Thurston Fluff

Given the situation over there it might be a blessing in disguise. They have a meddlesome owner and a really farm system.

This pitching staff just isn't that good to being with even if Bush and Suppan pitch all year They were in or near first place all season until Bush and Soup got hurt. They had the most quality starts of any team in baseball during that time. When those two got hurt the pitchers who replaced them routinely failed to get past the 5th inning. That lead to a strain on the bullpen which lead to a total meltdown fthe staff. The problem wasn't the rotation as it was constructed that killed the Brewers as much as it was the lack of depth. The first half of the season showed those five could be good enough to contend. Those of us who thought this team could contend thought so on the condition we got a little lucky with injuries in the rotation. That didn't happen and the result was predictable. As was the result of sub par ST Louis team performance before they got their injured players back. Many of those who thought the Brewer would have been where they are thought so because they didn't feel Soup, Bush and Looper would be good enough to keep the team in games not that they didn't have enough depth in the minors to cover injury. In that respect they were as wrong as we were for thinking the staff would stay healthy.

He was also in the bullpen most of those years. His ERA is 4.64 as a starter. That is not bad for a guy who stays healthy and pitches 180+ innings a year. I don' tthink you find that on the open market for much less than we would ahve to pay him. As far as that a high 4 ERA pitcher pretty much getting $6M on the open market. If that were true then how come he only got $4.75M with a mutual option coming off a 199 IP, 4.16 ERA season? There is absolutely no reason and no justification for the Brewers to bring him back. Now if he really does want to come back here, then he can come back for less, but it's ridiculous to just settle for $6M of mediocrity It was a very unusual FA year last year. It was the first time in a long time where the market favored the teams more than the players. To expect that to happen again is risky to say the least. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Looper decline the option if he can and test the market once again. It is more than likely to be a better market for the players this season than last.

I don't think he has the philosophy to look at someone who will be a bit outside the box, like a Bobby Valentine or Tony LaRussa type guy. I always felt Yost was very similar to LaRussa. Both hit their pitchers 8th at times and did unconventional moves fairly regularly. Most seemed to think Yost did so too regularly. 6.5 million for a #4 type with a 5-ish E.R.A. isn't really overpaying. His career ERA is much closer to 4 than 4 and he isn't at 5 this year so I don't think it's a fair comment to say he is a 5ish ERA pitcher. Looper has a high earned run average (4.77) Again how is this high? It isn't low but to me high is in the 5's not the mid to upper 4's. That is pretty much what $6 million gets you on the open market for a pitcher who isn't coming off an injury or really bad year. It is also what you would have to pay for any other one who is out there next year. If the economy is better that price will look cheap by comparison. I've stayed away from criticizing Macha because as a Yost fan (even more so after seeing the alternative) I didn't want to appear like sour grapes. I do think his use of the bench is abysmal and I do worry about his seemingly cool relationship with players. Not that I think they need to love him but they do need to respect him. Not so sure that is the case.

So the team becomes nothing more than a sideshow if they celebrate in a manner you don't approve of? I am allowed an opinion even if it is not in favor of what the player or you agree with am I not? I'm not sure why you need to restate my thoughts on how I like my team to act as though I am saying I am the sole purveyor or all things Brewers. I don't think we all just agree with you that it was fresh and entertaining. My opinion, which is the only thing I or anyone else on can give on this subject, is it isn't fresh or entertaining. I don't know why you seem to be getting mad that I have a different idea of what I want the team I follow to act like than you do. What's the point of a blog if not to debate differing opinions? If you have a difference on opinion fine but don't expect me to just accept yours as better than mine. So once again I will state my opinion, like some others on this thread and around baseball, is it wasn't fresh, it wasn't entertaining and wasn't very professional. If you disagree fine, it's all about what we personally want our players to act like.

Really? Someone had better inform the sausages. What about all the other "entertainment" that goes on at miller park: the rubber chicken contest the kiss cam follow the ball contest guess the attendance pathetic attempts at orchestrated cheer leading (ie. "charge" and "make some noise") and please tell fans to stop doing the wave all the amusement park-like crap on the concourses etc. Which one of those involves a player? I also wonder if all of those combined are enough to draw a crowd to the stadium if the team sucks on the field. I tend to think if the Brewers said they would have all those attractions after the season and it would only cost $5 you would not have enough people come to make it worth opening the doors. I would go one step further and say you can make it free and nobody would show up. Baseball players actually playing baseball is the attraction. Everything else is a sideshow. I would prefer my team avoid becoming nothing more than a sideshow.

