RoseBowlMtg

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Alright Tomo Come on Lyle start it off!

1-2-3-4-5-6 Tomo. Now let's get some runs!

No problem gregmag baseball is all for discussion: Check out the HOF by position and then look at the HOF threads for the worthiness of Dawson, Raines and the rest and see if they have more hits than every OF in the HOF. See where they rank with RBI's. It's an utter joke imo. Andre Dawson great career: His 1591 rbi's to rank 2nd with OF's ala Simmons with catchers he'd have to surpass Babe Ruth's 2213. Only 622 behind not to mention so many other of's Is this a meaningless point? Ron Santo for 3rd baseman: Very good career: More hits than Brett? RBI's than Mathew's? Any player who wants to get into the HOF should not compare his stats per position to Simmons unless they want to get 17 votes.

gregmag states: OK, you've made a string of mediocre-to-bad arguments before, but this one can't be allowed to stand. I could ask what your assertion about Lee and the Brewers in 2005 (I think Jenkins can make a case) Isn't that laughable? If Jenkins can make a case I just think more people think 100 RBI's is better than 72. Yes and RBI's do tell a story. gregmag you state: So for those years, your argument is laughable. For the others, I agree that Simmons was the Cards' best hitter (Hernandez, not Brock, beat him out in 1976, according to this method.) So that's something big: five years out of seven as his team's best hitter. Let's look at 76 and see who was better: ..................hits...2B...HR..RBI...BB...SO...ave... Hernandez: 108..21....7....46.....49......53.....289 Simmons: 159..35....3....75.....73......35.....291 The only stat Hernandez had more was K's. How is a .289 hitter with only 46 RBI's better than Simmons? As for my mediocre arguments I would think leading your position in hits for your position should work for catchers since it works for every other position. If that doesn't work maybe second in RBI's should get you in per position since it does for every other position. Interesting thing to look up would be the ranks not in the HOF. For ex: Is the 6th rank 1st baseman in hits not in the HOF? We know the leader for catchers in hits isn't even eligible We know the 2nd place for catchers in ribbies isn't eligible. Let's look at the other positions. For another time. Yes some are mediocre points but the major points don't convince everyone and I have until 2011 to convince the veterans committee.

Alright gregmag way to go: I brought up Lee just because he has been the best player on the Brewers hasn't he? That being said I was only trying to point out that to say Simmons "wasn't" the best player on the Cards was wrong. Some years were close that we can look at but he was the best some time when he led his team in ribbies 7 straight years, 3 times by 15, 22 & 24 from a crucial defensive position. Great post though gregmag and I know ribbies isn't everything but when you compiler other stats it is showing. Let's look at 1974: In 1974, Reggie Smith outhit Simmons by 37 points and hit three more home runs. But you want us to believe that Simmons' advantage of three RBI makes him better? That was a close one: They both had 59 XBH's but Smith had 5 more total bases. I will give you that one but Simmons shouldn't be looked down upon for his 74 yr as a 24 yr old catcher. As for 76: 75 ribbies leading your team? 19 IBB's vs 7 for Brock tells you what the opposing pitchers were thinking. That being said 76 wasn't a very good year offensively for the Cards but John Denny led the NL in ERA. That has to give some cred to Simba. As in giving credit to Forsch do you give any credit to the guy who gets tons of credit from many pitchers? Let's look at more than RBI's since that isn't everything: 72: ave..rbi Brock .311, 42 Torre: .289, 81 Simmons .303 96 The best combination of ave and production 73: Brock .297, 63 Torre .287, 69 Simmons: .310, 91 ditto 74: Brock .306, 48 Smith .309, 100 Simmons .272, 103 A very good productive Cardinal team than lost by 2 games to Pitts. Most production but not the best hitter 75: Brock: .309, 47 Smith: .302, 76 Simmons: .332, 100 An incredible year for a 25 yr old catcher 76: Brock .301, 67 Cruz: .228, 71 Simmons: .291, 75 Great year for HOFamer 37 yr old Brock. 77: Hernandez: .291, 91 Templeton: .322, 79 Simmons: .318, 95 ML leader 25 IBB's 78: Hendrick .288, 67 Hernandez .255, 64 Simmons: .287, 80 Best offensive year again. 1979 Keith Hernandez made SI stating "Who's Keith Hernandez and what's he doing hitting .344?" gregmag you got me digging so thanks. If Simmons wasn't the man for the Cardinals every yr by just a bit in the 70's he was by the opposing pitchers. That all being said I believe that is a small criteria for evaluating Simmons HOF. Great thoughts though gregmag!

