Thurston Fluff

Good roster management should be independent of record but baseball has this rigid but arbitrary framework of buying if you're in it and selling only if you are out. Good roster management is a means to an end. That end is the record. You cannot treat them as independent since one is designed to create the other.

While the White Sox were only three games back they were well below .500 and had a couple teams ahead of them at the time. They were not really a true contender IMHO.

Second, do you REALLY believe that Wang would rather be making 1200 bucks a month, or do you believe he'd rather be making half a million dollars for the year? I'm not trying to be insulting, so I'm trying to word this carefully, but I think it's a little naive to think that Wang would prefer to be sent back to the Pirates so he can pitch everyday rather than be around a big league club pitching even sporadically and making more money this year than he'd make if he pitched in the minor leagues for the next decade. If making that much now means you lose more later maybe it isn't so cut and dried. Third, you do realize that if Wang goes on the DL he can still throw side sessions? You do realize he's probably getting better coaching. That when he comes off the DL he can pitch in the minors for a full month? If you go back and read the protocol for being on the DL they also have to update the progress as they go. The idea that we can hide him for more than a month for a dead arm diagnosis, all the while giving him the same workload as he is getting now, stretches credibility. And then of course, again, there is the fact that nobody can name a single time that major league baseball has ever denied a request to put a player on the DL. How often does anything in any sport that is both against the rules and, as you claim, widespread never have a single incident of someone getting caught? Let alone nobody ever being so much as accused of it. You seem to be saying that is because it is sort of accepted practice. I just don't see that as realistic. People who are going to stretch the rules tend to eventually stretch them to the breaking point. Hell on this board alone someone suggests a player get a phantom injury almost every single year. If teams routinely do that just to hide players who would normally be exposed to other teams we should defiantly see a significantly higher number of non traceable injuries for players who are out of options. We should also at least hear of cases where other teams accuse other teams of doing it. As far as I can tell that is not the case. The fact that not even Mr. Conspiracy theorist himself Tony LaRussa accused anyone of it should tell you how little it happens. On a common sense level how long do you think other teams would tolerate losing out on players they can use through means they know are against the rules? Combined those things lead me to believe it isn't widespread. In fact I would say it is almost nonexistent strictly based on the fact nobody so much as gets accused of it let alone caught and penalized.

Which would make him about the same age as Fiers is now. Is there a reason why a guy who comes in at that age is not a viable option to be productive when he gets here?

In your own argument, you're saying that the player that's being sent to the DL would have to "intervene on the players behalf." Why on Earth would Wang want them to do this? Because he'd rather be pitching for a few grand a year as opposed to earning service time on a major league roster making half a million dollars a year? You also have to have a doctor who would go along with that. Frankly I'd be surprised if there are a lot of doctors, who have careers of their own to think about, would be all that interested in such unethical behavior. But to answer your question Wang is probably smart enough to realize his career is more than one year long. I'm sure he knows he would be better served developing in the minors so he is ready sooner than later to stay in the majors. While this is not ideal it is still better for him to be on the active roster playing occasionally and getting side work in on a regular basis than sitting on the DL doing nothing.

Weeks is 2 for 22 with 10 K's since he peaked at .365 on May 15. I wouldn't get too carried away by his 3 week hot spell earlier. He's probably still no better than a .230/.310/.400 high strike out hitter when all is said and done. Which is exactly why I am for keeping him in his current role. He has always taken walks and has some power. Two things you want in a pinch hitter. He seems to do as well, if not better, in limited pa's as he does playing regularly. He is by far the best offensive option we have amongst the bench players. Why change his role when it seems to be working and we don't have anyone for that role was my only point.

Weeks hasn't played this well in years. We do not have many good offensive bench players. We do not need any more light hitting bench players who play multiple positions. Given all that why not leave Weeks remain in the role he is in? It fills a need that would not be filled with any other player we have in house.

Love the idea behind the thread. Nicely played Ic. (may I call you Ic) Not signing Casey McGehee to play third when Ramirez goes down has got to be a main driver in our losing road trip IMHO. That is two or three losses right there.

