paul253

As I said, teams are allowed to make more than one trade. I think they need to add a reliever too. I think those two moves will definitely keep us in contention yes. And then there's 2018 and 2019 as well. I guess I don't consider pointin out how they are both pitching considerably better than they ever have is "thinking low of them". You need to be realistic. Chances of this being their new norm are remote. But even if they aren't so what? Now you have another good pitcher. I've never said it would be enough. Definitely the offense needs to improve. I just don't understand how adding a good starting pitcher doesn't help our team. Come on. The 5 on a World Series team sometimes doesn't even make the roster. You're telling me that he wouldn't even make the roster or if he did he wouldn't make a start? How many teams have three, let alone four starting pitchers better than Gray.

That is an awfully big assumption. Anderson and Nelson both are pitching significantly better than they ever have. Assuming that that is who they are now is a big big assumption. Not making a move based on that would be a mistake. I'm sorry but I'd argue that if we acquired Gray he'd be our best starting pitcher. People who argue that he is a 3 at best are not doing him justice in my opinion. I think he's a solid 2 when he's at his best and maybes borderline 2-3 in general. That's better than almost all of our starters in general.

I'm looking at Santana's splits this season and trying to understand why on earth he should be platooned.

Well there is also Broxton. I imagine they don't want to just give up on him now. And while Cordell can be sent to the minors that doesn't really do anyone any good. I imagine we didn't select him as the PTBNL just so he could be minor league depth. No matter how you look at it the Brewers have a logjam in the outfield. Now is the time to do something about it before the prospects start to lose their value. It also helps that we are still in contention for a playoff spot.

I understand the point. But doesn't basing the decision on only the past few games seem a little shortsighted? We shouldnt trade for Gray and his two plus seasons of control because of offense has been uncharacteristicly bad these last three series? As for what bats I'm suggesting? I'm not really. The only position I see as possibly needing an outside upgrade is second base but with Sogard back that need is lessened in my opinion. We could maybe trade for a veteran utility guy but that's about it as far as I see as need. We just need our guys to come out of their funk. I think sending Broxton down was a good move and if Phillips doesn't work out then you bring Brinson back up. I do think we should add a bullpen are or two though.

And Junior Guerra's arm has been helping us so much? And people realize we are allowed to make more than one trade right? Just because we trade for Gray doesn't mean we can't get a bat too.

Who has EVER suggested giving up Brinson Hader and Burnes for Sonny Gray? Be real. And I'm trying to understand the point you're trying to make. The thread isn't as active as before so therefore people don't want Gray anymore? I'd still trade Hader Phillips and another piece for him. He'd still be, in my opinion, the best overall starting pitcher on the team and he'd still help us the next two years. Nothing has changed in my mind. And for what it's worth, perhaps the thread has died down because the talk of Gray to the Brewers has died down some. That's a better theory then all of a sudden people don't want him anymore.

Then again, just say you aren't willing to trade what it will take to get him. An offer with Cordell as the second best piece and none of our top 4 pitching prospects isn't going to get it done isn't going to get him I wouldn't say I'm down on him I'm just telling it how I see it. And that is as a future bullpen arm. We cannot use him as a starter if he can only go five innings due to high pitch counts. And when I see him pitch I see awful command. Unless it improves I think it'll eventually catch up to him when teams see him enough. This is definitely a bet I'd be willing to take. You don't think Sonny Gray is going to fetch a top 50-75 prospect? Oakland would be fools to trade him for anything less. Heck Will Smith fetched a top 100 prospect last season. I think some people just have too much faith in our prospects, or prospects in general. The vast vast majority of them flame out and many more never reach their potential. It really does boggle my mind how some are refusing to move even one single top 10 organizational prospect to get Sonny Gray. I may very well be overvaluing him but you then are most certainly undervaluing him. Sonny Gray is worth more than Phillips, Cordell and some junk.