Let's take on this one: Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? The argument always went that Simmons was slightly better than Bench, especially after the Big Red Machine tumbled in 1977. After 1981, Gary Carter took on the mantle of "best catcher in the NL". First off the Carter reference does not apply in 81 since Simmons was in the AL. Bench was the man offensively and defensively but he let himself go if you remember the Superstars competition seeing how out of shape he got in the off season. By far was he the best in the early 70's. So should Simmons get criticized for not being the best? Let's look: 1971: ave-hr-rbi Bench: .238-27-61 Simmons: .304 7-77(71) Fisk meaningless Simmons had the better offensive year wouldn't you say? 1972: Bench: .270-40-125 (72) Fisk: .293-22-61 Simmons: .303-16-96 (71 Bench is the man but Simmons outperformed Fisk in his ROY year 1973: Bench: .253-25-104 (72,73) Fisk: .246-26-71 Simmons: .310-13-91(71) Interesting stat: runs scored: Boston 738, Cincy 741, St L 643 That being said it's Bench's year but Simmons +.057 in batting ave, knocking in 13 fewer runs when your team scored 98 fewer. Having Pete Rose and Joe Morgan getting on so often sure helps 1974: Bench: .280-33-129 (72,73,74) Fisk: .299-11-26 Simmons: .272-20-103 (71) Cincy runs scored 776 vs Cards 677 Great year for Bench 1975: Bench: .283 28-110 (72,73,74,75) Carter: .270-17-68 Fisk: .331-10-52 Simmons: .332-18-100 (71) Cincy runs scored 840, Cards 662 Very close one I will give to Bench even though Simmons knocked in the same amt of teammates on a much inferior team and hit .049 points higher 1976 Bench: .234-16-74 (72-75) Carter: .219-6-38 Fisk: .255-17-58 Simmons: .291-5-75 (71, 76) Cin 857 runs, Cards 629 Simmons IBB 19 times Bench 6. Highest ave and most ribbies 76 goes to Simmons 1977: Bench: .275-31-109 (72-75) Carter: .284-31-84 Fisk: .315-26-102 Simmons: .318-21-95 71,76,77) runs: Cin-802, Mon-665, Bos-859 Cards-737 Simmons 25 IBB. RBI rank on team: Bench: Foster 149, Bench 109 (2) (-40) Carter: Perez 91, Carter 84 (2) (-7) Fisk: Rice 114, Hobson 112, Yaz 102, Fisk 102 (T3) (-12) Simmons: Simmons 95 (1) (+4) Carter not even being the best run producer on his team while Bench gets blown out by 40 ribbies to show you what a real productive year with Rose and Morgan can do. 77 was Bench's last year knocking in 100 runs but this wasn't his year imo. Fisk had good year for him but it wasn't better than Simmons evidenced by his league leading 25 IBB. 1978: Bench: .260-23-73 (72-75) Carter: .255-20-72 Fisk: .284-20-88 Simmons: .287-22-80 (71,76,77,7http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif runs: Cin 710, Mon 633, Bos 796 Cards 600 rbi rank: Cin: Foster 120, Morgan 75, Bench 73 (3) (-47) Mon: Perez 78, Valentine 76, Carter 72 (3) (-6) Bos: Rice 139, Fisk 88 (2) (-51) Cards: Simmons 80, Reitz 75 (1) ( +5) This is a competition btwn Fisk/Simmons with Boston scoring 196 more runs and being over 50 runs behind the best run producer on your team has to go to the guy who produced similar numbers and was the best on his team. Incidental 17 IBB. 1979: Bench: .276-22-80 (72-75) Carter: .283-22-75 Fisk: .272-10-42 Simmons: .283-26-87 (71, 76-79) Simmons wins the triple crown for HOF catchers when he missed a month with a broken hand. 1980: Bench: .260-23-73 (72-75) Carter: .264-29-101 Fisk: .289-7-45 Simmons: .303-21-98 (71, 76-80) Close one btwn Carter and Simmons but +.039 in batting ave beats -3 in RBI's 1981: Strike year: Bench: .309-8-25 (72-75) Carter: .251-16-68 (81) Fisk: .263-7-45 Simmons: .216-14-61(71, 76-80) This one goes to Carter 1982: Bench:.255-12-54 (72-75) Carter: .293-29-97 (81) Fisk: .267-14-65 Simmons: .269-23-97(71,76-80, 82) This is a close one btwn Carter and Simmons so if you want to go leagues the last two years you know who the best were for the leagues. Milwaukee makes the playoffs for two straight years so I will give this one to Simmons with Carter getting the close 81. 1983: Bench: .255-12-54 (72-75) Carter: .270-17-79 (Strike year) Fisk: .289-26-86 (never) Simmons: .308-13-108 (71,76,77,78,79,80,82,83) 83 was the year the White Sox won the pennant and Fisk got a 3rd place MVP voting for his inferior numbers to Simmons. Small Market??? I contend in a 14 year span Ted Simmons was the best offensive catcher in 8 of those years. Bench in the early 70's and Carter only in the strike year when Simmons changed leagues so that comparison can't be made. Some years were close but if you look at the numbers for a decade and a half Simmons was near or the best catcher in baseball while Fisk got in never being and Carter only in the strike year. Carter went on had a couple more decent years but the head to head years with Simmons he did not better him. In the AL tell me another catcher who had these three RBI totals from 81-83: (61-97-10http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif These were Simmons down years: Fisk: (45-65-86) No! I will delve into more later but interesting look jwhouk. Agree/disagree?

