MNBrew

It's not that Ortiz wasn't a fit up here. Ortiz' knees couldn't handle the turf enough to be a regular 1B and he also could never put it together enough here to become the full-time DH. It also got to the point where Ortiz was going to cost more in what he'd get in arbitration than his production alone would justify. Health issues may have factored in, too -- memory's a little fuzzy there. So they non-tendered him and the consensus was that he didn't give any indications his last couple years here that, all in all, made the non-tender decision look like a bad choice. NO ONE in the Twin Cities or probably most of baseball saw him turning into a potential HOF caliber slugger no matter where he landed. Anyway, the Twins have 5 starting OFs to play between the OF & DH. They've also been yearning for RH power for years. Fielder doesn't profile as the most logical fit for the Twins.

I've gotten to see Boof Bonser a whole lot more than I'd ever want to again over the past 2.5 years he's been on the Twins. You're right, some of his numbers aren't all bad (good K & BB rates, for instance). And some of his luck could've been better. BUT while some stats indicate he should've been better than he was... ...the fact is that most of the year he was downright horrible. The Twins waited an eternity to yank him from the rotation. And his ERA never improved a whole lot in the 'pen, either. You can cite bad luck all you want. Bonser also created his own bad luck way too much of the time, and in the end did deserve what his ERA was. Until the last month-plus of the year, Bonser's entry into the game, whether as a starter or reliever, signaled the end of the Twins' chances that day. He was pretty good his first half-year. The guy is capable. But for the last two years, basically he's been significantly worse than Jeff Suppan.

More succinct only because you pasted longer quotes. Short posts aren't usually my strength. You hit the nail on the head, TLB: When you've been successful and are then fired by a "wacko nut-job boss, 100%," it almost makes your success look even better AND still casts 99% of the suspicion deservingly on said wacko nut-job boss, 100%. You know, Melvin's recent comment on how sometimes a manager is better the 2nd time around because of lessons learned from the first time? Doesn't that seem all the more like he's laying the groundwork PR for Macha's hiring? Why is it Bob Brenly's got so much discussion-al carrying power for the Brewers job when it hasn't seemed like he's been a candidate for much of anything since the D-Backs fired him? Does that strike anyone else as odd?

Let's see, the Mets fired Johnson because he was too easygoing and replaced him with hothead Bobby Valentine, who didn't have the same success as Johnson, who's known as an egomaniac, and whom they also fired. The Reds fired Johnson because he didn't get along with Marge Schott. Marge was passionate about baseball but used to make her managers rub her dog's hair among other bizarre things -- generally known as an idiot of an owner. The fact that Johnson didn't get along with her speaks positively of Johnson. Didn't Marge fire Lou Piniella, too? The conflict of interest thing in Baltimore makes sense, but Angelos is still just an idiot of an over-meddling owner. I don't see any of these circumstances as a perpetually negative reflective on Johnson. I still think he's the most proven, successful manager available. Then again, it seems Melvin loves Macha and you can kinda see where this is going to end up.

Something about Macha appeals a lot to DM, but the negatives already cited carry significance. People used to be so up on him as a future manager, much like they were about Davey Lopes. Funny that you really don't hear either of their names in the managerial searches of the past couple years. Davey Johnson's managerial record is darn near impeccable. His Mets were a consistent winner. He turned around the Reds AND the Orioles and was so successful in Baltimore that Angelos' ego couldn't handle it, so he fired him after a 98-win season -- proving Angelos wrong is all the more of a plus for Johnson in my book. I'm not as clear what happened in his LA tenure, but the Dodgers weren't consistent winners around that time so I wouldn't see those two years as being a major blemish -- and they were still >.500 seasons. Tom Kelly would probably be good but has consistently turned down offers to manage again. I think he likes his present lifestyle too much. Hargrove would be a fairly neutral entity in this discussion, but his bailing out on the Mariners doesn't reflect the greatest on him (for that matter, nothing about the Mariners reflects well on anyone except Ichiro & Ibanez, who stayed above the fray, so maybe Hargrove gets points for knowing when to bail). Brenly? I'm still *meh* on him. I mainly just keep hoping against hope that Davey Johnson's hat is in the ring.

