RockCoCougars

I was thinking a Franklin Stubbs signing was in the works.I'd prefer Sean Berry. He would be a great mentor for Kevin Barker.

I have a feeling that Melvin will outdo his Claudio Vargas acquisition a few years back by stunning the baseball world and grabbing Jamey Carroll. Melvin has never been one to make the huge deadline deal.

I'm pretty busy looking up stats to defend my Jamey Carroll argument, but since you asked... http://en.wikipedia.org/w...TV_Unplugged_in_New_York "MTV Unplugged in New York was the first Nirvana album released in the wake of the April 1994 suicide of singer/guitarist Kurt Cobain." "MTV Unplugged in New York was released on November 1, 1994. The album debuted at number one on the Billboard charts, selling 310,500 copies in its first week, giving the band its strongest first week sales." [/sup]

I'm almost positive that the album was posthumously released. Not sure when the show first aired on MTV, he may have been alive at that point.

You made a wise decision. Never take a 'blown engine' diagnosis as the gospel, especially on a Jeep- those engines usually run forever. I'd always be suspicious if someone gave me such a dire diagnosis for my vehicle, and then wanted to buy it from me. You were wise to drag that thing somewhere else.

Yeah, I think it's got to be Carroll. There have almost been more rumors linking Melvin to this guy than there were in the days before the CC trade was made. Have to think where there is smoke there is fire.

Yeah I don't really get the Cobain Bigger in death reference. Maybe it has to do with the time I grew up but as I remember it smells like teen spirit has been the biggest rock and roll hit of my lifetime; nirvana completely changed the face of mainstream rock music at the time, and they were selling millions and millions of records with Nevermind and in utero. All of this happened before Cobain died. I've argued this with people before. I was actually still listening to new music back then, so these are my recollections. Yes, Nirvana was huge after Nevermind. They were all over the place, and you can't argue that they were one of the fathers of the grunge alternative scene. That said, I don't think that In Utero was as 'big'- certainly not with the masses, it was released right before the 'modern rock' format really took hold. In the meantime, the mainstream popularity of 'alternative' groups like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Smashing Pumpkins, hell- even Counting Crows had eclipsed that of Nirvana. Then Cobain dies, MTV releases Unplugged in New York within a year, and Cobain/Nirvana are bigger even then they were at their commercial peak in 92-ish. It was almost impossible to turn on the radio or walk into a bar during a one-two year period from late 94 to 96 without hearing something off that album.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with a lot of what you said, including the fact that Yuni's free-swinging approach is to his detriment. However, I believe that if you had a lineup full of decent OBP/ low power guys, you would not score many runs. In many instances, it would take 3 guys reaching base to score a run. Obviously plate discipline is a good thing in that ideally you could work the count to the point where you get a fastball to drive- or draw a walk. That said, do guys like Counsell/Carroll really drive the ball consistently? We are talking about guys who would probably hit 7-8 for the Brewers. Is a walk as valuable when you have a pitcher lurking with a bat in his hands? Another interesting thing that I was able to find is that over Counsell's career in non-intentional walks, 58% of them have been of the 4 or 5 pitch variety. That is much higher than even I thought it would be. Is there really a skill in drawing a four or five pitch walk, or does luck play a role? I highly doubt that guys are pitching around Counsell- maybe a little back in the day when he was hitting 8th. Taking pitches until you get a strike would pretty much do the trick.

I disagree. My point is that with a hitter who poses an offensive threat, especially with home run power- walks are due in large part to the hitter's skill set. They are getting pitched more carefully. Guys like Counsell walk because they lack aggressiveness at the plate. They walk when this passiveness combines with a pitcher's lack of control (and I'll grant the ability to foul a ball or two off once in a while). Even pitchers walk once every 30 or so plate appearances, and they don't have the foul off ability or street cred with the umpires. I wish that I could see a chart with the pitch count of Counsell walks. I bet it's somewhere in the 6 or 7 range.

Those guys have actually hit double digit homers over the past few years. I'm assuming that guys pitch them more carefully. Do you guys honestly think that pitchers aren't trying to attack the zone with a Counsell or Carroll at bat? If you walk Andrew McCutcheon, not the end of the world. You walk Craig Counsell, you are swearing to yourself.

