced remaining pitching prospect plus two other young-ish arms, DM did not acquire any necessary help for the pitching staff. He needs to be held accountable, whether that's through him being removed this offseason or MA telling him that he needs to pursue some additional help for the staff during the offseason (and accordingly opening up the checkbook to allow him to do so). I'm sure that Ned is as good as gone either after the Cubs series or after the season... the only real question is whether Melvin will be gone as well.

I fundamentally disagree. Vargas is a serviceable #5 starter on a fringe playoff team. His peripherals and the fact that he is barely about 5IP/start this season pretty much makes him serviceable and nothing more. The fact that Vargas can't really go deep into games - even though he's a #5 - has helped to run down the bullpen. The same argument can be made for most of the rotation at the moment. While having one Vargas-esque pitcher is acceptable, having a rotation of them is not. But I digress... how bad is Vargas' back?

The only thing Vargas has really been consistent for is 6 or fewer IP/start and giving up around 4 runs/start. That and getting a ton of run support. Vargas is like Wayne Franklin a few years ago - a "winner" solely because the offense scored an unusual amount when he was on the mound. Unfortunately, Vargas is what he is - a pitcher that'll eat a few innings, maybe leave the team in position to win... but not someone who'll go out and stop a losing streak or dominate an opposing lineup.

Jenkins' Hot Streak WOAH SOLVDD! But in all seriousness, when he's against RHP (and some LHP), he's mashing of late. Hopefully he can keep that up and Shrek can do his part versus LHP...