I've searched high and low and can't find a single instance where the DL form submitted by the doctor has been rejected by the Office of the Commissioner of MLB. I can't find a single instance where medical investigators were summoned to the city of a ballclub to conduct an evaluation of a player to deem them fit for the DL. If it happens, then by gosh, I'm wrong. I don't see any negative to the Brewers placing Wang on the 15-day DL with general fatigue if they feel they need a different long man in the pen for those games they are losing and need innings. Have you found a single actual submitted report? I doubt you would. Medical reports to the commissioners offices are not typically made public. In fact I'd guess medical reports are part of patient confidentiality laws. They are, after all, a report from a doctor about a patient. My guess would be the lack of those instances would mean one of two things. There may have been injury requests that have been denied without anyone reporting it. One would think it possible because reporters don't usually ask if the team tried to get a guy on the DL who doesn't appear to have an injury. Obviously the team would not share that information anyway. But I doubt the question ever got asked. A reporter isn't going to ask a team if they attempted to cheat but failed. The second possibility is there has actually never been a failed request but there could be two reasons for that. One is nobody ever tried to do it without at least reasonable evidence of a slight injury. Or two the league just doesn't care and automatically accepts any request no matter what. Of all of them I think that the least likely. The players union would have a say in that and it is unlikely no player ever said something about it. If it is a routine sort of thing it would have been challenged at some point. Have you ever seen something done to a player that was against the CBA that the union did not intervene on the player's behalf? Anything that is collectively bargained is something of importance to the union members. If they collectively bargained a procedure to make sure players are not hidden on DL's it is likely, almost certain, it is something players will hold teams to. I guess it is possible it does happen but I think it is as reasonable to think it does not. I seriously doubt it is routinely done. I can't think of a single form of routine cheating that not only goes unpunished but unchallenged forever. Not when there are vested interests by others that it doesn't happen anyway.

What I said was absolutely true. He would have to be placed on irrevocable waivers before he could be traded and then offered back to the Pirates. So if it's been made clear that not only would he not clear waivers, nor would the Pirates pass up taking him back, then how could we trade for him? NO he doesn't. I posted a link directly from MLB that says he does not. Please take some time to look at the material directly from the source before repeating the same false statements. TO make it easier for you here is the relevant section verbatim. There is nothing about going through waivers or having to offer him back to the original team first. Other have posted the entire rule five rules that showed you are wrong as well. Now please accept you just have it wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. Lord knows I have been enough. But it gets old when people have the link provided for them and they keep repeating the same false statement. Are we really working this hard to prove something that everyone knows routinely happens? Everyone? It seems to me there are plenty of people on this board who have disagreed with that. It is an opinion of some nothing more. An opinion, by the way, based solely on a blind assessment of the situation without any access to any medical records or anything. I posted the actual rules that shows your assertion that they didn't even need to have a doctor look at him to claim he has dead arm to be totally false. You have zero proof it happens, other than some vague idea that it happens all the time. I know it was based on situations such as Ford conveniently getting DLed but you did not have access to the actual medical records nor did you actually have any idea of whether or not that was something being discussed prior to his last outing or not. Thus it is just conjecture on your part. I have posted the actual CBA showing there does indeed have to be documented evidence of an injury by a doctor before they can apply for it. I also pointed out the league office could ask for more before granting a DL stay. I tend to think basing an opinion on factual verifiable evidence tends to be much more accurate than vague, everybody does it all the time, sort of opinions. At the very least it should count as some sort of acceptance that the league has actually addressed that form or getting around the rules.

I wasn't aware of all the rules regarding how they could go about trading Wang or what they could do, but they cannot do any of these things. They would have to waive him, every other team would get a chance to pick him up free and clear(aside from the 25K fee). So they couldn't work out a trade with any of those teams. Not true. This is form MLB.com. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/rule_5.jsp?mc=faq I don't even think it need collaboration by a single doctor, trainer, agent, player, or otherwise. Not true. This is directly from the collective bargaining PDFhttp://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf Page 53. I think that last bit shows the office can request even further evidence if they feel someone is trying to game the system. In fact it appears to me the office of the commissioner can deny any DL request if it chooses. It is pretty clear you can't just DL a guy for phantom injuries without a lot of collaborative help for sure.

