paul253

I fail to see how this is screwing anyone. Is this going to stop him from being in the rotation next year? No. Is pitching in MLB somehow going to stunt his development? Highly unlikely. Let's ask Wily Peralta about this. It very well may have prevented him from being in the rotation right now. It may have also stunted his developing by the fact that he had at least 5 awful starts since he returned to the Nashville rotation and it took him two months to get back on track. To me, the risk of making him do something he hasn't done as a professional, pitch out of the bullpen, outweighs the possible reward. As another poster mentioned he'd help the team more by replacing Wolf in the rotation. Like many have said there's no reason he can't move to the rotation after trading a starting pitcher. If the Brewers are planning on trading a starting pitcher then what is the point of taking him out of the rotation then putting him right back in in 2 weeks? Why not just keep in the Nashville rotation until the deadline to see where he is needed instead of making him change his routine twice?

I understand and agree with you, but last year, at the All-Star break, did anyone really see the Cardinals getting on their tear? It wasn't just the Cardinals going on a tear, it was the Braves falling apart too. This argument only helps if there is one team ahead of you. Currently there are 6.

From what I've seen, many project Thornburg to be a reliever at some point anyway. Even if they plan on starting him down the road, lots of guys have started in the pen before becoming very successful starters. The guys has had a tremendous amount of success as a starter at every single level he's pitched at and you are ok with him moving to the bullpen because some scouts said he looked like a reliever? And yes some guys have started off as relievers before moving to the rotation but even more of them have gone directly to starting. Pitching out of the bullpen is not a requirement to be a major league pitcher.

I doubt Detroit would give up Castellanos for Weeks but I'd do it instantly. Taylor Green can handle 2nd base for a year until Scooter Gennett is ready. You'd pretty much have to punt on 2013 if you trade Greinke and Weeks but at this point I think it might be inevitable anyway. If you can somehow acquire Castellanos for Weeks by 2014 you add in him plus Gennett and probably a pitcher or two (Bradley, Burgos, Jungmann, Nelson) and maybe some other guys (Morris, Kh. Davis). This in addition to presumed 2013 regulars Thornburg, Peralta, Fiers and Rogers (bullpen) and the core players in Braun Gallardo and Lucroy and 2014 could really be the beginning of something good.

I would guess most posters here agree with the move, I do I don't. I hate this move. You take the number #1 pitching prospect in the entire system, one who is probably going to be counted on heavily next season at the major league level as a starter, and ship him off to rot in the bullpen while Randy Wolf and Marco Estrada continue to make starts? Why? We have a dozen other guys who could do that. Wily Peralta came up and pitched out of the bullpen and when he returned to the Nashville rotation he fell apart. He is just now getting back into a groove. I can't say it was completely related but why even risk that with Thornburg? Why do anything to disrupt his normal routine? This move just defines to me how Doug Melvin and his managers run this organization and renews my fear the even if he does trade Zack Greinke he is going to blow it by insisting on lower ceiling major league talent in return. This organization just will not give a young player the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance without making him prove himself first. The few times they do (Lucroy, Fiers) happen out of absolute desperation when there is literally nobody else to turn to. And for all those who point to the fact that we are only 6 out of the wildcard spot, while it's true, we just have to hope we can pass Miami, Arizona, San Francisco, St Louis, New York and Atlanta. My point being that while we are only 6 out, there are 6 teams in a better position to grab the last wildcard spot right now than we are. Changing the long man in your bullpen isn't going to make any sort of significant impact on your chances. Tim Dillard isn't the reason we are 5 games under .500 right now.

Well that scouting report certainly makes it seem like he can stay at SS so if LAA comes calling he is definitely the name to start with.

What are the odds Segura can stay at shortstop?

Mat Gamel is also left handed.

If the Brewers have an opportunity to get out of the Ramirez contract you do it. Taylor Green can handle third base for the time being. And then when you trade Greinke you can target a guy like Olt from Texas or Castellanos from Detroit. I'd trade Ramirez for Hairston if LA pays the majority of Ramirez salary. But yes you're right. Mark A. would never allow us to trade a veteran so we can play a rookie, no matter how much it saves us.

you are perpetually waiting for an entirely home-grown core that is competitive year-after-year, and which is never going to materialize. We had a home grown core but now that core is breaking up so we need to make sure we have a new core to replace them. By trading a guy like Hart or Weeks you are hopefully replacing an old "core" member with a new one. This is how a small market team competes more than one or two years at a time.

Watching the futures game...I pretty much want all of them. It makes me think the Brewers would be foolish if they hang onto Greinke. Olt, Castellanos, Machado, Rondon, Segura (if he can stay at SS) are all guys who interest me. Would a Greinke/KRod for Castellano/Rondon deal work?

