paul253

As long as you don't count Capuano, Bush, Davis, Marcum, and Greinke that is totally true. I don't think he traded for Davis, did he? I thought he signed him as a free agent, both times. Marcum and Greinke were not "cost controlled". And Capuano and Bush only had like one or two impact seasons between the two of them. I think the best examples of Melvin trading for impact, cost controlled pitching would be Jose Cappellan and Zach Jackson. Unfortunately neither really worked out. I mentioned elsewhere that Melvin just doesn't seem interested in making a trade unless it helps now. Sexson, Lee, Overbay, Podesednik, Hardy....all of them had a decent amount of trade value but brought back mainly major league players. Other than maybe the Dan Kolb-Jose Capellan trade he has really yet to trade an established major league player for a high ceiling prospect. This is why I am very concerned that if he does decide to trade Greinke and/or Marcum he will insist on established major league players in return. When you do that you tend to settle for lower ceiling players. Milwaukee needs young, cost controlled impact players and Greinke is the perfect person to get one or two of them. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen.

The instant-refusal my "proposal" elicited is exactly what I was getting at Eh.....if Atlanta would turn it down then say Atlanta would turn it down. Don't say "that deal would be like...." and then enter some ridiculous trade idea that isn't nearly as fair as the other offer. I mean, Thornburg and Lucroy for Mike Napoli? Come on. Shawn Marcum is having a good season. He had a good season last season. He had a good 2010, and a good 2008. He is a good pitcher. And even though he is a free agent after this season he'd still be a pretty decent upgrade over Mike Minor. If Atlanta has payroll issues this might be a good deal to take because they wouldn't be on the hook for a huge salary next year. If they feel they have enough options for the rotation next season I can't seem them being all that worried about moving Minor. Pre-2011 was a long time ago. He put up an ERA over 4 last season and so far his ERA is over 6 this season. Surely that has taken some luster off of his BA prospect ranking from 2 years ago. I understand what you are saying about him and I am not saying that Atlanta should be giving up on him. But right now they are only half a game out of the wildcard spots and if they think Marcum can help them out they may take a chance on him. That being said. I don't think I'd trade Marcum straight-up for Minor. I say this because I think you offer Marcum the one year deal if you don't trade him. If he accepts, you have a #3 starter for next year in a year you are really going to be hurting for pitchers. Not the end of the world. If he declines, you get two picks and I think the value of the two picks is greater than the value of Mike Minor. As far a Pastornicky goes, he has never really hit for a high average other than one year. His slugging % has been pretty low outside of 2011 as well. He obviously steals a lot of bases and draws a lot of walks. I see his offensive potential as something like Scott Podsedniks. If he weren't a shortstop I wouldn't even consider trading for him. And again, I probably wouldn't do Pastornicky for Marcum straight up, though it would be nice to have a young, team controlled shortstop for a few years. That leaves Marcum for Minor AND Pastornicky. Maybe Atlanta wouldn't do it, but I bet if you throw in another player they would. Either a bullpen guy like Veras or a mid ceiling, low level prospect like Kentrail Davis or Nick Ramirez. Either way it's an idea to explore and I don't think it's as far fetched as you do.

That's like proposing the Brewers deal Thornburg and Lucroy for a rental of Mike Napoli or Melky Cabrera. No it's not, not even close. First of all, Minor's ERA is over 6. If Atlanta is serious about a playoff run there are going to need a major upgrade. Plus, it's not like they don't have a plethora of young pitching talent they can insert into the rotation next season if they don't re-sign Marcum. Second, while Pastornicky may have a decent amount of upside, I can't imagine it's anywhere close to what Thornburg's upside is. Thornburg has firmly established himself as a top 100 prospect, and I'd even go so far as to call him a top 50 prospect. He is more or less major league ready as well, though a few starts in AAA wouldn't kill him. And like Minor, Atlanta already has a replacement for Pastornicky in Andrelton Simmons. Atlanta would be wise to move Pastornicky now before his value starts to drop. I wouldn't trade Thornburg straight up for Melky Cabrera or Mike Napoli. I wouldn't trade Lucroy straight up for either of them either. And I certainly wouldn't trade them both for Cabrera or Napoli. You are certainly entitled to your opinion of the Marcum for Minor and Pastornicky deal. But your trade is not even remotely similar to the trade proposed by cvollbrecht.

