MNBrew

Good thread! Guys like Chris Saenz & Sid Roberson deserve to be on a list kinda like this, but maybe just not this one -- maybe guys who actually kinda had it going (didn't actually disappoint by their play) but injuries basically ended anything good. Along the way were plenty of "you've got to be kidding that the Brewers will give this guy a job" types -- another potential separate list -- like Kiki Diaz, Juan Castillo, Willie Lozado & Jack Lazorko, Ron Rightnowar, Brian Givens, Carlos Ponce (I don't care what they thought his potential was, I was always convinced he'd always be lousy), & George Canale . . . gotta be plenty of others out there like these guys! In all fairness, Dion James was showing plenty of promise 'til he badly separated his shoulder diving for a ball in CF. Can't remember the opponent or the year, but I remember watching the game. He finally did put it all back together (well enough, anyway), but not 'til after the Brewers finally gave up on him. Putting 2 & 2 together to make 4, as someone basically said on p. 1 of the thread, Sheffield flat-out gave up on the Brewers long before his constant selfish & self-glorifying immaturity forced the Brewers to finally get what they could for him. At the time, it actually seemed like a decent trade, esp. given that there was no way they could justify keeping him when he even started trashing Bud Selig to the media -- the only guy who absolutely stood behind him no matter what. Knowing what we tend to know these days, on average, about most prospects, likely would've changed what we got in return OR how we viewed the return we did get (Valentin = good power but an error machine (51 errors the year before the trade, I believe); Mieske = 2x straight MVP of his league in the minors; Bones = MLB-caliber pitcher, albeit one whose ceiling was really that of a #4 starter). (Side note: Sheffield's condemnations of Harry Dalton did indeed starting bringing to light a few flaws in the way the once-beloved GM had gone downhill in how he ran the team. Remember the whole mess about guys like Etchebarren & Haney basically being Dalton's "eyes & ears" in the clubhouse, and players not feeling like they could actually speak freely because they never knew "who" was actually listening, not unlike the reputation of the Communist governments at the time? Very scary!)

According to B-R, Cirillo played 2B for 27 games in his first 3 years (94-96). In 94 Vina played 12 games at 3B for the Mets. In 95 he played 2 games at 2B for the Brewers. He did not play 3B again in his career. Well, I must've watched every time he was playing SS & 3B because the memories of him playing the left side of the IF have stuck with me vividly all these years. Another side note: I remember watching Vina & my buddy getting his autograph when he was a Rule V guy w/ Seattle in spring training of 1993. So I liked it a couple years later when he became a Brewer -- and even better when he developed into a very good one.

I should've been more specific. My comparison was meant solely in regards to his hitting prowess. Cirillo came up known as a solid defender w/ a good arm but it took time in the bigs to become known as a top defensive 3B. Cirillo should've won at least one and maybe more Gold Gloves, but at the time he was constantly up against Scott Rolen, who like many Gold Glovers had his otherworldly offense apparently carry over to help boost his defensive renown.

I know when Hairston signed w/LA & that it was early. Melvin wouldn't make a 2-year deal for a reserve IF even though he's done it before, which defies logic -- and all the more so when no promising Brewers SS prospects likely will play above A-ball before late in the upcoming season. Sure, we don't know if we would've outbid the Dodgers. But I think that if Melvin had come aggressively after Hairston w/ a 2-year deal before FA opened, he just might've re-signed before the reserve middle IF market had a chance to develop such grossly bloated salaries. . . . . Or, as I said, if Melvin wanted to stay on the less expensive side, he still could've come aggressively after Nick Punto much earlier since he wasn't in the big-buck part of the middle IF rush in Nov/Dec. The whole problem is that now we're hoping dearly that Cesar Izturis isn't our best/only backup SS option, and my point is just that the present scenario could've been avoided had Melvin been more aggressive &/or proactive re: a backup SS. Hairston wouldn't have added any HR power of consequence to the bench, but he would've been a solid RH bat w/ a ton of (& positive) defensive versatility. I'm not a big fan of Brooks Conrad, perhaps in part because I'd still much rather see Taylor Green on the team. I'm too concerned that Conrad won't be much better than a switch-hitting version of Wes Helms at more defensive positions than our old #18 -- and that only gives Roenicke more reasons to use him more often, which only elevates my fears.

I see Green as having every bit the potential of Jeff Cirillo. I hope he can fulfill that potential. And Cirillo wasn't just handed an everyday starting IF job. I'd like to think, as YoungGeezy said just above, that if he's raking in AAA again, he'll get his chances and eventually earn his PT in Milwaukee. Roenicke knows the quality play & generally quality ABs Green gave the team last Aug/Sept & in Oct in the playoffs. . . . I'm not sure how, but I think Green will earn his keep in MIL before the season's over. Side note: The year before they both settled in at their "career" positions, does anyone else remember Cirillo getting plenty of PT at 2B while Vina was getting more regular PT at 3B, only to have them both settle in at their "more natural" & respective vice-versa positions the following year?