You can't be serious here. Josh Wilson in his major league career has shown very little power and an aversion to taking walks fairly close to Betancourt's impatience. The reason though that Counsell has managed to always walk at a much higher rate than Wilson, even though both have had little to no power is obvious and it's not the pitcher, Counsell almost always has only swung at strikes, while Wilson will swing at way more pitches out of the strike zone than Counsell will. It should be obvious to you when watching Counsell at the plate since he's been here, he has an incredible eye at the plate. Even if a pitch is just barely out of the strike zone, he smartly won't swing at it, but free swingers like Wilson and Betancourt will. It's precisely why they make so many outs. I'm absolutely serious. In their careers, Counsell has swung at 37.8% of pitches and Carroll has swung at 38.0%. Are you saying that these guys have only had this percentage of strikes thrown to them? In MLB, over 60 percent of pitches are strikes, so obviously these two are watching a ton of strikes per year. League average swing rates are in the mid 40 percent range, so these guys generally swing at 15-20% fewer pitches than average. You may say that this is 'discipline', I say that it's passiveness. Obviously a guy like Yuni will walk much less with his free swinging ways (career swing rate 51.6%), and that's a bad thing. I would make the argument that passiveness is almost just as bad. The only case that I really like passiveness at the plate is late in the game tied / down by a few or less or when you are trying to run the pitch count of an elite pitcher up.

I said simply comparing the PLAYERS, Beltran is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Corey Hart. I understand Hart's contract, I understand Beltran's. No one's disputing that, whatsoever. I got you, Beltran has been better than Hart this year, but this is the trade forum. I'd definitely pull the trigger in fantasy baseball, but I'd be irate if the Brewers did this. As we stand right now, Ryan Vogelsong has pitched better than Greinke in 2011. Would I swap them even up? Absolutely not.

He's been better this season in a contract year, but he's old and has been injured a ton the past few years. I certainly would rather have Hart for the next two seasons at what he is signed for than Beltran. For this season, Beltran will make about as much from this point forward as Hart will the entire year. Beltran is aging and overpaid, and I don't think that it's a stretch to project Hart putting up better numbers for the rest of this season, 2012 and 2013. We aren't even factoring in the haul the Mets want in return for him. I would want no part in signing Beltran after this season either.But talking about the players in general, contracts and future contracts aside, Beltran is a better baseball player than Corey Hart. As we stand right now for the 2011 season, yes. A year from now after he's gotten paid? Questionable. He's no spring chicken, and he's been injured/pedestrian the past few years- obviously, he's playing for a contract right now. Simply put Hart locked in for next 2 seasons >>>>>>> 2 month Beltran rental

I assume all things really comes down to one being a rental, because Beltran's so clearly a superior player to Hart.He's been better this season in a contract year, but he's old and has been injured a ton the past few years. I certainly would rather have Hart for the next two seasons at what he is signed for than Beltran. For this season, Beltran will make about as much from this point forward as Hart will the entire year. Beltran is aging and overpaid, and I don't think that it's a stretch to project Hart putting up better numbers for the rest of this season, 2012 and 2013. We aren't even factoring in the haul the Mets want in return for him. I would want no part in signing Beltran after this season either.

It's obviously a function of the pitcher AND batter. This was settled about two decades ago. I agree. Obviously, some guys are 'proficient' at walking because they are pitched carefully or simply pitched around. Killebrew, Frank Thomas, Bonds, Prince, etc. On the other hand, you have these non power guys who tend to draw walks at a slightly than higher than average clip: Counsell, Carroll, etc. I would put the first group mostly on the hitter's ability, while I would put the second mostly on the pitcher's lack of control. the fact that they're low in OBP AND Runs scored would seem to support the argument that OBP has a direct correlation with ones ability to score runs, wouldn't it? Well, they are 8th in walks. Unfortunately they are last in homers. You haven't seen guys up there who foul off 3-4 pitches before earning a walk? You haven't seen guys who consistently have high walk rates? Are they just luckier or what? I can't find the stats on this, but I'd be willing to bet a good sum that guys like Counsell and Carroll draw more 4, 5 or 6 pitch walks than they do >6 pitches. Simply put, if you are going up there looking to walk, you won't swing as much. By design, you will walk more. I would guess that these low power/higher than average walk guys have a much lower swing percentage than average, as Counsell and Carroll do. Does this approach result in more walks? Of course, but in my view this passiveness is about as detrimental as Yuni's free swinging ways are.

It's a nice thought- but is it me or have the Brewers basically been linked with every guy out there that's on the block?