Dave Duncan is hugely responsible for their success. He's made guys like Jeff Suppan, Kyle Lohse, Braden Looper, and Joel Pinero look good. Don't forget Kip Wells. I do think Duncan is pretty good but like any coach gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when things go wrong. If you look at some of the success stories it appears to have less to do with who is the pitching coach than a bit of luck combined with good personnel decisions. Suppan had already started to get it together in Pittsburgh. He had the same ERA in Pit as his best year with the Cards. Pinero has always been up and down. In his time with the Cards he got fixed got broke then got fixed again. If it was really Duncan I don't know why he would have had the same sort of pattern he had his whole career in three years with the Cards. He always gave up a lot of hits and had a fairly high BAA but some years he got outs with men of base while others he gave up those runs. Lohse has a career ERA of 4.67 his ERA this year is 4.62 I don't see that as much different. They aren't scared to trade prospects for proven players. They pick their spots. Last year Pujols was mad because they didn't make any moves when the Brewers and Cubs did. That left them with a couple more trading chips this year. This year everything fell into place for them and it made sense to trade some of their prospects. That is part of what makes them such a sound organization IMO. They know when to go for it and when not to. Same can be said of the Brewers the last couple years. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see them struggle next year as they did the last couple. Nor would I be at all surprised to see the Brewers raise back towards the top next year. Now that they traded their best players for short term fixes they will have to make do with what they have next year. Doesn't that sound familiar to Brewer fans these last two years? The other thing is injuries. When the Brewers were healthy this year and the Cards were not the Brewers beat them. When the tables turned so did the team's fortunes. At this point all their horses run and no chipped paint. The Brewers OTOH not so fortunate.

If you can't have fun, no matter what your job is, you're in the wrong job. It doesn't do any good to stay serious and straight-laced all the time. Lighter moments can help relieve stress. I guess it all depends on what you call fun. If you think showboating is fun then it was fun. If you think fun is simply playing the game with pride and enjoy the actual playing of the game then there is no need to have that type of act to enjoy oneself. I guess if the team needs to create fun because the game itself isn't fun then maybe they need to do that sort of thing. Baseball is a sport not a job. Baseball is a game not a job. Baseball is a childs game played by men. Just because they get paid to play a game doesn't make it a job. Actually it is a job. Getting paid to do it does make it a job. The reason we pay to see the games isn't to see them have fun it's to see them play baseball. Maybe even win once in awhile. Chill out man the object of a sport is to entertain the crowd not be corporate robots. The object is to entertain by pitching and hitting the ball, running the bases and fielding. If all we wanted was any form of entertainment they could just stop the game when it gets boring and have Braun do a stand-up routine or maybe have them do some skit comedy. At least then the premeditated action would be funny. I just think the extra stuff takes away from the actual game. Kind of like how the bozo Bengals receiver in football used to have a different act after every TD was more known for those TD celebrations than the team was for actually playing the game. If the only way to entertain the crowd or get recognized is by corny celebrations your not playing the game very well. Yes, I think he will. If the Giants are stupid enough to give him a free base, I think that's awesome. I'm sure Prince will be so thrilled with the free base he gets from them he will hunt down the pitcher who gave it to him after the game to thank him. That is a bit of the problem with the Brewers. They don't seem to understand their actions that rub other teams wrong comes back to them later. Then they don't handle it very well. The dodgers best hitter gets hit then the Dodgers do what all teams do by hitting the Brewers best hitter and Prince handles it as poorly as he could. Will they handle the retaliation certain to come from the Giants next year any better? If history tells us anything they won't.

While I certainly think it's one or the other I don't know if it's mandatory to trade either of them in the off season. Granted we need pitching but if we can get it without trading either of them or we can't get what we want in return we may end up better off keeping them both. Hardy can reestablish himself and it wouldn't hurt Escobar to play a little longer in AAA to get his bat up to speed. Just food for thought.