No, you're not the only one. Some folks are already making him out to be the 3B version so many believed Yuni B to be as a SS before he ever set foot on our diamond, which I believe, like Melvin, was something of an over-exaggeration on Yuni B., too. As long as he makes all the routine plays and the majority of the tougher ones, I'm not going to overanalyze or over-value Ramirez's glove. I liked Casey a lot in the field and thought some of his bad rap was overblown. But I still think Ramirez should be a good half-step or so at least above Casey defensively at 3B. I still have way too many glaring memories of Dale Sveum and -- ugh -- Jose Valentin butchering routine play after routine play to think some of these guys are as atrocious as the bashers are making them out to be. That said, there are many plays ruled as hits these days which, a couple decades ago & before, were consistently ruled as errors.

Three thoughts keep coming back to mind over spring training, especially in recent days, and re-reading this thread: 1. They must be wanting Green to play everyday in AAA because you really hear much more about the competition between Ishikawa & Conrad for a reserve IF spot. I like Green a lot and figured he'd done everything already to have a spot pretty well clinched. I at least thought Green was in the mix, and he's hitting just fine, too -- way better than Conrad -- but maybe they don't want to waste him getting 3-4 AB/week, half as a PH, over a few months at this stage of his still-promising career. . . . I'm also thinking they'd have him in mind for regular duty in case of injury to Weeks, Ramirez, or maybe even Gamel. Lord knows, I think it's a bad sign if Conrad or Ishikawa is getting major PT in the bigs unless somehow -- miraculously -- there's a major lightning-in-a-bottle thing going on. 2. Izturis' spring takes me back 3 months wishing big-time they'd just committed to Hairston for 2 years or made an aggressive push to sign Nick Punto for the middle IF reserve job. The Hairston thing especially boggles because they gave more than one 2-yr. deal to Counsell with far less offensive punch and defensive versatility than Hairston -- Melvin being the guilty GM each time, no less! . . . . I think any deal they might make for a reserve SS would be something Morgan-esque in scope & notoriety: nothing glaring but full of reasonable promise to pan out looking rather shrewd & savvy. 3. It seems pretty apparent, short of injury or other transactions, that the bullpen will be these 7: Axford, K-Rod, Veras, Loe, Estrada, Parra, Dillard. McClendon's shown generally well but having options remaining probably puts him in AAA 'til someone "above" him falters badly enough or gets hurt. Kintzler & Braddock can't get onto or stay on the field at this point, so their AAA tickets are pretty clearly already punched.

If Aoki proves to be the real deal, then we have the blessing of nice depth and perhaps also some assets that could be traded to fill another need.

Having just read Sickels' piece, I'm encouraged that he's generally complimentary & has very positive things to say about everyone at least through #10 (Peralta, Thornburg, Jungmann, Bradley, Green, Lopez, Gennett, Scarpetta, Fiers, Schafer) if not #12 (Manzanillo, Gindl). No guarantees, of course, and he notes the lack of Grade A guys and the relative wealth of Grade C types. But still, while the cupboard's not exceedingly full, it's still a long way from being bare.

Well the bar was set pretty low last year with McGehee. I think a lot of the Green hype was him bing able to play 2B but I don't think he is really an option there anymore. Did Green do something to prove to anyone he can't play 2B? If so, I surely don't remember it. The only way I see him not being much of an option at 2B is if Weeks all of a sudden attains a Prince-like level of durability and the type of production that never benefits from a day off. . . . . I still think he's much more of a 3B than a 2B, but that's not the point that was brought up. I'd also think Green would take the opportunity for everyday PT wherever it might come defensively.

The Oswalt idea is a darkhorse type at best, but I'd still love to see him end up a Brewer. Increasing the overall talent quotient cannot be a negative, plus it creates much greater rotation depth and presumably would bump Narveson to the 'pen 'til there's an injury, which seems more likely this year given the relative lack of them in the rotation last year. . . . Part of me also wouldn't be surprised if an Oswalt deal occurs as half of a 2-part deal that frees enough salary elsewhere. (Okay, just slap me because I'm sure I'm way too heavy on the dreaming here. But it's fun to think about nonetheless.) He's no power hitter, but the Aoki move I think takes the place of any potential Kotsay/Edmonds/Kapler NRI type of addition for the OF. Coffey or someone like him for the 'pen wouldn't be bad, but everyone's after bullpen help.