I'd prefer my 7th and 8th hitters to limit the amounts of outs they make so my better hitters can get more ABs. It is also nice when your worst hitters are still able to work the count so that starting pitchers have to waste pitches on them and the team can more often face relievers. Am I suddenly back in the 80's? I'm not getting into the whole walk rate argument again. I will say that no one can draw a walk unless the pitcher gives it to you. I have no argument with the fact that Carroll will walk more than a free swinger like Yuni, but in the end, the pitcher still needs to throw at least 3 strikes. I don't understand why when a pitcher has a high walk rate, it's on them, but when a guy like Counsell has a decent OBP, somehow he is adept at getting on base. How has that worked for him lately? How is Beane doing with his high OBP players like DeJesus and Crisp in Oakland? 13th in the A.L in runs and 12 in OBP. But this is because the rest of the league has caught on and these guys are no longer 'undervalued', right? I'm with Bombers on the fact that OBP is overrated toward the bottom of the lineup. Especially in the NL. An 8 spot hitter in the N.L. should have a high OBP. There will be situations where they are pitched around, if not intentionally walked for the pitcher. There will also be situations where they get good pitches to hit simply because there are two outs and it's nice to have the pitcher leading off an inning. I'd rather have some guys with pop toward the bottom of the lineup than someone who will take the walk to let the pitcher kill the rally.

Obviously, he's better than Narveson, but is he $4 million plus prospects better for 10 starts? I say no. Those assets should be used for something beside another starting pitcher.

I'm not saying he would be horrible as a backup. He'd be a major upgrade over Counsell. That said, I don't want Melvin selling me that he's any sort of solution at short. If he was a lefty hitter and could be platooned, I might be on board, but he's not. I will be tremendously disappointed if they make a trade with the Dodgers and get Carroll when Furcal is available. There is lots to like about Furcal- switch hitter, tons of postseason experience, generally a solid fielder, etc. Yes, he's been bad this season due to the wrist thing, but last year he hit .300 and was an All Star, it's not like he's been circling the drain for a few years or something. Let's just say if the Brewers trade for Carroll, I'll have to replace my picture....

Pena makes a little sense. He seems to be on the Russell Branyan career path. The only thing that I'd like was if he was a lefty. I think that it would be nice to have a lefty with some pop off the bench, if for no other reason than to burn up the opponent's lefty reliever(s).

I'll pass on paying $4 million for 10 starts from Kuroda. Let Detroit have him. I don't think he's that much better than Narveson. The money could be used better elsewhere.

All things considered, I'd prefer Hart over Beltran and it's not even close.

Carroll is on pace to challenge the record for fewest RBI from a batting title contender. That is historically bad anyway you slice it.

I think the Mets are going to be stuck with Beltran on August 1st unless they are willing to take a lot less. I wouldn't give up much more than a couple of A ball prospects for a 2 month rental. I don't see a fit with the Brewers... unless they are going to pull a Mickey Stanley and move him to shortstop.

Actually, you're the one who's talking about small sample sizes. You continue to bring up that Carroll's struggled for a couple weeks now and that he walks a lot as your primary reasons for not wanting to get him. Yet you completely disregard the fact that Furcal has been awful this year. You use career stats then to make your argument. It's like it has to be one extreme or the other. How about looking at the past 2-3 years? Carroll has unquestionably been a better and more reliable offensive player as of late. And lets look at the edges you give Furcal. Younger-Well, who cares? If he hasn't been as good as of late, and if he is constantly hurt, what difference does it make? History of playing SS everyday? Well, he's not playing everyday when he's hurt. Some Power? Furcal is slugging .218 this year. Where does Carroll get the edge? He's got a better average, draws walks, hasn't been hurt. It's just a wildly inconsistent argument. You citing Carrolls recent struggles and saying he's not an upgrade and then definitively stating that Furcal is when he's putting up a .176/.240/.218 line this year just doesn't make sense. Either way, the better question should be what does Betancourt do better than Carroll OTHER than hit for power? I'll take Carroll over him defensively, better stick, better OBP. That's pretty clear cut. And he's been worth 1.5 wins this year playing a great deal at short, 2.5 last year playing 70 games at short. Betancourt? -.3 this year and .8 last year. Your disdain for someone who goes up there trying to draw walks aside, I don't see a convincing argument based on an objective argument that he's not an upgrade over Betancourt. Not inconsistent at all. The reason that I posted the career stats were because people were all over me when I said that Carroll has been horrible at the plate for the past month. In response, people were posting how consistent he's been over the past several seasons. Furcal has actually started hitting a little, but I'll grant you he's been brutal this season. However, I think that Carroll has been brutal as well, despite his BA and OBP. I know that the new-age stat folks dismiss RBI's, but come on- the guy has 8 RBI in 335 PA. That is beyond pathetic, and it tells me that he chokes with guys in scoring position. Sure enough, he's hitting .143 this season with guys in scoring position. Going further, he's never driven in more than 36 runs in a season. His career batting average with runners in scoring position is about 20 points lower and OPS is about 50 points lower than his overall career stats. This is the answer to the shortstop issue? I'll stand by my assertion that his best offensive attribute is the ability to draw a walk at a higher than average rate. I'm not even considering that he's never been an everyday shortstop. Guys are usually moved off short at 37, not the opposite.