As I've mentioned before though this isn't an either/or. It's not either win now and gut the system or stick to the rebuild. We can likely acquire Gray without giving up more than two of our top prospects. And we get to keep Gray for at least two more seasons after this to help win in the future. I don't think we should vastly overpay but I'd definitely be willing to part with, say, Hader Phillips Diplan and a fourth piece (Lopez/Ponce/Cordell). If thats not good enough then pass. But let's say we do that and it doesn't work out for us this year. What have we lost going into next year? Hader, who will likely either start out in the bullpen or the AAA rotation while he tries to figure out how to command his pitches, Phillips who will likely start out on the bench or in AAA, Cordell who will likely start out on the bench or in AAA and/or another pitching prospect who isn't in our top 10 and will be in AA likely. Meanwhile we have Brinson, who should be an upgrade over Broxton, taking over Center. We have Ortiz Burnes and Woodruff likely in AAA and continuing their development. We can sign some relievers to help solidify the bullpen and we have options for second base (Sogard/Villar/Dubon/FA). Everyone else is back. The payroll is still low. And we have our probable new #1 pitcher in Gray which means we don't have to rely on Chase Anderson repeating his so far amazing season. To me it's a win-win. I just don't see how this in any way changes the plan or somehow hurts the future. Obviously it depends on what you give up but Gray is not going to bring back 4 top 100 prospects. Probably not even 3. That's fine but how are we going to give a long look to Cordell, Phillips and Brinson, all of whom are putting up numbers good enough in AAA to warrant a call up? Obviously the answer is we can't because we can't play 6 outfielders at once. As I mentioned before, every time I made a comment about drafting an acquiring all these outfielders I was told "well we can use them as trade bait" or "it'll work itself out". But now nobody seems to want to use them as trade bait. And meanwhile there is nowhere to put them all other than the bench or the minors. This is a problem that we are going to have to do something about. I don't see it working itself out.

Scouts. Their entire job is to figure out what a players ceiling is. Obviously they can be wrong on guys and often are but for the most part you know what you're getting with any given player. Over the course of 14 innings. With 11 walks. Derrick Turnbow "proved filthy" once too. Look I'm not saying the guy isn't good or can't reach his potential. Im not hoping they trade him but if we want to get a guy like Gray we're going to need to give something up. People need to be realistic with these scenarios. We'll take Gray from you and you can have Medeiros, Ray and Peralta. These aren't genuine proposals. Whether we care to admit it or not Oakland is going to get a nice haul for Gray. As another poster (I forget who) said if you don't want to give up what it takes to get Gray then just say so. But we cannot seriously claim we want Gray then refuse to give up Hader Ortiz Burnes and Woodruff. Every scouting I've read says his likely ceiling as that of mid to back end starter. If I'm missing something that says he can turn into a 1 or 2 I apologize. But I've been fooled by good minor league numbers before. Didn't Wily Peralta once have the upside of a 3? Would 6 years of him held more value then 2+ years of an established, quality major league pitcher who finished 3rd in the Cy Young balloting? I appreciate your optimism and I certainly hope you're right but you seem to have this assumption that every prospect we have is going to reach their potential. That ignores are sorts of history. Brandon Woodruff and Corbin Burnes and Josh Hader could very well headline our rotation for the next 6 years and all reach or exceed their potential. I'm certainly rooting for that. Or every single one of them could flame out. Forgive my cynicism but I've seen good pitching prospects in the Brewers system before that I've been excited about. And other than Ben Sheets, Yovani Gallardo and maybe Jimmy Nelson every one of them has failed to live up to their expectations. That certainly doesn't mean the ones we have now will also fail but it does give me pause to just automatically assume their going to be quality pitchers and we shouldn't move them for established players. We have an opportunity to obtain a quality MLB pitcher who has already had major league success, will probably instantly be the best pitcher on the roster and can help us for multiple years. Yes it's risky but so is relying on unproven prospects. We have the unique opportunity to make a trade that helps us now without sacrificing the future. We have a glut of outfielders and a number of quality pitching prospects (emphasis on prospects). We will have to give up two good prospects plus some but we will obtain a quality player in return. Because Gray has already reached his upside. If Woodruff reaches his he'd probably be a similar pitcher in terms of quality. But if he doesn't then you lose out. That's the risk in relying on prospects. And for what it's worth between Hader Burnes Woodruff and Ortiz I'm only willing to move one in a trade for Gray. The other headliner has to be an outfielder or other position player. I'm certainly not anti prospect and unwilling to hang on to them to see if they pan out.. I of course realize the value of them but I also realize the risk.