Man does this guy hate Milwaukee or what? "OK, Baltimore fans. If you want one of the most beautiful parks in baseball to advance, the stadium so gorgeous and nostalgic it changed the entire sport and the park where Cal Ripken Jr. broke one of baseball's most cherished records, you'd better get out the vote. Because those Milwaukee fans are as well organized as any political machine." Essentially he is saying Camden Yards is better but if we are to enact justice and get Camden Yards to advance Baltimore's fan better vote because those evil Milwaukee fans are ready take over.

It reminds me of the Hardy/Escobar situation....just because a guy is supposedly big league ready doesn't mean we need to create room for him. We've missed the SS depth ever since Hardy was dealt. I think the major difference between this case and this Hardy/Escobar case is that when we traded Hardy we pretty much told Escobar the job was his and we didn't have then, and still don't have now, any depth behind him. In this case, even if we move Morgan, we still have two capable center fielders in Gomez and Aoki. It's not like Schafer is the center fielder no matter what. I'm concerned that Schafer is going to end up in the same boat Gamel and Green have. One time high profile prospects who were never really given a shot early on. If we don't plan on giving Schafer at least a chance to play everyday next season then maybe we should consider trading him. And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we trade him. I am suggesting we give him a shot to be the everyday center fielder next season. And that would involve moving Morgan.

With the way things look like they may turn out for the rotation next season (losing Greinke and Marcum and possibly Wolf) I think the Brewers would be wise to let Thornburg stick in the rotation to get his feet wet and move Estrada to the bullpen. Thornburg is a long term solution to the rotation. Estrada is not. So long as Thornburg is having a fair amount of success I'd much rather see him in the rotation than Estrada.

He did seem to miss his spots alot. I wonder how much of it was due to nerves. Overall though I thought he did ok. I'd have no problem giving him another start.

Yeah I see no reason not to give Greinke the money he wants. Let Wolf go. KRod is gone. I'd even consider trading Hart and his $10 milllion salary. My idea would be to move A-Ram to first and let Green play third. A lineup would be something like: 1) Aoki 2) Gomez/Schafer 3) Braun 4) Ramirez 5) Lucroy 6) Weeks 7) Green 8) SS Bench would consist of Gamel, Gomez/Schafer, Maldonado, and a couple of utility guys (Jack Wilson? Ryan Theriot? Maysonet?) The rotation would obviously start with Greinke and Gallardo. You'd have to fill in the final three with some combo of Fiers, Thornburg, Peralta, Estrada and Narveson. Or maybe a back end free agent like Maholm or Sanchez.

And they swept the Dodgers on the road where they had previously only lost a total of 5 games? Not to mention without the backend of our all-star pen blowing up, we could have easily swept the Royals and our starting pitching is pitching exceptionally well. o a 9 game streak in the first half of the season is going to make your decision? No I'm not making my decision based on 9 games. My decision has already mostly been made by the first 66 games of the year. After having seen them go .500 against four of the worst teams in all of baseball, I was thinking maybe if they had shown some life against some of the better teams and gained ground on the first place team I might be able to be talked off the ledge a bit. You, on the other hand, seem to be using one 4 game series as your evidence that they could be a magical team while failing to acknowledge that outside of that 4 game sweep they are 10 games under .500 And as far as this "all-star pen" blowing up. This isn't last year. I don't know what happened to them but they obviously aren't performing at the level they should be. Instead of taking it for what it is you just go back to what it could be. That is the attitude I was referring to. "Oh if Axford K-Rod, Weeks, Ramirez, and Morgan all start playing better we'll be fine". I like to focus less on what they are capable of doing and more on what they are actually doing. Yeah, and did the Cards "mortgage," their future last year with their trade deadline trades You are comparing apples to oranges. The Cards didn't hold onto valuable upcoming free agents with the insane idea of making the playoffs when they were 6 games under .500 and in 4th place. Nobody's saying trade Thornburg for a 1 year rental, so lets chill on the mortgaging of anything. Holding onto your best trade chip, someone that should bring back another team's top prospect at minimum, and then letting him walk for nothing more than 2 draft picks, all because you have some idea of them making a historical comeback (Colorado) or another team having a historical meltdown (Atlanta) qualifies as mortgaging your future in my opinion. But as long as bring up the name if not Thornburg who are you going to trade? Who is left? This isn't like last year where we needed to fix a few minor issues. Unless you plan on making a push for the playoffs with Cody Ransom at shortstop and a bullpen that can't get anyone out you are going to need some major upgrades. Trading Kentrail Davis or Mark Rogers isn't going to net you a whole lot. We're a team that can easily spend 110-115 next year so all we need is a SS and we were fine with Gonzalez. How can you say that? We are at about $100 million now, which even Mark A. acknowledged was kind of pushing the limit, and next year we can just automatically assume a 10 or 15 percent payroll increase? In a year when attendance will likely drop? I wouldn't be so sure about that. So we need a serviceable SS, and MAYBE a solid arm out of the pen. Not mortgaging the future. Really? That's all we need? A serviceable shortstop and this is a playoff team? I can at least understand where you are coming from but I don't feel as though you are being realistic. It'd be great if all of a sudden everyone turned things around and started playing as well as they can but it very rarely works that way. Rickie Weeks should be in the minors right now trying to remember how to hit. He looks absolutely lost. I don't see how you can just assume he'll turn it around. Ramirez and Morgan aren't playing at the level they can be. Axford and K-Rod look pedestrian out of the bullpen, a bullpen which by the way only 2 pitchers currently have an ERA under 4. And quite honestly Corey Hart and his .313 OBP could use an improvement as well. Plus, who knows what Lucroy will do after breaking his hand. It may have big affect on his hitting. This team is a lot more than one shortstop away from the playoffs. But again, even assuming you can find a decent shortstop on the trade market, who are you going to give up for him?

