paul253

The Brewers were never going to trade Brinson and given the return the A's got they wouldn't have had to. This thread needs to be bumped in two years becuase one way or another a lot of people are going to be dramatically wrong about Sonny Gray.

One top 100 prospect according to MLB pipeline (#77). To me this seems roughly equivalent to Ray Ortiz and Diaz. I would have done that deal.

If they don't add a reliever then it doesn't look like they are even trying. I can understand not looking for a starter given how well the starters have been doing and I can even understand standing pat on the offense as the team just needs to come out of an extended slump. But the bullpen has been pretty bad all year long and if we are going to stay in contention we have to be able to hold onto late leads.

It would be great in the big picture if it were a team like us doing it. Chicago can make up for their lack of prospects by signing free agents, overspending on the draft and overspending on international free agents. Chicago doesn't need to rely on their farm system as much as we do so I don't think them trading away their top prospects is as big a deal as some make it out to be. The guys they traded to get Quintana are 3-4 years away from the majors, if they even make it. A lot can happen in 3-4 years. Meanwhile the Cubs are improving their major league team for the next few years, which is ultimately the goal.

Give them Phillips and give them Woodruff or Ortiz plus another guy or two

They need to add another quality bullpen arm, preferably one that will be around next season too.

Brinson does not have more value than Gray right now. He might in the future but right now Gray is the more valuale player. LOL. You're dismissing his entire season because he's playing in Colorado Springs? Fine then I'm dismissing some of last year because he played in BC which is a pitcher friendly park. And I'm also dismissing Lewis Brinsons numbers too then because surely the only reason he is hitting well is becuase of the thin air. Even if you accept the Colorado Springs argument his ERA for away games is 3.69. Yeah that's pretty decent but hardly dominating. In fact in his last ten games his ERA is over 6. Again I'm not arguing that he isn't a good pitcher. I'm simply saying calling him "untouchable" is ridiculous.

I'm in the "don't trade Brinson for Gray" camp. I'd be curious as to what else, if anything, Oakland would expect in return. If we give up Brinson they can't seriously expect another top prospect, especially one of our top pitchers. I'd throw in a Medeiros or a Coulter type but not much else. On a side note I just realized that I included two former first round picks as throw-ins for a trade. Man we've had some bad first round picks.

Also why are you only posting stats from 2016? Why not his 2017 numbers? 14 starts with 4.79 ERA and a 2.91 K/BB ratio vs 4.33 last year? Doesn't make him look as untouchable when you look at more than his best year.

Overrating in the sense that some people are calling him "untouchable" Think about what that means. That means you wouldn't trade him for anyone. Yes he's putting up good numbers in AAA. So did Ben Hendrickson. So did Manny Parra. So did Dana Eveland. So did a host of other prospects. Maybe he'll turn out to be a great #1-#2 type pitcher. But the chances of that happening are slim. So to call him "untouchable". Yes I do think is overrating him.

Yeah I think some of us are seriously overrating our pitching prospects. I'm sorry but Brandon Woodruff should not be considered untouchable.

Three reasons. First, Jimenez is in low A ball. I don't care how good of a prospect you are that's a big risk. Brinson, on the other hand is major league ready. I don't know anything about Jimenez but I'd take Brinson over him in a heartbeat just because I know for a fact Brinson will play in the major leagues for sure. Second, after Jimenez the rest of the guys the Sox got are kind of meh. Cease is a top 100 guy, true, but he's also in A ball. Big big risk. I believe he has an injury history as well. The Brewers can offer guys just as talented (Ortiz or Burnes for example) who are much closer to the majors. Additionally, the third and fourth pieces can be better quality than the third and fourth pieces the Sox got. Third. The Yankees are said to be the front runners for Gray yet they are reportedly refusing to move their top three or four guys as well. Frazier, Torres, and some others. The A's might eventually get a better offer but I think we can make a reasonable offer without Brinson. In other words, if it was just us negotiating with Oakland I have no doubt they could make a deal without giving up Brinson.

Broxton and Villar have absolutely zero value. If Anderson and Nelson were pitching as they are now and we were still in full sell mode then maybe we could get a decent prospect for them but certainly not an organizational changing type player. Probably the only person with any decent value we have is Knebel but this years relief market is nothing like last years. I'd guess if we were in full sell mode we'd walk away with one or two prospects who are in our 15-20 range and two more in our 20-30 range. And normally I root for draft position but I've been so disappointed with our recent first round picks I don't even care about that anymore.

If you've followed the thread then you know I want Gray. So yes absolutely I want Stearns to trade for him, assuming we don't have to give up Brinson. Will I be disappointed if we don't get him? In the same way that I'm disappointed when I don't win the lottery. I want it but I'm not really thinking much of it because I know it ain't happening.

He'll give us a better chance than Michael Blazek will. Look as terrible as we've been playing post all star break were all of one and a half games out of first place if the Cubs win tonight. The road trip trip is over. We can regroup and get our heads together. I realize Gray is an afterthought right now but like Mr T Plush says he can help more than this year. I personally dont see any chance Hader is in the rotation next year (or ever for that matter). So we have Burnes (who is not MLB ready and probably won't be until the end of next year at the earliest) and Woodruff, who might be a nice back of the rotation starter. By all means give them a chance when they are ready. But why do we have to wait on trying to win until we see how they handle being in the major league rotation? I can't imagine Anderson and Nelson are now all of a sudden sub 3 ERA pitchers. So rather than hope for a miracle with Anderson and Nelson continuing to be lights out and Woodruff and Burnes and Hader all coming into the rotation and instantly becoming quality starters why not go out an actually get an established (yes he's established) quality (yes he's quality) starter and take the pressure off all those other guys? Then we won't have to rely on the Michael Blazeks of the organization when we are still chasing a division title? Next year you'd have a rotation of Gray, Nelson, and Anderson with Garza, Davies and Woodruff as possibilities to round it out. That, along with a solid albeit inconsistent offense and a hopefully rebuilt bullpen can keep us in the wildcard hunt while we wait on the other prospects to see if they pan out. But yeah, the "oh we aren't as good as the Cubs are now so we shouldn't trade for Gray" argument makes no sense to me. To me, trading for a guy with the talent and the contract of Gray makes all the sense in the world. Having said that, Im not delusional. I know it's not happening.