Can you recall one time a training staff has been fined or suspended? Maybe because teams do not stash players away as often as some on here think they do. Trainers have a say in weather they go along with something that could effect their future. Whether that be directly or indirectly by presiding over a team whose players somehow come down with ailments out of thin air. I know one instance wouldn't be major but does anyone think a team who asks someone to cheat for them once wouldn't ask them every time it would be convenient for the team? To get away with cheating the least amount of co-conspirators creates the greatest chances of getting away with it. For this scenario to work they would need the player, the manager, the GM, the trainers and any doctors they consulted to go along with it. What advantage does it provide for the player? None. Why would he go along with it? His career is better served going back and pitching in the minors or staying on the active roster and working on his craft. So the key person in the whole conspiracy is the one who has the least to gain form the move and most to lose. The next group that is key to the conspiracy is the trainers. Again what do they have to gain by cheating? Far less than they have to lose that is for sure.

Just to clarify according to an article on bleacher report the team would get compensated if he misses an entire season not just if he has a career ending one. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2073034-texas-rangers-lose-prince-fielder-for-season-due-to-neck-injury

There was a lot of criticism of Melvin for not having a plan. Seems like the plan of- if you are stuck with poor options take the cheapest one- was the best route to go. As was said this could make it harder to get Morales. Assuming that was an option they were considering.

If I understand how those policies work correctly they are for when a player suffers a career ending injury. I do not believe they cover portions of the contract that are lost to injury even if the injury is long term.

If RR did that in a big market, he'd be toast. If their team was in first place he wouldn't.

Lost 6-9 games more in 2013 and have a legit shot at picking a SP with Ace potential. There is a legit chance all of them will flame as well. As it is we have a legitimate prospect who already had the most common injury taken care of and is getting some time to learn what it takes to play in the majors. While some think he is destined to play in a ball all next year I wonder if he isn't going to be a little more advanced than that. Nelson/Fiers aren't wasting away in AAA and are instead pitching for this team this year. And we have zero depth left and lose a year of control over them for less production than we are getting out of Lohse. And still have Wang as a Rule 5 Pick. Then we'd have less than Lohse production in the starting rotation making that roster spot more valauble. Without Lohse the team also ups it's offer and lands Jose Abreau to play 1b(ending the Platoon of Overbay/Reynolds thus creating the added roster spot to carry Wang) You know this how? My guess is since they were willing to pay Garza they would have been willing to pay Abreau if they felt he was worth the price. That's the other side way to take the Lohse Signing. You can't just say Wang replaces the Lohse pick because Wang doesn't magically become not available to the Brewers Rule 5 draft pick if they didn't sign Lohse. By reducing the production of our pitching staff keeping Wang becomes more problematic. You can't just ignore that as part of the equation either.

I have zero problems with giving up a draft pick to get Lohse considering how he has pitched for the Brewers. If the idea is that we picked up Wang to compensate for the lost draft pick, then no, I don't think it was worth it. Whether we pick up Wang or not, we still get to keep Lohse. They really have nothing to do with each other. I assume you didn't have a problem with it when he signed either. Not being sarcastic since there were plenty of people who didn't have a problem with it. Myself included. I was more or less addressing the group of people that thought it was too much to lose for Lohse. Now it's just the value of the last man on the roster for a minimum of 90 days instead of the loss of 6 years of a potential major contributor. I think it is a smart way to offset the loss of the pick and still keep everyone who will contribute far more than the average 25th man on the roster for a year would.

AS has been mentioned if we keep Wang he replaces the draft pick we lost by signing Lohse. So keeping him means we get three years of Lohse for the equivalent of a 25th man on the roster for a year. If someone offered you the chance to get Lohse and all it would cost you is a competent 25th man on the roster for one season would anyone not take that deal?

