treego14

Is Bill Hall swaying anybody's opinion this past week, possibly? My goodness! This guy is white-hot!http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif How about that defensive gem at the end of another 4-for-4 performance tonight, also! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Wow! That was a mouthful. I'm being kind. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif I have been careful not to label any single individual here as being racist. But when the data clearly shows Hall having a much better season and displaying power, speed, and range that Hardy has failed to demonstrate having, I think the question of any racial motivation is valid. You may say, "How dare I?" in asking such a question. We are too "stuffed-shirted" to ask these questions, it seems. If you have no racial motivations, then simply say, "I've searched my heart, and I simply think Hardy is the better player for reason X or reason Y --- it has nothing to do with race." And be done with it. There is no need for you to sling all this other stuff about Communism, etc. which is totally unrelated to Hardy vs. Hall at SS. I have been so underwhelmed by the evidence for why people defend Hardy as the starting SS over Hall, the question came to mind, and that is why I asked. Take it easy. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gifhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif P.S. No comments on my seasonal breakdown of stats and the appropriate pictures I just posted?

HTML Comments are not allowed OFF-TOPIC: Why is this comment popping up when I'm posting. I'm not entering any HTML code here ... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif It seems that this forum doesn't like the "greater than" symbol --- that is why I was getting this message. I don't know why the "greater than" symbol is characterized as "HTML Comments," though.

What are you talking about? You cannot be honest about your feelings here? It is related to baseball, certainly, since there is an interracial makeup to this team and the players discussed here.

Why narrow the picture to such a degree? If you want to do that, looking at September numbers ... Hall is hitting .348 and playing stellar defense and making things happen on the bases. Hardy is hitting .333 while playing average defense and making nothing happen on the bases. I'm encouraged by Hardy's hitting of late, certainly. I'm not blind to that. Perhaps, he wil have earned playing time for next season by now. I still cannot see how what he has done for a portion of the season somehow justifies putting Hall on the bench or taking Hall away from his natural position. Hall's BA is actually better after the All-Star break than before, besides ... did you know that? Daron Sutton said on tonight's TV broadcast that he asked Hall last night at a public event what position Hall wanted to play, and Hall diplomatically answered, "Starter." Hall needs to be a starter for the Brewers. Anything else would be an injustice and a very bad decision on the Brewers part. I cannot say the same thing should Hardy be delegated to a part-timer without a regular position. For the season, Hall's ------ BA-OBP-SLG is .283,.331,.477 For the season, Hardy's --- BA-OBP-SLG is .241,.326,.372 For the season Hall's SB's ----- 18 (that's 18 singles/walks that are effectively doubles --- it even accentuates Hall's slugging superiority) For the season, Hardy's SB's - 0 Season, Hall's SS Fielding-Range Factor --- .975/4.41 Season, Hardy's Fielding-Range Factor------- .973/3.78 Hall is towering over the competition: http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/aug04/shall831.jpg Hall doesn't deserve to be #2 ... he deserves to be #1: http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/04/28/hallhr.jpg

Perhaps, you need to read my comment on that in full context. If your heart is pure in this regard and you are 100% certain you are not pulling for Hardy because he is like-skinned with you, then you are clear. Why take personally something that does not apply to you, then? I'm not immune to this sort of thing, though. I admit it. I don't consider myself racist, but I have been prone to pulling for guys of my own skin color (I happen to be Caucasian) in similar situations. If I can do it, I'm sure others can do it, also. Of course, it is not something most people will readily admit to, though. I know white guys that will root for the white guys more heartily because they are white guys. I know black guys that will root more heartily for the black guys because they are black guys. It is human nature. Such human nature can be overcome by the Spirit of God and having deep and meaningful relationships with people of other races, I believe, but it is not something that comes naturally for many people. All said and done, I still find it inexplicable that some here can argue that Hardy is better than Hall. It is so illogical to me that I cannot help but wonder about the racial component to this. If that offends you or others, then I have to wonder if you are, in fact, prone to such things as I'm describing.

Well, I agree that he wouldn't make as good a 2B as Hall or Weeks, but I don't think he makes as good a SS as Hall, either. I think he could start for Weeks while Weeks is fighting a thumb injury, though.

@ Brian the Automator: If you think Rickie Weeks isn't good enough right now to play in light of alternatives, what is your starting left side of the infield? Are you saying SS: Hardy, 2B: Hall, 3B: Cirillo/Branyan/Helms? I'd much rather have SS: Hall (gotta' put the best range guy at SS), 2B: Weeks (if thumb is bothering him too much, put Hardy in there), 3B: platoon Cirillo/Helms vs. LHP and Branyan vs. RHP (if Branyan's shoulder is hurting too much for consistent play, let Cirillo have the bulk of time because of his more solid defense and proven bat throughout his career). For next season, I'd like to see Hall at SS, Weeks at 2B, and Hart/Branyan at 3B. Hardy is okay for utility work around the left side of the infield. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif P.S. How about Hall tonight? He's carrying that big bat up to the plate again tonight! Single! Single! Triple! Single! They cannot get him out tonight! And how about that ranging play in the 9th inning play with his back to the infield to snare that looping line drive/blooper! The guy's a cornerstone player. MVP tonight! He's only 25 years old on top of it!

I do value solid ranging defense up the middle. That's why Hall should play SS, notwithstanding Hall's superiority in offensive speed and power and batting average. It is more apt to sacrifice a little defensively for the sake of offense at 2nd base, generally, anyway. SS is the busiest position that requires the most range. That said, we all know that Weeks will far exceed what Hardy is gonna' do offensively. The proof of that is not just this season at MLB, but in the minor league stats. Weeks thumb injury is probably buggin' him, too. He will be better when the thumb is better. If his thumb is really hampering him, perhaps he should sit for awhile as you say and let Hall and Hardy team up while the thumb gets repaired through time or surgery. Enjoy the game tonight, everybody! I hope Hardy, Hall, and Weeks all excel tonight! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm a Brewers fan.