More talent is more talent, and you can never have enough pitching. I don't see this as likely for our Brewers, but I still think Narveson would make yet one more proven arm for the 'pen & yet greater rotation depth (w/ Estrada, Fiers, Peralta, etc.) beyond the Top 5.

I do think it's a bit amusing how, 11.5 years later, Scutaro, the last active "remnant" of the original Richie Sexson trade, continues to live to play yet another year. Brewers got: Richie Sexson, Kane Davis, Paul Rigdon, & Marco Scutaro Indians got: Jason Bere, Bob Wickman, & Steve Woodard

It doesn't seem like a rational signing, but I like the idea of it nonetheless. He'd be an improvement on Narveson, albeit much more expensive, assuming he's healthy. . . . Then again, if this came true, it would put Narveson -- a lefty -- into the 'pen, which some people seem to be concerned about.

I'll bring up one other thought, though I'm still not sure if I think this is a good idea or not: Old ball-glove logo in current colors as the logo for the caps to go with the gold jerseys. Gold jerseys could be a Friday or Sunday thing -- something where they'd be worn enough but still kept squarely "in their place" as an alternate uniform -- and with the old logo design, they could take the place of the retro unis entirely. After all, we had the retro thing going while Brady Clark was still a Brewer. That's long enough ago. Retire those babies while many are still inclined to view them positively rather than wait too long to where the look has grown completely tired. (Besides, there was a stretch there where the Brewers' record whilst wearing the retro duds wasn't very good, which took much of the shine off 'em for me. I don't recall how long that lasted, though I'm sure someone has records of that to be looked up somewhere.)

Yes. Yes. Yes. I like the ball-glove logo. No, I love it. But there's greater value in the past remaining in the past than forcing the past back into the present. While the Brewers led the charge the retro-throwback thing, it's become "normal" enough that it's lost enough novelty, especially that the "current" team has made as many playoff appearances in the current look ('08, '11) as the "golden era" teams did in the "classic" look ('81, '82).

Hart WAS a natural 1B and played that position 'til the Brewers, because of Prince, tried moving him to 3B before ultimately finding a better home in RF during his minor league ascent.

I'll agree on the stupid mandated caps -- camouflage &/or the stars/stripes -- yuck!!!!

When Gallardo "doesn't have it" in a game, he's downright Suppan-esque, too. Even ace pitchers have crappy games every once in a while -- just fairly rarely. Saying Wolf is Suppan 2.0 ignores the sum of his work the past two seasons and perhaps amounts to fixating only on his May/June 2010. Thing is, Wolf isn't glitzy and wouldn't seem to garner you much in a trade. But with how salaries have gone the past 5 or more years, he's the type of veteran you still have to pay that kind of jing in order to a) get him to come to your team (if you're not one of the highest-profile spenders or perennial contenders), and b) give you the kind of production we've gotten from him.

I think anyone that's ever gone to a Miller Park game has a story along the same lines. We need a red-ish jersey for stadium sauce. The Brewers would claim it's for the "brick" that's still considered an official team color for some ridiculous reason (because the stitches in the baseball on the logo, actually, and "brick" because it sorta ties into the exterior of the stadium -- DUMB!!!!). I hope we never see that happen (red jerseys, not spilled Secret Stadium Sauce, that is). The gold jerseys were cool and I wouldn't mind seeing them again.

Wolf was the #2 FA SP two winters ago and Melvin, it turns out, was very smart to go after him rather than the #1 FA SP, John Lackey, first in terms of the size of contract, and then also in the professionalism of Wolf vs. the headaches Lackey's given Boston. Say what you will about Wolf, but he's one FA acquisition by Melvin that's proven pretty darn good in hindsight.

My point was that Yuni's approach & lousy success (for a while) at the plate is what drove people through the roof. My point was that that would be the case IF Gonzalez hits like *that* Yuni rather than the playoffs Yuni.

Oswalt has missed plenty of time the past few years. Wolf hasn't. I don't see $2M & a so-so prospect being enough to offset the seemingly inevitable injury time.

RockCo, you & I often see things differently, but not this time! I think his offensive approach is going to drive people through the roof just as Yuni's did and to many, at that point, his defense will have to be Ozzie Smith-like to have even a slight chance of offsetting the justified frustration with his offense. In spite of his defensive reputation, if he starts blowing a few plays in the field, he'll "elevate" himself to Yuni B status 'round here in a hurry.

Well, any odds of Fielder returning may not be larger than microscopic in all reality, but there are a few little things that could be making it seem like only a ridiculous longshot instead of a sheer impossibility.