I'm with Logan. Don't deal your depth until someone absolutely forces the issue. They made a similar mistake years ago when they traded Vina and should've traded Belliard instead -- might've gotten a little more in return based on the promise Belliard showed at that time. The fun of hindsight! (For the record, I felt the same way when that trade was actually made). The starting SS I see us trying to trade -- and as a SS with a ton of versatility rather than as a super utility guy -- is Bill Hall. He wouldn't net us as much in return, but he's had his best overall numbers playing that position, which would seem to indicate a high comfort level at that position. I'd settle for a solid everyday reliever. To play the hypothetical game, it's hard to place a value on one commodity until there's a clearer sense of where exactly the holes are -- which is dependent on options, FA, etc.

Brenly makes me nervous. Kevin Kennedy built a better rep as a pitching coach than as a manager, imo.

Also reported here by Haudricourt on the JS website. Must've been the same conference call from which ESPN picked their storyline.

Moving to FL was raised before and I remember somewhere reading that it wasn't even a consideration. If such a move were to happen, announcing it now or even later would amount to be late in the 11th hour and would only seem justified if the entire ST facility were wiped out by a natural disaster or they needed a new home on some other emergency basis.

Attanasio did have Suppan over for dinner at his house, something that doesn't seem to be the norm. I'd call that meddling.I'd call it convenience. Melvin went to where Suppan lived - Los Angeles. So happens that Mark A. lives there, too. Rather than take him out to dinner, take him over to the owner's house. For the first time in, well, maybe the team's whole history, we have an owner that has the cajones to make a strong decision. Since we're so conditioned to passive owners, Mark A. must be a meddler and micromanager. On another note, the last time the Brewers hired an experienced manager was 1985, when George Bamberger was brought back to recapture this magic of his first tenure (oops), only the team was then in terrible shape. Since then we've hired Trebelhorn (rookie), Garner (rookie), Lefebvre (not a rookie but only the interim guy, already the batting coach), Lopes (rookie), Royster (rookie), Yost (rookie), and Sveum (interim only, rookie). I'm not sold that this is the best direction, but I don't disagree that it could be time to try a veteran.

Maybe Melvin's figuring that for as many players totally love Sveum, that means they just might be a little too comfortable and need to be rattled a little more so they don't fall into complacency with similar expectations. The experienced manager thing makes at least some sense if you consider that part of the problem with Yost was sticking with too many tendencies just for consistency's sake when sometimes change is what's needed (see: starting lineup fixtures Weeks, Hall, & Jenkins, just for starters). Perhaps something similar would/could/should be said about Dale Sveum when 90% of Brewers Nation knew starting Suppan in Game 4 was borderline suicidal for the Crew's playoff hopes. I'm also tending to think Melvin has someone in particular in mind. It's not just experience in general he's after, I don't think, but significant winning experience. Sveum and Yost didn't offer that. Many of the names generated so far don't offer that, either.

I honestly think Sveum could've done well. This move surprises me a lot. Obviously Melvin's looking for something more than the positives Sveum has going for him. Showalter's good but does wear out his welcome. Brenly? Meh. Macha? Some appeal but the stuff earlier in the thread from the time of his firing makes me leery. Valentine? Pretty good but has always struck me as exceedingly arrogant. I like the idea of Willie Randolph, but I've also made it a point NOT to pay to much about the Mets for years, so I don't have any reference points about his Mets tenure. Mike Hargrove doesn't seem awful, but.... The Davey Johnson idea makes a lot more sense than most of other names, even to the point of it possibly being downright brilliant. Then again, if Melvin goes with Macha, there would inevitably be very sound reasoning behind so I'd be okay with it. I tend to trust Melvin pretty well.

Catalanatto's name will probably keep coming up even after he's finally retired -- and a year later the Brewers can finally sign him, a la the other BF.net eternal favorite, Gabe Kapler.

I think it's easy to look at Joe Crede as an improvement over Hall because we don't see him everyday. My guess is that the equivalent White Sox fans to BF.net posters would look at Crede in a similar way as many of us look at Bill Hall. The potential is there. The likelihood of him reaching that level of performance consistently seems less and less as time goes by, and that's before factoring in significant time missed for injuries the past two years. At least Hall's been healthy. At least Crede's a natural 3B. Hall could play at an All-Star level next year. So could Crede. There seems to be good reason to suspect that neither actually will. I understand the logic for looking at Crede. I think the Brewers could do appreciably better -- not that I've thought through it enough to have suggestions yet.