I corrected my original post to say "A and/or AA." It's a tossup there. There is no way one can objectively state that Hardy had any real AAA exposure that merits any discussion of his accomplishments at that level. 26 games is not enough to gauge his skill level in comparison to other AAA players, realistically. I stand by the title of the thread. I think that the range rating has a good level of validity at rating ranginess of defensive players ... if enough games are played. Of course, in a small random sample such statistics can possibly come up with laughingly inaccurate material.

Your point makes no sense. Hall is better than Hardy. Weeks is better than Hardy. But you want Hall to replace Weeks instead of Hardy. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

101 AB's (26 games) is considered a season? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eek.gif Actually his best season was in A ball in 2002 or AA in 2003. See for yourself.

Yes, I've already spoken to this, too. Hall (SS) and Helms/Branyan/Cirillo (3B) looks better than any combo that has Hardy at SS and 3/4 of the Hall/Helms/Branyan/Cirillo group on the bench.

You actually think Hardy is a better ballplayer than Weeks, too? Oh, my! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eek.gif

What's our alternative at 2B right now? Weeks has shown at every level of the minors he can hit, also! Weeks has power and speed, also ... something Hardy can hardly lay claim to. Hardy didn't prove anything at AAA. Gimme' a break!

I have been reading it all day. Hall > Hardy with respect to speed, power, batting average, and defensive range. Hall = Hardy with respect to sure handedness (reflected in fielding percentage) Hardy > Hall in terms of finding greater favor with Brewer management.

What stats have you shown that show Hardy has been the better player than Hall this season? Hall's fielding percentage is better at SS. Hall has a better range rating by all acknowledged sources that rate range. Hall has a higher slugging percentage. It's not even close here. Hall has far more speed. Check the stolen bases for proof of this (let alone the range rating differences). All you have to go on are Hardy's offensive stats while playing maybe 65%-75% of the time since the All-Star break. We're talking barely over 150 AB's. I hope you and Ned are right ... if we insist on playing him ... if I were Hall, I wouldn't be a "happy camper" though and would be hoping to be traded this off-season. Hall is hitting .308 in September (.272 in August), by the way. Hardly would I say Hall has been a 1st half only wonder!

Good points. Those have been my main beefs this season. Why was he rushed to the MLB, especially coming of a shortened season in 2004 due to a serious injury? I don't care if a guy is a rookie or not. This is the MLB. Produce better than an/the alternative or sit! Hardy has not produced better than the alternative at SS. Thankfully for the Brewrers, Hardy has had some success post-All-Star break. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

I have seen no refutation. The closest thing I've seen is one person's post that questioned the range rating based on a range rating putting Helms as the 3rd baseman with the most range on the Brewers. Other than that, Hall's speed, slugging, range, and batting average all weigh heavily in favor of Hall over Hardy at SS. In an attempt to be agreeable with most here, I could see Hardy at SS and Hall at 3B since Hall is the better athlete and could make the adjustment to 3B better than Hardy. But that means we lose Branyan's power or Helms' much improved bat this season, also.

I don't deny that I have been crticial of Yost playing what I consider a subpar player in comparison to Hall or Branyan, certainly. Do you have anything to add besides citing that I have been questioning Yost's anointing of Hardy as starting SS in spite of batting average, slugging average, defensive range, speed considerations which all point to Hall as the just-earned starter?

Must have missed those posts that show Hardy's batting average being better, Hardy's speed/stolen bases being better, Hardy's defensive range being better, Hardy's power/slugging average being better, Hardy's fielding percentage being better, etc. It seems Hall has Hardy beat in all these categories. What's left ... other than "Hmmm.... I just like Hardy better ... he's a nice kid."

1. If you don't mean to attack me, then why mis-characterize me? 2. I like guys who perform well, and I am not crazy about guys that get 'anointed' and don't hold up their end of the deal. 3. It is apparent that Yost is ignoring statistics, selectively. I'm asking a legitimate question. Care to answer it? 4. I've ripped Hardy for good reason. He's been horrible up until the past month or so. He has been respectable during that period. I don't hate Hardy. I like Hardy as a person. He seems like a great guy. I've said that before in the JSOnline Forum, also, actually. That said, Bill Hall is a great guy, too. He's humble, but has greater speed, power, range and batting average. I guess I don't have to wonder why Hall doesn't get the benefit of the doubt while Hardy does, huh? I bring it up often because it is so dearly mystifying. And I like to see why people defend Hardy to such a degree as they do in the face of these obvious facts. It makes me wonder if that some of us root for the lighter skinned guy because he looks more like us than the other guy, sometime. Mind you, I am not accusing anybody in particular with respect to that because I don't know your heart and your predisposition to racism by any means. It just seems that there is something going on here that defies logic, though. 5. I have stated in the JSOnline Forum often. "Come on JJ, prove me wrong!" I want whoever plays to succeed, of course. I'm a Brewer fan more than I'm a Hall fan or a Hardy fan, etc.

I think the very same thing. Hardy's lack of quickness on the basepaths is a concern for me, also. Hall is leading the team in stolen bases, by contrast --- last I checked he was leading the team in that category, anyway. And I always think Hall looks kinda' "heavy." If he lost a few pounds, he would be even quicker, I bet.

Now, this does make some sense. The best response I've seen so far that defends Hardy to some extent. Hall and Hardy do play behind the same pitchers, nevertheless. Your analysis of the 3B position breakdown, in particular, does throw some water on this 'range rating' thing, though. Thanks. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hall plays behind the same pitchers that Hardy does, though, doesn't he?