I think hanging onto Hart as opposed to trading him and maximizing his value while he still has some would be a major mistake. If we not only hang onto him but extend him I really question if Doug Melvin is the type of GM who should be running a small market franchise. Corey Hart is not a franchise player and paying him $12 million a year for three or four years would be foolish.

If they brought up Logan Schafer he'll just sit on the bench like Green did. No way Roenecke will play him ahead of Gomez or Morgan.

I'm not giving another team a discount His value is only what someone is willing to give us for him. If nobody is willing to give us a top 25 prospect it wouldn't be a "discount" to accept a prospect in the 25-50 range. In an average draft for team with an average farm system the guys you pick in the mid to late first round and the comp round will generally rank in the 7-15 range as far as organizational top 20 prospects. Your system has to be pretty bad if you draft a guy at #27 and he becomes a top three prospect in your system. So if we trade Greinke for Mike Olt for instance, Olt might not be Texas top prospect but he'll certainly be one of our top 3 or 4. It'll be better than anything we can get in the draft. I'm not sure I'd say the same about Jon Schoop but Nick Castellanos, Julio Teheran and I'm sure a few others would fit that mold. If we don't get any high ceiling prospects then what's the point? And again, nobody is suggesting we give Greinke away. I think pretty much everyone wants to resign him but that's not looking realistic right now. So we have to determine which value is better: what we will get in a trade or what we'll get in the draft. If we use this past draft as a measuring stick that would mean if we can do better than Clint Coulter and Mitch Haniger we should pull the trigger. In my opinion, even some of the second tier names we are talking about (Olt, Schoop, Teheran, Castellanos, Perez) would be a better get than anything you're likely to get in the draft. Just because we might not get Profar or Machado or Bundy doesn't mean we just say forget it.

If he is completely unavailable I am going to be very upset. Melvin's over-reliance on older veterans really gets to me sometimes.

I wouldn't be disappointed in getting Schoop back as part of a deal, but I don't think I'd want a Tillman Matusz or Arrieta. Tillman hasn't had any major league success yet and is will be 25 right as next season starts. Arrieta is pretty much in the same boat but two years older. He'll already be 27 before next season. I kind of feel the same way about Matusz. Getting out of the AL East would probably help them out some but if I am going to trade Greinke I'd like it to be for someone who is younger (20-22) and still has a significant amount of upside. By taking Tillman, Arrieta, or Matusz I feel like they are just getting an arm to plug into the rotation.

If no team is willing to pony up a top prospect then I'd just sit on Greinke until the offseason. Offer him a fair extension or let him walk for the comp picks. Getting replacement level starters, as someone else put it, for next season would be the worst case scenario. What the Brewers think is a fair contract and what Greinke thinks is a fair contract are two different things. The Brewers offered Sabathia and Fielder what they thought were fair contracts and both deals got blown out of the water. If the Brewers want Greinke they'll have to overpay for him. I'm not saying that is a bad thing just saying. If we don't trade Greinke we'll end up taking picks for him. Just to compare what we got in last years draft for losing Fielder. Do you think you can do better than Clint Coulter and Mitch Haniger? I'd say we probably could. Another thing to consider is that if the Brewers lose both Greinke and Marcum for picks, they'll get a lot of picks but because of the new rules they'll probably have to go cheap on one or two of the picks. I think trading him is the much safer bet even if you can't get another team's #1 prospect. You are getting a guy who is likely at least 2 or 3 years closer to the bigs and you don't have to worry about signing them.

Very few of those prospects will have as good a career as Hart or be able to even match his production over the remainder of his career. We don't need to measure a "career" for a prospect vs Hart's career when determining whether or not to trade him. We've already had Corey Hart for the prime of his career. We just need to determine if what we can get back will be more valuable to us down the road than what Corey Hart will give us. Scenario A: You keep Hart and extend him for 3 years and $40 million. He puts up decent numbers and plays good defense at first. Scenario B. You trade Hart for a prospect who starts in Milwaukee in 2013. He's paid the league minimum and is cheap for a number of years. He puts up decent numbers but not quite as good as Corey Harts. You could argue, depending on what you value more, on which scenario is better. In Scenario A you get a well liked guy who puts up better numbers. But in Scenario B you get a guy who is cheaper and may allow you to use that money elsewhere to improve your team....say in the bullpen. So what do you do? I tend to take the position that even though Mat Gamel may not put up the power numbers Corey Hart does I'd be ok giving him the job at first because a) I'd like to see what he can do. His numbers in the minors suggest he has the ability to be a good offensive player b) he is much younger and c) he is much cheaper. This team needs help. A lot of help. I don't believe putting Corey Hart at first base over Mat Gamel is going to make as significant an impact on the team's chances next year as signing two solid relievers would. Or using Hart's money to sign Greinke would. And you aren't just giving Corey Hart away. I would expect a fairly high ranked prospect in return for him, be it a pitcher, shortstop, or whatever. His trade value should be pretty high considering he still has an entire year left on his contract.

