TheCrew07

Helena rained out, we'll have to wait another day for Heckathorn's debut.

Suppan working his unmagic for WI, Hardy with a HR for Nashville.

Since when were Turnbow, Clark, Helms, and Kolb top prospects? Those guys weren't impact players and those are the players we've been arguing to lock up going forward, and a player like Fielder that should have been offered immediately after his rookie season. No we don't know if Fielder would have taken the offer, but given his tax troubles and the fact the he was 5 years from FA he might have jumped at the idea then. Once players start going through arbitration they have very little incentive to sign a deal. I've been very consistent in that I've never had much use for Billy Hall and I've posted such under both user names I've used, it didn't matter if the debate was Hall vs Hardy or Hall vs Weeks... Hall was the player I wanted to move because I've never liked his game and I've always felt he was flash over substance going all they way back to my posts in 2004. So while DM's heart was in the right place, I didn't champion the signing at the time because Hall is just not the type of player I would want to build around. Hall is a great athlete playing baseball, not a baseball player who happens to be a great athlete. Once again I say the issue isn't how to build an average rotation any more, DM did a great job turning around the franchise. The question now is how do we get to the next level? If he was building for a playoff appearance only, then he nailed it, but if he's been building for a championship appearance then he's missed his mark by a wide margin. I firmly believe that playoff baseball is about pitching and defense because most teams that make it to the post season have an upper tier offense. He acquired 2 SP since 2003 with significant talent, JDLR in 2003, and Sabathia who was only a rental last season. That's it.. I remember being excited that we picked up a #1 draft pick when we acquired Jackson in the Overbay trade. My enthusiasm lasted about a week, then I started looking closely at his numbers and his scouting reports and to this day my thought is, "that's it?". I was still alright with the deal because I was happy just to have a competitive rotation, but when when I started looking past just being competitive my opinion of the deal has become very negative as my attitude towards pitching has changed. X nailed it... Melvin grabs hard throwers off the scrap heap for relief, but he mostly trades for soft tossing control pitchers for the rotation... V

Paciorek finished the game for the H-Crew, and pitched better than Miller and Morales, 1H, 0R, 0BB, 2K. He's never hit much... just saying..

I'm not sure I understand why you are separating out those 2 ideas. There is risk in any trade and any time a team hands a job over to a prospect, we just never know exactly what we're going to get. Will he hit right away? Will he struggle for a month? A year? 2 years? Will he ever hit? On the hand there was also significant risk in not making a move... it was clear the organization wasn't going to spend money on him with Escobar waiting, so what was the best possible return DM was going to get for Hardy? 2 years worth of production + 2 draft picks or would a pitcher(s) + Escobar have been the best return? I made my case as many different ways as I could logically think of trying to explain it. Of course we don't know who was offered, if anyone was offered, but DM's trade history (going all the way back to his time in Texas) gives us enough track record to suggest that if he was looking, he was probably looking for proven MLB pitching. There's certainly great risk in trading for pitching prospects and of course drafting pitchers given their injury frequency, so I understand why DM tends to pick up "sure things" when it comes to pitching. However, if an organization doesn't have any pitching talent at some point they have to address the issue or we end exactly up where we are today. It irks the hell out of me that everyone in the organization keeps pointing to Jones and Rogers... we only had a hand full of high ceiling pitchers in the entire organization for goodness sake, of course some are going to get hurt or flame out. Look at the system today... we have high ceiling arms from A+ all the way down through the AZL Brewers. The issue is/was clearly quantity of projectable arms, not the injury rate... I'd rather they just admit the mistake and move on instead of pointing at injuries to 2 pitchers as the reason for our pitcher issues. Like it's some great surprise that a young pitcher got hurt? Rogers hadn't pitched in 2 full seasons, Braddock hadn't made it through a complete season, Jones has been injured and rehabbing for ever... DM has had years to fix the problem and nothing has gotten done, if Parra wouldn't have made it back we'd be even worse off than we already are. I'm not sure why this keeps getting spun like it should have been addressed this last off season, is it just because it's obvious now? Because honestly this situation should have been addressed years ago. This situation was entirely predictable, looking back I wasn't concerned enough and I didn't really start beating the drum until last season when we had some depth we could move. I've liked the idea of a rotation of 5 #2 type pitchers, or 3 #2s and a couple of #3s for a very long time. I've been of the opinion that young #2 pitchers were the best value in baseball. I've never been into acquiring an "Ace" or building around an ace, I've wanted to build around a core of young quality pitching. The problem of course is that if DM would have traded any of the young players the standard, "Same ole Brewers, get a good young player and trade him" comments would have started. Every time someone suggests moving one of those players on this site those type of posts pop up, I can only imagine what the outcry would have been on local radio and around town in the Milwaukee area if one of our current young position players would have been traded. It wouldn't have been a PR savvy move, but it would have been baseball savvy. I think too many people around here want everything both ways, they want to DM to acquire pitching, but they don't want to give up anything of value to get it. Unfortunately even bad GMs aren't that bad, it's not realistic to expect to hold onto every young player and yet acquire meaningful pieces where we are short. Hopefully someday we have too much pitching and can move pitching for hitting, it seems to be much easier to swing deals in that direction.