Both he and Gomez won gold gloves since the trade. I was just looking at Hardy's stats. Low OBP with some power. He's Yuni B. with defense!!!

2. The star factor. When that stuff was going on with major stars like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, and more recent ARod/Braun today, it leaves a bigger taint than most guys getting busted in the NFL. For the most part, it's mainly just the quarterbacks and some elite skill position players who are the stars in football. They aren't the ones getting busted usually. A lot of good points but I am not so sure about this one. Fans can name name football players than baseball players. The NFL is just so much more popular that it is inevitable. Go back to the season Shawne Merriman got busted for PEDS. He was one of the defensive stars in the league at the time. He was even being mentioned as a defensive player of the year candidate despite being suspended for PEDS.

Arm fatigue, shoulder fatigue, lower back tightness, arm/shoulder discomfort... the list of possible ailments goes on & on. Wouldn't look suspicious at all - like you say, it's seen all over the league. Does it happen all over the league with rule 5 guys another team was sorry to lose? I think it's possible to stash him away for a small DL stint but I think it would be much harder to stash him for the remainder of the season. Pittsburgh would have something to say about it. And the medical side would have to be validated if they did.

I think Hamilton gives great insight. for example he was talking about how Schafer needs to approach hitting. He mentioned with his speed Schafer needs to learn to stop elevating balls and that would determine whether he sticks in the majors or not. Shortly after Schafer popped up. He knew what he was talking about and tactfully criticized him for his current approach. He was both accurate and diplomatic in his assessment. I learned something as a fan listening and never felt like he was dogging the player. Just mentioned what he needed to do and let the play determine the wisdom of it.

Betancourt and McGehee, though bad starters, OPS'ed well over the .543 and .318 currently carried by Overbay and Bianchi. They also sucked defensively. The choice it seems is to have one or the other. If they were good at both they would be starters somewhere. I tend to like more offensive type players on the bench with one solid defensive guy in the mix. You get more use out of them due to the pinch hitting aspect of it. I think there is need for both types though and we do have Weeks who is quite a good offensive bench player. I'd jus trather the mix be slanted more towards offense than it currently is. It's also apples to oranges because you're talking about a player who is exclusively a first baseman, arguably the easiest position to fill in a pinch. The experience of the last season and a half should go some ways to dispelling that notion. I'd also like Taylor Green up here as well. I know he's not on the 40 man roster but he could just take Overbay's spot. Even if he only hits as "well" as Overbay, he has position flexibility that Overbay doesn't. I always liked Green so I am biased but I think his minor league track record is better than Morris. He's been mostly good setting aside the injury marred seasons while Morris has been pretty mediocre aside from that one great season. Just seems to me there is a reason why Green had some off seasons. Morris on the other hand just seems to be showing who he is. I think they could move Hellweg to the 60 day DL to make room. While I agree, I have to wonder aloud if the reason he is being kept around is for the "designated veteran leadership role." The clubhouse chemistry on this team seems very high and I have to wonder if DM and RR think it has to do with the presence of a player like O. I think Gomez is the the straw that stirs the drink. AS TLB mentioned this team is not exactly made up of youngsters anymore.

I agree making up an injury is not going to happen. Claiming dead arm or something might work to get an overworked reliever a little rest but not a guy who another team has a vested interest in. You might be able to get him a 15 day DL stay but I seriously doubt a phantom injury is going to allow him to stay on the DL for a couple months. As far as Wang's projection to add a few miles on his fastball I think he could. He is not all that far removed from TJ surgery and is still young enough to add a mile or two anyway. I also remember Ron saying something about Wang not throwing his hardest because he was more interested in throwing strikes and has not really aired it out like he can. All things considered I wouldn't read too much in the average fastball reading this season. I'm not sure what the "especially with the Brewers pitching coaches" is supposed to mean but I don't think ours are somehow less capable than any others. Our current staff seems to be doing well under them and I can't say I've noticed our pitchers suddenly losing velocity when they get here.