Even if that's true we aren't the Yankees. On this team he'd be the two but on this team he'd be the three and in that team he'd be the four. Who cares? On the Brewers he'd probably be the number 1 pitcher, which means we would acquire a player who is our best starting pitcher. If he's only a number three then he's a damn good number three. And what does that make the rest of our staff? I get that health is a concern but he's healthy now and he's pitching really well now. There are just as many risks in holding on to an Ortiz or a Woodruff. Two years ago nobody would have wanted to trade Lopez either. I'm sure it doesn't need to be repeated how incredibly awful we've been at developing our own starting pitchers. These guys are far from sure things. Far far from sure things. Trading away one of them isn't going to be the end of the world but if t turns out to bite us in the butt three years from now, what are you going to do? We tried. In three years we'll have a whole new crop of prospects we'll be talking about anyway. Offensively the Brewers have developed a really nice core of guys who can be around for awhile. What we need is pitching. If you can acquire a Sonny Gray or a different quality starter you won't have to rely on Jimmy Nelson and Chase Anderson to have career years every time you want to compete.

I'll add that in July he's 3-1 with a 1.48 ERA and a 25/7 K/BB ratio in 24.1 innings.

Yeah if Morosi's report is true and the Yankees are making progress on obtaining both Gray and Alonso without including Torres, Sheffield or Frazier in the deal then we should absolutely outbid them.

If we can acquire Gray for Ray, Ortiz, and another prospect (who would presumably be lesser than those two) we'd be fools not to do so in my opinion.

I don't understand this thread. People are calling Gray a 3 at best and simultaneously saying he's going to cost a kings ransom to get. Those ideas seem to contradict each other. He's not getting a kings ransom if he is a three, an injury prone three at that. I also highly doubt that Beane would hang up on the Brewers if they refuse to deal Brinson. If Oakland wants a CF they can basically have their choice of Ray, Phillips, Clark, Cordell and Harrison, and heck even Broxton as a third or fourth piece if they want to take the chance that he gets it together They can also probably get a decent pitching prospect or two. Milwaukee has plenty to offer past Brinson and I don't think Beane is insisting on a consensus top 20 overall prospect for Gray.

In my opinion: Top Prospects: Brinson. Burnes. Next tier: Hader. Ortiz. Phillips. Woodruff. Hiura. Next tier: Ray. Clark. Erceg. Diaz. Cordell. Dubon. Harrison. Gatewood. Bickford. That's my rationale behind being willing to move some of these guys. I wouldn't move Brinson and I'd only move Burnes if it didn't involve another of the top four pitchers. I think people who view 8 or 9 of our prospects as "top prospects" are putting way too much faith in our guys. Interesting enough neither BA or MLB seems too high on Burns. MLB has him as our #6 and BA as our #5

To each his own I guess. Gray actually has a lower career ERA and is far younger and far cheaper. I think the fact that Verlander would cost significantly less in terms of prospects shows that Gray is currently the better pitcher. I also kind of chuckle at the people who think we would have to "give up the farm" to acquire Gray. But whatever. It looks as though it isn't happening so let's hope DS can find some other way to keep this team in contention.

Can I just ask why you'd prefer to trade for the guy that is almost 7 years older, is insanely expensive and having a significantly worse season?

With all due respect that's a terrible strategy. Most prospects will flop. Even when a lot of them come together all at once and we have a really good core of guys like we did in 2007-2012 how did we get into the playoffs both times? We traded prospects for established players. If we never trade prospects and instead hope that enough of them succeed and then say "oh well let's try again" if they don't then this franchise will be a consistent middle to lower tier team. For Gray: I said I'd give up one of Hader/Ortiz/Burnes/Woodruff plus other prospects who don't include Brinson. For a reliever: I challenge your notion that it will take two "top prospects" to obtain one. I don't think it'll even take one. I think one or two mid tier prospects will do. On the offense: Yes it needs to improve. It needs to be like it was earlier in the season. If you missed my earlier post which clearly you did I said we could possibly use an upgrade at second and maybe to the bench and that's all that I see. To even suggest that I'd trade "the rest of or top prospects" to improve the offense is not even close to what I said I'd do. I'm talking about moving maybe 4-5 prospects of who no more than 2 would be "top prospects" but the way you sum things up you'd think I want to empty out our entire top 10.

Or a great plan when he continues to pitch like he has of the course of most of his career and then Hader sticks in the bullpen and Woodruff pulls a Peralta and gets DFAd in four years. We can all make assumptions as to what is going to happen but the fact is none of us know. Gray could very well spend most of the next two seasons hurt. He could also spend the next two seasons pitching like he did in 2015 and receive Cy Young votes. I just don't understand this reliance people want to have on our pitching prospects. Hasn't history taught you anything? The liklihod that they all reach their potential is almost nil.