Wow HiandTight I have to give you credit. You are really look at the bright side of things. I'm really worried Doug and Mark are going to view things the same way you are. If they lose today, they'll have just gone .500 against four of the worst teams in baseball. Maybe if they win today and then go 6-3 against Toronto, Chicago and Cincinnati I'll be a little more hopeful but nothing they have done this season leads to believe they are a playoff team. And even if they somehow sneak into that second wildcard spot, does it really mean anything? I would like to think after an NLCS appearance last season that a mere playoff spot isn't what we are shooting for anymore. I'd prefer not to mortgage our future by hanging onto Greinke, Marcum, Hart, and others just to lose a one game "playoff". This team has a ton of holes they need to fill next season and unless they play on resigning Greinke and Marcum, and all indications are they don't, then they should try to shore up the future of the franchise by trading them away. They still have a HUGE hole a shortstop to fill next year. Plus they'll probably have at least 2 and up to 4 rotation spots to fill. There is a chance that this team could be an awful team for the next few years if something isn't done to drastically upgrade the talent level in the system. Trading away Greinke and Marcum is the quickest and easiest way to do that. As far as the original topic with Morgan. I've advocated trading him as well but the fact is a) you're not going to get anything for him and b) even if they do bring up Schafer Roenecke won't play him (I'm already having fears about Schafer's career going to same way as Gamel and Green's in that the Brewers never bother to make a spot for him while he rots away in the minors or on the bench). You may as well keep Morgan and hope he can increase his a value a bit and then trade him either at the deadline or in the off-season. But either way, I see no reason for him to be on the roster next season.

So why not keep the momentum with Fiers, who might very well have a future as a #5 starter in this rotation anyway, get Estrada in the pen, and get rid of one of the back end of the bullpen arms? You're forgetting one important thing. Estrada has more service time than Fiers. That automatically makes him the better choice.

Maybe Melvin isn't the lazy and delusional GM some seem to make him out to be around here. I don't think it's that people think he is lazy or delusional, it just seems like almost all of his trades have been about improving the team immediately, even if he could have maybe gotten higher ceiling prospects instead. Yeah they've got the occasional prospect (De La Rosa, Zach Jackson, Capellan) but two of those three also included major league talent. He doesn't seem to like trading major league talent (especially talent that should net a decent return) for only prospects.

Seems kind of crappy that a player loses an option year when he's hurt the entire season.

I was worried they'd be too stubborn about selling, so I consider it a good sign that they're at least preparing for the possibility And I am glad that they are looking at prospects and not expensive vets 2 years away from free agency.

For what he'd cost I think I'd rather just go with a Gomez/Schafer platoon. No sense in paying him $7 or $8 million when we already have 4 players who can play center field.

I certainly love what he has done, but he still has not hit an XBH and he is striking out about once per game. On the flip side he's also walked 6 times in 7 games. I think maybe moving him down to WI would be fine but I don't want to put at Helena just for the sake of putting him at Helena. If he can handle A ball at 19 it would get him notice.