Isn't sort of funny that so many spelled LaPorta "Laporta" and now so many spell Lucroy "LuCroy"? Or is it only amusing to me and my simple mind? I hope you take my post the way it's intended Fondy, I mean no disrespect as you certainly are not the only one doing it. Dang, Jones pitched better than his naked box score line would suggest when I looked at the game log. Rogers ERA is reaching ridiculous levels for any MiLB pitcher. I'm disappointed in Luetge, I really thought he'd have a good year before being tested in AA next season (not a certainty now, but coming into the season that was my thinking) Speaking of disappointments, I know I was hard on Seidel last season, but dang man. I probably pull too hard for him being a WI kid which has led to some unfair expectations, but he's looking more like a reliever with each passing year, if he makes it at all. I'm not sure I buy the whole "slipping while jogging on the ice" line either so that bothers me some as well. WI wins again... we have a streak... positive in nature, and they've won 3 of 4. Krestalude gets rocked a little bit.

I'm not going to get into subjective analysis about individual prospects and ceiling vs production it's a waste of time to debate it. RAA... well if you think Farris is a better player than Gamel or Escobar... have at it. Brownstein will be a utility guy just like Farris, except that he's already played CF, LF, RF, 2B, SS, and 3B this season, and played them all very well, learning them on the fly in game situations. Farris has been limited to 2B, he's played 13 games at other positions in his entire career, Brownstein hasn't played more than 14 games at any one position all season. Stealing bases will mean something when the Brewers actually start stealing bases again, what good is a skill that won't be utilized? He doesn't have exceptional speed, he's just good on the bases, and I don't see him maintaining his productivity on the base paths as he moves up. If he even steals 30 bases at MLB in a season I'll happily eat crow. Farris is a sub .700 OPS contact hitter in an organization filled with infielders that have greater potential at the plate. The guy you singled out in Brownstein has walked 33 times in 45 games, Farris has 26 BBs in 105 games, 2 more than he had in WV last season in the exact same number of games... who's numbers will translate better? The players he's similar to play a tougher defensive position or already have more positional versatility than he does. Farris is fantastic depth, similar to a Gillespie in that regard. People will see his gaudy SB totals, just like they saw Gillespie's gaudy BB totals and make arguments for him being in the organization's long term plans. I don't see either player as a starter, so I'll rate players with greater versatility and greater upside ahead of both of them.

I've never thought highly of Dykstra, he's just toolsy, so there's upside there yet... for a while. It's not that I like Dykstra, it's that I like him more than Farris... as the list was in no particular order looking at my list he'd probably be 1 or 2 spots in Farris, it's not like I think Dykstra is a mid teen player and Farris is a mid 30s. I intentionally left off Braddock as I will refuse to include him on any of my prospect lists until he proves he can stay healthy as I previously posted. It's not worth the heartache getting excited about him only to have him land on the DL every season. Yes this is also a reflection of my confidence in the medical staff. However that's a discussion for a different thread.