Because I see Hader as a bullpen arm. The admittedly few times I've seen him pitch it seems like nobody has any idea where the ball is going. His command is awful. Even when he was pitching real well in the minors he was only going 5 innings or so because he was throwing way too many pitches. I just don't see him starting games, at least not any time soon. Burnes is putting up really good numbers as well but his ceiling is that of a 4 or 5. Mike Fiers put up really good minor league numbers too. I'm not saying that'a not worth something. Nor am I saying he'll for sure only be a 4 or 5. But that his profile. Woodruff I also see as a 3 or 4. Now don't get me wrong. I don't want to trade any of them. But you have to give up something to get something. I personally think Gray is already a better starting pitcher than any of them will turn out to be. So therefore trading one of them wouldn't be the end of the world. What exactly is our plan? Because I could have sworn it was to build a consistent winner. Trading away some prospects, of which we have plenty and some of whom are major league ready but currently blocked, doesn't mean we are abandoning our plan. Wasn't the whole argument for acquiring outfielder after outfielder after outfielder after outfielder that we could trade some of them away for quality MLB players? Now that opportunity has arrived and people are acting like if we trade away a prospect we are abandoning our future. Face it. We do not have room on our major league roster for Braun and Broxton and Brinson and Perez and Phillips and Santana and Cordell. Nor do we room in our rotation for Davies and Woodruff and Hader and Nelson and Guerra and Anderson and Suter and Derby and Jungmann, all of whom we make a decent case for being in the rotation right now (plus Burnes and Ortiz in AA). Whenever people like me make a comment about drafting or trading for prospects who play a position we are already loaded at we are told "Don't worry the logjam will work its way out". Well guess what. The outfield logjam is not going to work its way out. We will have to do something about it. So why not use some of those guys, plus some of our pitching prospects, to acquire a quality major league pitcher who will be here for at least three more years? I don't understand how trading guys we currently have nowhere to put other than the bench or the minors, where they don't need to be, changes our plan? Our plan was to win. We are winning. So how about we try to maybe accelerate the plan?

Can I just add that just because certain people are suggesting we need Gray or another starter that doesn't mean we are "panicking" or "freaking out". Repeating "R-E-L-A-X" doesn't help much. I do agree we shouldn't read too much into the past few days but the fact is the Brewers have several starters who are pitching over their heads, namely Nelson and Anderson, and getting a guy like Gray who, short of one injury plagued season, has been a pretty solid pitcher would help not only this year but the next few years as well. Who cares if he is an "ace" or not. He's a solid pitcher. Next year we'll lose Garza. Who knows if Guerra gets it together or if Woodruff is ready but Gray would probably be our best starter. So it's not just about helping hold off the Cubs it's about making our team better for the next several seasons. We clearly have the prospects to get him. We have at least six guys who could be playing every day in the outfield right now so let's trade one or two of them while their value is still high. My offer for Gray would be headlined by Phillips and Hader along with two lower ceiling guys. I just can't pull the trigger on moving Brinson. He should be our every day CF next year. But I think if the A's insist on Brinson they're not being realistic.

Very deep system. A top ten with no Bickford, Phillips or Clark. (Whatever happened to Bickford anyway? I know he was suspended 50 games but that has been up for awhile now and still no Bickford). It's amazing how far this system has come in 2-3 years. It wasn't all that long ago that Coulter and Taylor were our top two prospects.

I'm not sure relying on a pitcher whose never pitched a major league inning or two guys who are back from fairly significant injuries is the best decision either. By the time you know what you have in Woodruff and you see if Anderson is the same Anderson as he was before he got hurt you're opportunity to get a quality player will be gone. We have an amazing amount of depth in the outfield. Unfortunately we can't have six guys playing the outfield a the same time so unless you think it's a good idea to keep guys like Brinson and Phillips either in the minors or on the bench then you best trade someone to help alleviate the logjam (and yes it is a logjam at this point). Trading from a huge area of depth to acquire a solid MLB player with multiple years of control on a very reasonable contact is not as big a risk as some are making it out to be.

You're not worried about our biggest rival and closest challenger going out and getting quality major leaguers who will help them for multiple years because they are trading away prospects who are currently in A ball? I wish I shared your optimism. The Brewers don't need to, and should not, mortgage their future for the sake of matching the Cubs move for move. But the fact is if they are serious about winning this season, which in my opinion they should be, then they should definitely look to make some moves to shore up some holes.

The way I see it is that the Brewers currently have at least five players who could/should be starting major league outfielders: Braun, Santana, Broxton, Brinson, and Phillips. Throw in Perez and that's another one. They are going to have to do something about this sooner rather than later. You cannot keep Brinson and Phillips in the minors for too long. So why not trade one of them and shore up a weakness in the rotation? I obviously prefer to keep Brinson as I believe he should be the starting CF next season, but if we trade him I also think Phillips could be the starter there. I'd try to make a deal for Gray with Phillips and Ortiz as the centerpieces. If Ortiz isn't enough then Hader, whom I view as a future bullpen arm. But I think the Brewers are in a unique position in which they can trade for a quality arm without mortgaging the future.