I'm not passing judgement on the Joe Crede idea one way or another. But I do find myself wondering if this will now be the 3rd or the 4th consecutive offseason we keep hearing his name tossed around. His name always seems to be popping up in these discussions on this site.

Logan, you keep replying solely based on the OPS & SLG points. That's not the whole argument. - Pierre struck out nearly 120 times fewer than Cameron. That means the ball was in play. While some of those times may have been DPs, most weren't, which gave Pierre 120 more chances at productive outs -- move up a baserunner, rush the fielders to increase the chances of an error, etc. - Pierre's nearly 40 points higher BA stands to be better even though the OBP is comparable because runners can advance more than one base on a hit but not on a walk. The Brewers could've scored more runs if they'd just gotten more hits and had more productive outs. They failed in part because they didn't do those things, instead being more all-or-nothing. The ALL moments were worth it in and of themselves. But all the NOTHINGS eventually killed them. The Brewers eventually lost not because of their pitching but because of their hitting. It wasn't the HRs they did hit. It was everything else they couldn't do when they weren't hitting HRs. They need more players to do more of those other things in order to have a better overall balance in their lineup.

Interesting that Troy Glaus could've been had last winter after a down '07, and that Scott Rolen was apparently in Melvin's trade sights. Glaus had a strong year and Rolen battled injuries. Any chance the Crew can trade Hall for Rolen & some contract relief and hope to recapture lightning in a bottle for a one-year fix at 3B? That's assuming Hardy doesn't end up there. On the Dan Uggla idea, walks at a rate not unlike Fielder and therefore has a decent OBP. However, the guy has a K rate that would keep local windmills spinning strong all summer. Given that, I'm not sure he's a perfect solution to the Brewers' present woes.

Not necessarily. It's all in how you see it. Yeah, fewer HRs. But both Sveum & Braun said outright in the Game 4 postgame quotes that for the team to advance deeper into the playoffs, they needed to change the complexion of their offense and couldn't be so reliant on the HR. Cameron is one of the most guilty all-or-nothing hitters on the team, right up there with Hall & Weeks. Both Pierre & Cameron have their faults and their plusses. Pick your poison, so to speak. You can't change the overall complexion of the lineup without changing some of the players. The SLG doesn't have to be killer at every position. At some position they need to sacrifice a bit of power for a more well-rounded overall offensive game. Pierre has about $28M coming the next 3 years. Suppan has around $25M coming the next 2 years. Pierre's is better spread out, which would open a little more room over the next two years. And the net loss of Cameron & Suppan in return for Pierre leaves CF well-manned with another $10M -- besides the $10M of Sheets, the $10M of Gagne, & the $3.2M each from Turnbow & Capuano & possibly Counsell, too -- available for player acquisitions with 3B, #5 IF, upper-end starter, & the bullpen as the main needs to addressed.

I'm hardly crazy about Juan Pierre, but I just sent this to a friend tonight before I'd read this thread. What about... Suppan's contract is backloaded, so he's due something like $12+M the next 2 years (UGLY). Pierre's 2 years into a 5-yr., $45M contract (UGLY to be sure!). Cameron's option is a $10M one or a buyout that may be as much as $3M. Pierre (~$9M) + Cameron's buyout (~$3M) = Suppan (~$12+M) If the Dodgers are looking to move Pierre and replace a starting P or 2 (Lowe's a FA, anyway), maybe there's a match. The deal would need to meet a need of the Dodgers, whether that would mean the addition of Suppan or just the subtraction of Pierre. And the Brewers take care of one position (CF), do dump a heinously ugly contract (Suppan), do change the complexion of their offense (better BA, 2x as many SBs, & tons fewer Ks) but still are no better off OBP-wise unless Pierre "regresses" to his form of the first 5 years of his career. The alternative would be still having Cameron ($10M) AND Suppan ($12+M) both still on the '09 Brewers, which for all the reasons there are to be down on the Pierre idea for Pierre's negative merits, is nearly twice as expensive as the proposed trade and still doesn't improve any of the '08 Brewers' glaring needs (fewer Ks, better OBP, more base hits) or problems (Suppan's ugly pitching and ugly contract). . . . . So although I'm not totally sold on this as a great deal, theoretically it's at least improves on the status quo and still frees up the equivalent of Cameron's $10M salary for meeting another need.