If you think I'm (we're) being delusional take a look at what the Phillies want for Hamels. The Phillies I believe said they wanted 3-4 prospects? I assume it would be similar to what the Brewers gave up for Sabathia. LaPorta was a top prospect and Brantley was pretty well regarded too. Then there were two lower ceiling pitching prospects. That's quite a bit different than asking for two of the top prospects in all of baseball, including one who some considered to be the one of the best high school pitchers ever. I don't want to seem like a jerk and certainly if Baltimore comes calling you ask for Bundy or Machado. I just think it's extremely unlikely they give either of them up. But giving them both up for Greinke.....well maybe that is a wee bit delusional. Like I said, I would be happy to give up both Greinke and Marcum for Dylan Bundy. I think he is going to be that good.

Bundy or Machado (or both) have to comeback for Greinke Come on. They wouldn't even trade one of them for Greinke, let alone both. For Dylan Bundy I'd give them Greinke AND Marcum. He's the best pitching prospect since Stephen Strasburg. I don't think Baltimore matches up well. They seem a lot like Pittsburgh to me in that their top two prospects are so far ahead of their next best that unless the include one of the top two, which is unlikely, you are going to have to settle for quantity. Jonathan Schoop would be an upgrade over anyone we currently have at SS but he's still probably at least 2 years away and he doesn't seem like he should be the centerpiece of a deal. I think maybe Schoop for Marcum would be something to consider but not for Greinke.

Well he's listed at 6'0'', so two inches taller than Prince. I believe Mat Gamel is also listed at 6'0'' and we seemed ok with him at first. Good to hear Davis' arm isn't as bad as I thought it was. Perhaps Braun will eventually move to right? But my reasoning for bringing him up is because, along with Morris and Gamel, it seems like we have plenty of options for people who have the ability to hold down first base in the near future. So again, I just question the reasoning behind signing a 32 year old to a 3 or 4 year deal at $10-$15 million a year when you have other options. That money could be spent better elsewhere. For $10 million you could probably get two good to really good bullpen arms. Not the elite closer type but solid arms.

One guy I've always thought would be a good option at first base is Khris Davis. Obviously he's never played there yet but from what I understand he has a Moises Alou type arm in the outfield? He hits for a ton of power and while not "tall" he's not short either. With Ryan Braun entrenched in left field and his arm not good enough for right a move to first down the line may be a wise move.

I just don't tihnk Melvin should be going out of his way trying to trade a guy that has performed very well in the last 3 years and is still signed through next year. I agree with this, but I also don't think Melvin should go out of his way to hang onto Hart. In other words, he shouldn't be telling other GM's he isn't available and he should be listening to offers. The part I bolded is exactly why he should be listening to offers. Corey Hart, I don't believe, will make or break our 2013 season and I think with him looking for one final long term deal it'll take at least 3 years to get him to re-sign. If a team does think he is make or break for 2013 they may be willing to overpay. You don't trade Hart just to trade him. But you don't hang onto to him and/or extend him unless you believe he is a franchise player. At 32 years old (when his contract runs out) it's hard to envision him as a franchise player anymore.

I don't think it's "arbitration" anymore. I think there is a set contract they offer him that is based off the average of a certain number of top salaries. But the idea is the same. If the Brewers offer it and he accepts the contract is his. If he declines they get picks. If they don't offer it he is a free agent and no picks. I actually like the new rules as it seems like it will dramatically reduce the number of compensation picks awarded.

The longer the Pirates play well the more I wonder if they might be interested in one of our guys. With as bad as they have been for as long as they have been you'd have to think they'll make a real effort to do all they can to win the division. They seem to lack that "ace" type pitcher and could really use Greinke or Marcum. I just wonder how well they match up with us as a trade partner. Their top two prospects are pitchers (Cole and Taillon) and there next best is a center fielder (Marte). I doubt they'd part with Taillon or Cole and centerfield seems like the last position Milwaukee needs. They also look like they could use an upgrade offensively, especially corner outfield. Corey Hart would help them out. Anyone see Pittsburgh as a possible match? I see Marcum as the best fit for the as Greinke would cost too much and Hart....well Melvin just isn't going to trade Hart. ----- Continued from: viewtopic.php?p=799495#p799495 Original Lead: viewtopic.php?t=28549