If the White Sox were insisting on Brinson then I'm glad we didn't make the deal. He just has too much upside to trade and is pretty much MLB ready. I do think a deal of Hader Ray Clark and another throw in would have been a better return for the Sox and I think the Brewers could have afforded to make that move. Oh well.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/white-sox-maintain-high-asking-price-on-quintana.html?fv-home=true&post-id=96921 According to this report the White Sox are still looking for "two very top prospects" for Quintana. Would Hader and Ray be considered "very top prospects"? I think both would be ideal pieces to give up for Quintana as we have a plethora of guys who can play the same positions as Ray and I really question whether Hader has the control to ultimately be a starter. Add another prospect or two and I think it'd be a good get.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/white-sox-maintain-high-asking-price-on-quintana.html?fv-home=true&post-id=96921 According to this report the White Sox are still looking for "two very top prospects" for Quintana. Would Hader and Ray be considered "very top prospects"? I think both would be ideal pieces to give up for Quintana as we have a plethora of guys who can play the same positions as Ray and I really question whether Hader has the control to ultimately be a starter. Add another prospect or two and I think it'd be a good get.

The thing about trading for Quintana or Gray is that it doesn't limit you to a one or two year window. Both are controllable for three years after this so they can be part of the future. And the salaries are more than reasonable. So while I totally agree that we shouldn't tear down what we've built up I do actually think we can make the trade without doing that. The only untouchable I see is Brinson. And I wouldn't trade more than one of Hader, Ortiz and Woodruff. Even then I think we have more than enough to get either if we wanted. My preference is Quintana and I think with one of Hader, Ortiz and Woodruff plus either Ray or Phillips plus two other pieces and I think we can get it done. If we do this though we also need to add a bullpen arm. Preferably one that is signed thru at least next year. All of our pieces will be back next year and we can add Brinson in CF and keep Broxton as insurance for Braun. I think it's a win win. I'd go for it.

Even if these guys don't reach their ceilings or turn into all stars developing your own pitching saves a ton of money. Up until this season Peralta wasn't all that bad so if youre going to use him as an example you have to decide if his time here was worth more or less than a half season of whoever it is you were going to trade him for 8 years ago. We still have very few quality pitching prospects and while trading for guys like Quintana or Gray, who have multiple years of control, won't hurt as much as trading for a half season rental we still need our own guys to fill the rotation so we can spend our money elsewhere. For Quintana or Gray (preferrably Quintana) Id only include Hader, Ortiz or Woodruff but not more than one. The rest of the package would have to help ease our crowded outfield situation, though Brinson to me is untouchable as I see him as having a chance to be a perennial all star. So my best offer for Quintana would be: Woodruff/Hader/Ortiz + Ray/Phillips + 2 lesser guys (Lopez/Cordell/Medeiros/Cooper/Ponce/Orimoloye/etc). For Gray I offer less.

I get it. But we could ask them about Sonny Gray for Tyrone Talyor and Clint Coulter. I guess what I was getting at is that I doubt Oakland would even consider a package like that so it seems like kind of a waste of time to ask about it. You are talking about an outfielder who is ok, a pitcher who is struggling big time and has only had one year of success ever, and two borderline prospects, one of who probably isn't even an organizational top 30 prospect. I'm sorry but that's just not going to do it. Teams should never overpay but they often do because of the circumstances. The fact that Gray is one of the top available arms means Oakland will be asking a lot. And even if you don't overpay you will have to give up someone of value. I just don't think any one of those four players you mention really have any trade value. Like I said I think they'll demand either Hader or Woodruff plus another top prospect. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Gray if we can get him for Hader and Ray I'd seriously consider it.

Oakland isn't going to just accept our junk and a few OK prospects for one of the top available deadline arms. Cooper is having a hell of a year in AAA but he's 26 and has yet to do anything in the major leagues. Guerra is struggling big time and has one year wonder written all over him. Broxton is a decent player and Peralta is a decent prospect but they can't be centerpieces in a deal for Gray. Oakland will want at least Hader or Woodruff plus another top prospect.

I hang onto Brinson Woodruff and Ortiz. If we can get Quintana for a package that doesn't include any of them I'd be ok with it. Center it around Ray and Hader and add in two more lower tier guys. Maybe Medeiros or Lopez and maybe Cordell or Orimoloye. Quintana for Ray, Hader Medeiros and Cordell? Too much? Not enough?

It sounds like he can barely play second. I think SS is definitely out and I doubt he has the arm for third.