Wasn't suggesting that, for goodness' sake! The point was clearly there. Lots of power with no one on base. Little run production with runners on. Where's the blue type? Branyan sure helped in June, no doubt about that. Not that the HRs are worthless, either. It's just very clearly there in the analysis that his power carried his OPS in the numbers cited in this threaad. He just didn't produce a whole lot when he wasn't hitting solo HRs.

Only two reactions: 1. Given the chances he had, Rivera easily should've graded out at an A, or at the very worst an A-. 14 RBIs in 50 or so ABs is a good ratio. It's not Rivera's fault Kendall's name was in the starting lineup 149 times. 2. At the time when Branyan had 12 HRs, he had only 20 RBIs, which did include a couple RBI singles, too. Granted, some of his HRs were pretty clutch and he gave the offense a good jolt. But the guy hardly did anything when anyone was on base. I think their grade for him wasn't far off.

I'll read Vic F's article but I want to state my first reactions: - Melvin is an excellent GM and Attanasio is a passionate owner who has stated repeatedly that he knows the importance of leaving the baseball decisions to the baseball people he's hired. - Attanasio knew this could be a 1-year window and knew the investment he'd already made (esp. CC, also Durham) but also saw that the 4th Yost September death spiral in 5 years wasn't coming close to ending. - Melvin was a Yost supporter but Melvin's steadfast support might have cost him his own job if he didn't pull the trigger. Sounds like Mark A. felt the firing needed to be done and Melvin couldn't totally disagree. Is Attanasio an owner with an actual personality who's not content to watch a massive investment die on the vine? Absolutely. Does that make him a Steinbrenner? Not in the least. As Brewers fans we're SO used to owners that don't let change happen and/or who don't open the purse strings. Those things raise the stakes, and with greater risk can come a higher cost for failure. Mark A. was simply trying to avert the total failure we'd all come to expect. If it were Yost's first September slump, that'd be one thing. The fact that it was Yost's 4th big-time late-season swoon in 5 years is a clear pattern and seems to reflect an upper limit on his leadership and managerial abilities. I get antsy when owners start stepping in. Yost was clearly going down with the ship he was in charge of. But I also don't blame Mark A. for pulling the plug on Yost to give the ship a better chance of not sinking in the first place. The fact that Mark A. has raised the bar of expectations and changed part of the old standard Brewers MO might actually prove to be a sign of better things to come. That said, there's a fine balance that needs to be kept, too, so the owner doesn't alienate those in whose decisions he needs to have faith.

Baldelli came back to play in only 28 games toward the end of the year after only appearing in 35 games the year before. No one's suggesting he'd beat out Hart or Braun, and Gross already had a pretty clearly defined role in TB. The question is if you consider him either for CF (with a solid Plan B ready to go) or a backup OF spot. I like ILDB's Kendall-type deal idea and hope maybe we'd catch lightning in a bottle or create a situation/role in which he could gradually regain his form.

Backwards logic, Nate82. We're starting to hear Fielder's name more in the trade rumors but that doesn't mean the Brewers are interested in moving him at all. Other teams' inquiries about players, such as the ones the Brewers were getting for the past several years about Braun, Hart, Hardy, Weeks, Fielder, Sheets, etc., were plentiful but didn't mean those guys were the least bit available. We're reading Lincecum's name all over speculative trade rumor threads but he may well win the Cy Young and I'm sure the Giants see him as a long-time staff ace, which means he's not going anywhere no matter how much other teams might justifiably covet him.

Just to say it up front, I don't think the key to the Brewers' future success is rooted in hiring more key players from past glory years. Unlike Yost & Sveum and many others, Molitor wasn't just a good player from a favorite era. He's a certified Hall of Famer. The fact that he's a fan favorite is extremely justified by his performance. That really seems like an unnecessarily snide remark. Molitor was fired along with Bob Melvin's whole staff after 2004. That's a housecleaning, in which any salient positives typically are ignored for a fresh start. Tom Kelly wanted Ron Gardenhire to manage the Twins when he retired. They didn't offer that position to Molly then. Where did you get that information? Molitor's an accomplished and respected coach. The reason he hasn't had an on-field role with the Twins or sought to work for any team outside of the Twin Cities is because he remarried a few years ago and has a young child. He spent most of his life away from his first wife Linda and their daughter Blair. The guy is deservedly coveted as a coach/manager/instructor but for now has chosen to place family first -- and you really can't blame him for that choice.