Actually I don't find the Lambeau leap all that fresh nor do I find TD celebrations all that exciting. I watch sports for the game not the antics. It feeds my competitive side, I love the highs and lows, but never once watched a game and thought boy it would sure be nice to see this team do something funny after they score a meaningless victory/point. I'm not looking down on people who do like it. Just different strokes for different folks I guess. All of this has nothing to do with how classless/hypocritical I think the Cards and their fans are. They seem to confuse knowledge with class. Really all they were last year was sore losers. When I saw that type of attitude I found it hard to respect them anymore.

i wonder if Prince will think it's as funny when he gets one in the ribs next year. They will remember. I guess I just don't see why it was so funny then again I don't see the humor in punked or Jack(butt) so maybe I'm just a curmudgeon. To me it's like telling a joke in the wrong situation. No matter how funny the joke telling it at a child's funeral would take some of the humor out of it...unless he was killed by a toilet.

I found no more joy in watching it than I did with the walkoff homer to begin with. What exactly is so fun about watching players hot dog on a losing team?

Your #3 and #4 hitter more than likely will be able to hit that player home with them standing on 1B. Going from 1B to 2B shouldn't increase the odds of a leadoff hitter scoring with a teams #3 and #4 hitter at the plate. I don't think you would find many who would agree the #3 or 4 hitter would not have any more RBI with a runner on second than first. Even cleanup hitters hit more singles than extra base hits. The key is the caught stealing rate not who is up next IMHO.

spontaneously celebrating by jumping up and down and piling on is not the same as sitting down and saying next time we have a walk off homer everyone fall down. One is planned and doing so when a playoff hope just went down the drain seemed like an odd time to plan it. If the team is still having fun and enjoying each other's company to that extent I have to wonder if winning is as important as it should be for them. After they failed to win either of the two series in which the manager himself said it was do or die they should have been upset, not celebrating the first of a month's worth of meaningless games with made up celebrations. I could see the antics if it was to get the team going or to build unity for getting the team up and going for the stretch run. That was not what was going on. It was not a way to pump up a dragging team for a playoff run or to turn things around. It was the beginning of playing out the string because of their failures the last 5 games. All it showed me was they don't get it. I don't really give a rats behind if they love playing or love the team as long as they win. They are paid professionals and the only thing I am concerned about is my fun not theirs. If the team genuinely likes being around each other and it helps keep the good ones around longer all the better. I just don't see how that type of behavior does that. The fun is for the fans. The fun the players have takes a very distant back seat to our enjoyment and especially winning. The fans generally prefer winning to made up celebrations after winning 1 of 3 and 2 of 6 against teams they needed to beat. I don't really like the pointing to God or the usual antics that many players on all teams today have so in that way I don't think any team should be pointing fingers, especially one who employed the biggest disgrace to the game in Barry Bonds. Or the ones who seem to think the only thing that matters is the game while drinking and driving... pardon me...ahem, falling asleep at a stop light after the game is done. But that doesn't mean I like what the Brewers do. I always liked to quiet professional types.

Apparently Macha wasn't a fan of it. Macha, definitely old-school, was not thrilled with the display, however. "I was shocked, standing there," said Macha, who was not aware a celebration had been choreographed for such a moment. "But this is 2009, when a guy gets to home plate, points up and beats his chest (after a homer). Some people take that as disrespect. I'm not a huge fan of it, I do think it's a bit stupid to celebrate winning one game out of three with the team under .500 and out of the playoff race with a month left to play. Showing emotion is one thing but planned celebrations are not emotion they are "look at me, let's do something to get on sports center," actions. If they want to be on prime time and highlight shows win a few more games. All that said the Cards and their fans have shown themselves to be poor losers and I have no time for such types. Their fans may be knowledgeable but that is not the same as good sportsmen. Their idea of respect all revolves around them being superior to others and that is not any more respectful to the game than over celebrating.

The Podsednick/Lee trade was one major league player for another. There are plenty of reasons to trade veteran for veteran. While sometimes it does create a hole to fix another that is far from always the case. If a team feels it is in the midst of a window of opportunity and has depth at one spot and a hole in another they very well may demand a veteran in return for a veteran. All it takes is two teams who feel they are ready to compete and think they have to many of one type of player and not enough of another. The Brewers appear to me to be in need of speed more than they are power so trading JJ and keeping Escobar seems to make more sense to me.

Are they hit all that much harder or just hard more often?