Let's look at this: Was he the best player on his team? While he was a Cardinal, he was one of the best ? though they had Lou Brock at the time. When he was with the Brewers, Robin Yount was "the Man". When he was with the Braves, it was Dale Murphy. So the answer is no. Was he the best in St.Louis? That seems to be getting not much of a look. Let me ask you this. Is Carlos Lee having the best year of any Brewer this year? Sounds a bit rhetorical doesn't it? Lee: .267-30-100 Jenkins: .284-20-72 Overbay: .273-16-64 Lee is the best Brewer this year. So if that is true let's see if Simmons should get more than a passing glance if he was the best player in St. Louis 1972: Simmons: .303-16-96 Torre: .289-11-81 Brock .311-3-42 Sizemore: .264-2-38 Torre was better in 71 when he was .36.-24-137 but not 72. 1973: Simmons: .310-13-91 Torre: .287-13-69 Brock: .297-7-63 Cruz .227-10-57 Is a leadoff hitter definitively better than the run producer. That can be argued but Simmons was the top run producer again. 1974: Simmons: .272-20-103 Smith: .309-23-100 Torre: .282-11-70 Brock: .306-3-48 At least Simba had someone producing with him. 1975: Simmons .332-18-100 Smith: .302-19-76 Reitz: .269-5-63 Sizemore: .240-3-49 It would be tough to argue that Simmons wasn't the best this year wouldn't it? 1976: Simmons: .291-5-75 Cruz: .228-13-71 Brock: .301-4-67 Crawford: (Who?) .304-9-50 5th straight years being the best producer? Any credit? 1977: Simmons: .318-21-95 Hernandez: .291-15-91 Reitz: .261-17-79 6 in a row! 1978: Simmons: .287-22-80 Reitz: .246-10-75 Hendrick: .288-17-67 Hernandez: .255-11-64 7 in a row! In 1979 Simmons was having an incredible year this got hit and broke his hand. After playing 152,161,152,157,150,150 & 152 games in the 7 previous years leading his team in hitting, Simmons only played 123 games in 79 because of being hit by a pitch. Numbers: .283-26-87. What might have been but a hit by pitch broke his 7 consecutive yrs leading his team in RBI's which remains unbroken. For Carlos Lee to have 28 more RBI's than the 2nd place ribbie guy on the Brewers and to be acknowledged being the best player on the Brewers how come: When Simmons led his teammates by: 72: 15 73: 22 74: 3 75: 24 76: 4 77: 4 78: 5 He should be considered the best player in some of those years shouldn't he? As far as Brock being better in 74 Simmons came in 13th in the MVP while Brock didn't crack the top 25. Interesting take but Simmons was the man for St.Louis while voted the captain right away in 81 for the Brewers, Milw had better players then Atl he wasn't full time so his numbers there shouldn't be looked at as much as his 15 years as a full time player. Thought provoking post that I will delve into more.