You won't have to wait for him because base running has nothing to do with being a top prospect. He's been leading the FSL in stolen bases most of the season, that's been common knowledge around here, this is not a new revelation. He'll still need to hit to get on base, he's a contact hitter who's OPS has declined every season of professional baseball. Darren Ford might have been the fastest player in all of professional baseball, he stole over 60 bases 3 straight seasons, he's still in A+ for the Giants. As I stated earlier Farris' OPS has declined every season, now it should have in BC, I won't hold that against him, but he dropped 81 points going from Helena to WV. College hitters should dominate the Pioneer League so success in Helena isn't very telling. I could easily rattle off 15 position players I like more than Farris, and 15 pitchers as well. In no particular order I would rate these players in front of Farris... Gamel Escobar Salome Cain Lucroy Green Gindl Schafer Lawrie Dennis Prince Dykstra Brownstein Garfield Richardson Cody Butler Periard Wooten Fiers Anundsen Rivas Rogers Bowman Aguilar Scarpetta Peralta Odorizzi Bucci Rosario Lasker Heckathorn Arnett Howell edit. Realized I forgot Mark Rogers... I'm sure there are 1 or 2 other guys I would have rated higher than Farris, the point is he'd be like 35th on my list.

When did he get a new title? Wasn't he officially the roving catching instructor previously? At any rate, what an excellent interview, I found the part where the he was talking about Angel getting the blame when a pitcher does poorly but the pitcher getting all the credit when they pitch curious. It really isn't that one sided is it? I guess I've never considered it, I give the pitcher the credit either way. Lucroy is wrapping up the season well. Rivas! Odorizzi! Since July 1st, Peralta has issued 21 BBs in 28.2IP... I hope he's running out of gas and it's not something else. Jeffers with a .1IP save that seems completely unnecessary looking at the game log. It's nice to see WI in the win column.

Fielder was up and down, didn't spend a full season in AAA. Parra didn't spend a full season in AAA, nor have Gamel and Escobar this season. Hardy skipped AAA entirely. The only Brewer player who spent significant time in AAA was Hart, and I still think the team going with Mench over him was garbage in year 2.

Duran the best defensive 3B? Hmm, maybe he was just "off" when I saw him play.

I missed the presser as I was on the football field, the gist I get from reading this thread is that they called up Escobar to platoon? What kind of garbage is that? I agree with those that they say this is Gamel all over again, except that Gamel never got his shot to platoon. It makes no sense to call up top prospects and put them on the bench. I hope I'm just reading too much into what was said but if I read this thread correctly I'm done with Macha, I'm sorry but he has no business managing a team that's going to have a yearly influx of young talent for the foreseeable future. I'll throw a name out there I've always liked, Davey Johnson. I know people were critical of his moves in the WBC, but that might the be the single most crappy job in baseball, because every team wants to have a say about their specific players, he's trying to get everyone work like it's spring training, so he ends up managing to please instead of to win.

I got that. If he's the opening day SS in 2010, or 2011, 2 extra weeks of service time either way doesn't cost us a full season service, it doesn't even impact super 2 status. The Escobar side of this debate is way off the mark, he was coming up on Sept 1 regardless, 2 weeks is an insignificant amount of time.

MLEs.... hollow, empty, meaningless argument. He was coming up in 2 weeks anyway, Hardy had no long term future. A deal was never discussed from either camp, Hardy should have been moved last off season when he value was at it's peak, and I'll believe that to my grave. What do Escobar MLEs have to do with next season? What does an arbitrary average reduction in AAA stats mean for this season? Andrus isn't hitting that bad and Escobar was considered superior with the bat. None one is saying he's going to hit to an .800 OPS, but I think Andrus' .685 for the rest of this season isn't all that far off for Escobar's line for the rest of the season, and he'll easily hit above .700 next season if he's the opening day SS. My primary concern here is the pitching and will remain so, swapping Escobar for Hardy in the short term or the long term is immaterial, it was inevitable. It makes no difference to me when it's done now that Melvin missed Hardy's peak value on the trade market, and I'm a huge Hardy supporter and always have been. I find it odd that I'm continually defending Escobar when he's not even one of my guys.