He's committed 3 errors. Now maybe his range will compensate for that over time, but 3 errors give you -1.3 runs in value its hard to overcome that. JJ Hardy committed 2 errors in 18 games in AAA. I understand the rookie argument when it comes to hitting and pitching but not when it comes to fielding. A hitter has to adjust to better pitchers and for the most part ones he has rarely if ever seen before. Same goes with pitching. Other than improved field conditions fielding is no different from one level to the other. If the player can get to the ball and make the throw it makes little difference at all who hit the ball or who pitched it.

That's just wrong. Hardy was always considered a gem defensively. Again to pretend the Escobar is suddenly going to be greater then the top palyers at the position just isn't smart. Yup you is rite I am not smart. I cold not hold a kandle to yu in the smarts deprtment. I gess eveyody who seems to tink he is beter, includin the GM ar dum two. I guess Hardy is stil a top palyer and shoud be giving the jub indefinatly. Those of us who don't agree wit yu are all jus pretnding. Dat is why he was demoted in favore or Escobar.

I think it is so long because it hits a core difference in how fans view players and teams. Someone astutely pointed out this is bit like the Favre debate. Some people are fans follow a team but identify more with the players on the team than the team itself, some find the players more or less interchangeable but follow the team. I tend to follow the team or, to be more accurate, the process of building/maintaining a team. Hardy was a popular player here even before he was in the majors. Many fans identify with him and wanted him specifically to be part of the team for as long as possible. I tend to want him around only until he can be replaced by someone better or as good but cheaper. It's really a matter of what aspect of the game one is most interested in. If you are interested in a personal connection to a specific player you would probably be very agnry with how he is being treated. If interest is more team based then I think one would find the team's handling of him more favorably. I don't want to come off like those who follow specific players are wrong or not as interested in the team's fortunes just that we all have our own aspect of the team we enjoy following.

And I'll take that a rookie player isn't going to suddenly be much better than the top palyers defensively at his position. Suddenly? He's been touted as a defensively ready for the major leagues great shortstop for a couple years now. The question was never his defense it was always whether he could hit at the major league level. Hardy is a very good shortstop but he was never considered special defensively. The word special has been used to describe Escobar by pretty much every one who has seen him play.

I think out of zone plays made has some value but it is so limited that using it to tell us the defensive value of a player is akin to using batting average to tell us the true value of a players offensive value. Out of zone plays can also be deceiving. It tells us the relative range a player may have but a player who continually has more out of range plays might just be poor at judging where to be in the first place. Defensive measures are fine in a narrow scope and all taken together may tell us something of the overall defense but I don't think any of them are nearly as comprehensive as some of the offensive stats are that we can use any single one of them to get anywhere near true value like we can by eyeballing a single stat like OPS and get a general idea.

No Escobar wouldn't be better then Hardy defensively. Thank you for the insight but I'll go by the people in baseball including Melvin who has said Escobar is a once in generation type of defensive shortstop and the plethora of scouts, including Jack Z., who say he is top notch over your personal opinions if you don't mind. I might even take my own sight over yours if that's all right with you.

You know how sucky Hardy played this year? Basically his complete fall off? That's the expectation for Escobar right now. So on one hand you say Hardy was worth 6ish Million because his defensive value is so high but on the other Escobar is not going to be any better because he will not be any better than Hardy on offense? IF Hardy is worth 6 million this year Escobar putting up the same offensive numbers would be worth more. you see that batting average is at least as volatile as UZR, but you don't hear anybody arguing it's a useless stat as a consequence of that volatility. I think the person using UZR in his claim about Hardy's worth would be the first to tell you batting average is pretty much a useless stat. The use of batting average level stats int he calculation of a players worth is partially why I think the value using it to tell us he was worth 22 million last year and 6 this is off base.

It appears unlikely we will get top level pitching this off season. If you can't get top flight pitching you can make up for it with top flight defense. Cam and Escobar up the middle is about as good as you can get. If he wants to come back at the same or lower money I'm all for it. Keep Cam trade Hardy for some AA pitcher who could start at AAA and be ready if they need him. Then find a mid level veteran pitcher or two to compete for a starting job. If we can find one or two coming off injury that is willing to play on a one year contract to reestablish themselves it could be a cheap way to patch the pitching until some of the minor league talent is ready.