jwhouk went into so much detail it raised some ?'s to me: All-Star Games: Eight games (1972-74, 1977-79, 1981, 1983). Awards: 1980 NL Silver Slugger (Catcher); No MVP awards; 3 top 10 MVP vote finishes (1972, 1975, 1977) By looking at this it made me wonder: If Simmons missed the All-Star game in 75 but was top 10 in MVP voting why wasn't he an All-Star? The next year Simmons missed being an All-Star was in 1980 when he won the NL Silver Slugger award. So from 72-80 in the NL Simba missed two All-Star games but won post season awards. Hmmmm? How come: Your 1975 NL All-Stars: Catchers: Bench: .283 28 110 Cincy 1st place (Well deserved) Carter: .270 17 68 Montreal last place (Only Mon selection) Sanguillan .328 9 58 Pitt (good year) Now Simmons was an All-Star the two previous years so what happened in 75? Simmons .332 18 100 It's obvious Simmons had a better year than Carter and Manny. Because Montreal needed one player in Simmons didn't make the All-Star team which goes against his career record because Carter made it and Simba didn't. That is why the All-Star selection is at times misleading. Let's look at the next year Simmons didn't make the All-Star team: 1980 NL All-Star Catchers Bench .250 24 68 (reputation) Carter .264 29 101(good yr only Expo) Stearns .285 0-45 (Only Met) Simmons .303 21-98 Didn't make it because they selected Stearns as the only Met and Bench on reputation. Carter had a good yr but he was also an only player selected from his team. Simmons won the Silver Slugger for catchers in 80 but gets dissed for not being an All-Star. Bad barometer imo. Since starting at the beginning of the season in 72 Simmons missed only two All-Star games but has won the Silver Slugger for his position and had an incredible year in 75 where the Reds flooded the ballot boxes and Simba got left off vs inferior years by Carter and Manny. Next miss was 1982: AL All-Star catchers: Fisk .267 14 65 (Only White Sox) Parrish .286 24 82 (Only Tiger) Simmons .297 23 97 World Series, Cy Young award winning pitcher and fireman of the year. Voted Captain. Fisk gets All-Star game credit and Simmons doesn't. I know All-Star games aren't selected by the end of the year stats but if you look at Simmons career he played consistently without many injuries so from 72-83 he was worthy of being selected an All-Star every year. Any stat to prop up Fisk and Carter and downgrade Simmons when Simmons outperformed them is flawed. Onto more detail later:

Wow some very interesting info there then to hear at the end that he had no idea what Simmons did after says a lot about the Keltner list. GM at Pittsburgh and how about farm director for the Padres. Simmons didn't think they should worsen two positions when Herzog came over by putting him at first and Hernandez in left. Simmons was right. Simmons was voted captain of the '81 Brewers team that Keltner didn't seem to factor in with all that talent his teammates voted him captain so quickly after arriving. Respect! Lou Brock was a great leadoff hitter and in 73 and 74 let's compare the stats: .............ave...HR....RBI 73: Brock: .297 7 63 Simmons: .310 13 91 2nd place in ribbies "Torre" with 69 74: Brock: .306 3 48 Simmons: .272 20 103 Brock stole bases and Simmons led his team in ribbies 7 straight years which according to Keltner doesn't mean he was the best on his team. In 73 the Cards were 1 game back in second place and in 74 they were 2 back also in second place. Keltner's justification of not getting MVP votes just showed how little people knew about him. In 83 Fisk came in 3rd in the MVP voting with inferior numbers to Simmons so that was just wrong. Very interesting take but way too many holes. Very in dept.

A PH A PR A SB A Sac A Suicide Squeeze! They beat SD at their own game! Great job!

Let's win this thing!

Man I missed Matt Wise. Now there's a pitcher! Pitches around the better hitting lefty to load the bases and blows away the younger guy!

You think SD knows how to win and Milwaukee should be paying attention to it!

Jenks went into the locker room-his back didn't look good running! Nice hit Billy!

Wow DHonks: while some mentioned Fielder's shortcomings at 1b, don't forget that Lyle turns a lot of outs into hits, and bad throws into errors. It seems as though anything hit remotely hard at Lyle will be a hit, either cleanly or off his glove Your perspective has seen a different season and a half than Rich Dauer's view. Interesting how opinions sway observation.

Lyle does get a lot of bad throws and a lefty would have had an easier shot at it. I think Prince thought he was going to get it or he would have gone off of the bag. Should be interesting to watch along with the adjustments Prince makes on all the off speed low breaking balls he's going to see. Here's to hoping he adjusts quickly offensively and defensively.