I don't see any reason why Escobar couldn't approach 2.5-3 WAR next season, I'd take that. This move doesn't really effect his service time in any meaningful way, where's the downside as far as Escobar is concerned? He was probably coming up again in 2 weeks anyway, what's 2 weeks? My point is your use of the word "hit', he's clearly talented enough to hit MLB pitching today. I agree that he doesn't walk as much as I'd like or hit for enough power to be elite, but claiming he doesn't hit is disingenuous, it's a distortion of the truth. He's not Tulo, but he's not Everett either, his physical gifts far exceed Everett.

My friend how does Escobar not know how to hit? He's not hitting for an .800 OPS... but he's not going to be capable of that at the MLB level this season. I don't think it's fair to continually twist his results in this manner, I have a hard time getting onboard with this notion that 15+ HR power is necessary to be called up. What if player like Escobar doesn't reach that point till his 27 year peak season? Do you keep him in the minors until then?

I'm intrigued by Bosio, he seemed to really connect with Parra via the audio interviews. When Manny would start messing around Bosio was out of the dugout in a hurry calming him down and telling him what to throw on the next pitch to get out of the inning. He was working quite a bit with Salome on his game calling as well so he's willing to attack pitching from all angles. The timing of this is garbage though. Has Castro really done a worse job with the pitchers than Macha has done managing them? Is there a single solid reason why Yo was leading the league in pitches per start as recently as a couple of weeks ago given his recent past? (I haven't checked in a while) I realize I'm in new territory here actually piling on a manager as I typically ride the other side of the fence, but Macha has been just as questionable as any of his coaches and his players this season.

I'm not sure Inman is a very good example to make a case on, this was his third time through AA, got bumped to AAA and stunk, then sent back down. The competition is a little bit better in AAA, but I think it depends on the perspective you choose to look at it from. Pitching wise you're working against mostly veteran players with some MLB experience, those guys are going to challenge you on every single pitch, that trend starts at AA, and continues as they move up. From a position standpoint they aren't really facing more talented pitchers, they are just facing a different style of pitcher. Starting pitchers like Gulin, Cody, DeFilice, etc who don't throw exceedingly hard but understand how to work both sides of the plate and mix their pitches well are going to be in AAA, as are hard throwers like Sarfate or Pena who are trying to harness their stuff will be there pitching out of the pen. Many players and coaches have mentioned that AA pitchers probably throw harder, but AAA pitchers will pitch better (a couple out of the Brewer organization this year if the various audio interviews linked). AAA is a good stepping stone, but a player really has to flop at AAA to never get a chance in MLB if they are a legit prospect. If a player succeeds at AA, they are going to see MLB time at some point, even if it's just a cup of coffee.

Something in his back... a disc injury if I recall? Herniated Disc? Fused Disc? Normally I'm on top of injuries as they are my pet peeve but I'm fuzzy on this and ready to pass out so I don't feel like going back to look it up. Sorry for offering half information..

Wow, Fiers has an outside chance of pitching in the big leagues next season, he's certainly earned his promotions, his 3 shutout innings the other day for WI obviously made an impression to be bumped again so soon.

I campaigned real hard for a Lasker appearance last season and was very disappointed by the news of his injury. I'm very excited for him, I wanted 2 of Odorizzi, Lintz, and Lasker to work out as they were all similar pitchers/athletes on draft day, I didn't really care which but I admit being partial to Lasker based solely on the awesomeness that is his name. I've been "out" since the rules meeting so forgive me but Lasker has earned...

Poor Max Walla... 133 Abs, 60 strike outs.

Thanks, I just got home and was looking to find out who was doing what but Steve just updated the score.