Bando1234 states so well: My concluson: while offense was above average especially for a catcher, his defense by no means was so bad to keep him out of the Hall. I am kind of surprised no one comparred Simmons to Gary Carter whom played in mainly the same era. To say Simmons should not be in the HOF because of defense ignores completely his rapport with pitchers and the success they had with him. All position players didn't have this opportunity nor did other catchers excel the way Simba did. I could compare Simmons to all of them and it would show you what kind of joke this omission was, To compare to Fisk shows how skewed the entire results were. When Carter didn't get in he compared his stats to Fisk stating he should be in with comparison but he no way would compare them with Simmons. Check this out: The HOF catchers stats and Simba's: ..........AVG OBP SLG HITS HR RBI RUNS Bench .267 .345 .476 2,048 389 1,376 1,091 Berra .285 .350 .482 2,150 358 1,430 1,175 Bresnahan .279 .386 .377 1,252 26 530 682 Campanella .276 .362 .500 1,161 242 856 627 Carter .262 .335 .439 2,092 324 1,225 1,025 Cochrane .320 .419 .478 1,652 119 832 1,041 Dickey .313 .382 .486 1,969 202 1,209 930 Ewing .303 .351 .456 1,625 71 883 1,129 Ferrell .281 .378 .363 1,692 28 734 687 Fisk .269 .343 .457 2,356 376 1,330 1,276 Hartnett .297 .370 .489 1,912 236 1,179 867 Lombardi .306 .358 .460 1,792 190 990 601 Schalk .253 .340 .316 1,345 11 594 579 Simmons .285 .348 437 2472 248 1389 1074 If you want to rank them 1-14 per categories: ......AVE OBP SLG HITS HR RBI Bench 12,11,6,5,1,3, 38 pts (6th) Berra 6,9,4,3,2,1, 26 pts (1st) Bresnahan 9,2,12,13,13,14, 59 pts (13th) Campy 10,6,1,14,4,5, 47 pts (10) Carter 13,14,10,4,4,5, 40 pts (8th) Cochrane 1,1,5,4,10,11, 32 pts (3rd) Dickey 2,3,3,6,8,6, 28 pts (2nd) Ewing 4,8,9,10,11,9, 51 pts (11th) Ferrell 8,4,13,7,12,12, 56 pts (12th) Fisk 11,12,8,2,2,4, 39 pts (7th) Hartnett 5,5,2,8,7,7, 34 pts (4th) Lombardi 3,7,7,9,9,8 43 pts (9th) Schalk 14,13,14,13,14,13, (Last) Simmons 6,10,11,1,5,2 35 pts (5th) This kind of rating doesn't say all but it does say plenty when you look into it. 1-4 are from a live ball era and Simmons ranks higher than his contemporaries. If you want to rate the importance of certain stats I always think RBI's are more important than HR's . Hartnett having 210 fewer RBI's than Simmons with basically the same number of HR's. It would be interesting if someone adjusted these numbers per the times they played. For another day I guess. The question does Simmons belong in the HOF. Undeniably YES!

bobble head night el caballo!!!!

Atta boy Obie! Now let's get him some runs!!!!

LV try to think of it this way: I assume you are a Brewer fan: Prince is going to be here a long time: Will the Brewers get more for Overbay if he rides the bench the rest of the year or if he finishes real strong and helps the team finish above .500? Let's hope O gets hot which is going to help his marketability. Being benched right now will destroy his trade value.

Well Prince sure can crush a hanging curveball waist high but like so many he'll have to overcome that out of the strike zone off speed pitch. He's got time. He'll crush mistakes but...

Too many Brewer pitchers are throwing strikes on 0-2 counts and it's killing us. "Throw strikes early so you don't have to later!" Why aren't they listening to Maddux?

Way to go Ned on starting Helling to help the team this year!!!!!http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif

And I forgot to switch Jenks from my fantasy bench tonight!http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/pimp.gif

What is he, somewhere around 3 for his last 25 It's actually 3 for his last 26 but whenever they mention that kind of stat you know he must be 4-27 or they would have said 3-27. So digging back to where this 3-26 streak happened what happened prior to that. 4-1-2-0 (5-30) .167 4-0-2-1 (7-34) .206 4-0-2-0 (9-3http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif .237 Throw in the six walks in the 10 starts and the tieing walk yesterday O's obp for the last 10 days is .341. Numbers can be construed to anyone's desire so I like to see how they did the games before the small segment to see how the numbers look away from that point of view. The Brewers need Overbay to get hot so it will increase his market value. Prince will be here a very long time so imo that is the way the upper brass wants to play this. So let's get hot O and let's get above .500%