I'd even be willing put Gallardo up, with the expectation that we only get a major league ready #1-#2 potential pitcher AND more. I'd trade him for Jacob Turner and Nick Castellanos, for instance. With his talent plus his contract a team would have to pay a ton to get him. But as another poster mentioned Latos brought back 2 really good major league ready prospect and an arm to put in the rotation. If we can get that for Gallardo I may do it.

extending Hart, etc I'm not sure I'd call this a great move. As I recall, Atlanta was really hot after Hart the season before Melvin extended him and was offering pitching in return. I may be remembering this wrong but I thought I heard they were offering Beachy but we insisted on Minor. If that is the case turning down that trade may have been Melvin's biggest mistake because of all the trades it eventually led too. If we had Beachy we probably wouldn't have traded for both Marcum and Greinke, meaning we'd still have Lawrie, Odorizzi, Escobar, and/or Cain. Plus of course Beachy has quietly blossomed into one of the best pitchers in the NL I also think the Aramis Ramirez signing is going to go down as a terrible move. Giving that much money to someone who is that old, over three years no less, was a huge mistake in my opinion.

Reed is actually holding his own in BC right now. Any chance he stays up there for awhile to afford more playing to other players in AZ or Helena?

I'd like to see Greinke moved at the all star break. A rotation of Gallardo, Wolf, Fiers, Estrada and Marcum would be painful but it's a necessary move until our other arms are ready. I also think you move Thornburg and Nelson up to Nashville and Huntsville respectively.....soon. I'd also explore a trade of Marcum. If you can't get a decent return for him I say you keep him, offer him the one year at the end of the season and hope he turns it down so you can get two draft picks. Finally, I'd really like to see them move Hart. Aoki can handle right field and hopefully next season Gindl claims the position with Aoki replacing Morgan in center. But no, this team is not a playoff contender and the sooner Mark and Doug realize that the better.

I am the only one thinking people are severely underestimating Greinke's value? He is 7-2 with a sub 3 era and 89ks in 79 innings. Of his 13 starts, 10 have been quality starts (would have been 11 if he could have lasted 2/3 of an inning longer in another start). I realize that the team who trades for him won't get picks but really if they are trading for Greinke they are doing so because they feel they can win the World Series. Is not getting two draft picks really going to reduce his value all that much? Look at what we gave up for half a season of Sabathia. Our top prospect, a top 10 prospect AND two pitchers. I think we can get a legitimate #1-#2 potential pitching prospect or a potential future all star position player prospect. I think the value will be much higher than a mid-late first round pick and a supplemental round pick.

I'm starting to get really nervous about the future of this team. I have to be careful to make I say this correctly so the entire board doesn't jump on me, so here goes: This team is not a playoff team. They just aren't. Almost 40% of the season is over and we've got the 5th worst record in the league. They have the 4th worst team ERA in the league and the 3rd worst team BA in the league. But they are only 5.5 games out of first. I almost wish a team like Cincy or Pitt would take off so Mark and Doug would get the idea out of their head that they can compete for the division. If they are only 4 or 5 games out at the deadline with this roster, they'd either have to be buyers or at the very least stand pat. They can't be serious contenders with Weeks hitting .160 and Cody Ransom playing shortstop every day. So they'd have to upgrade the SS position and probably strengthen the bench some. That means trading away even more prospects. Who do you trade? Schafer? Gindl? Khris Davis? Hunter Morris? No thanks. If they stand pat they lose the best trading chip they've had in years (Greinke) plus at least one other guy they should be able to get a decent return for (Marcum). While the system is improved, it still has a ways to go. Trading these two could really help the future of the franchise. So while I'm not exactly cheering for them to lose, I almost kind of wish someone else would take command of the division so the front office can focus on the future instead of trading away even more in a last ditch effort to make the playoffs.

With the Crew only 4.5 games out of first; this thread should be temporarily shelved. Way to close for the Brewers to consider shopping anybody. I understand what you are saying, but I just get kind of annoyed by responses like this. This thread isn't about whether or not they should sell. It's about who they should trade and what they should get back IF they do decide to sell. I don't think anyone is suggesting they sell if they are only 4 games out of first place. That being said, even in a weak division this does not look like a playoff team to me. And series wins against the Cubs and Padres don't change my mind ...then they can pound sand. IF, and that's a big if, I'd be willing to trade Greinke, you had better believe that the other team's number one prospect is the starting point. Why help Texas out by taking secondary prospects and/or fringe major leaguers? Olt is probably the Ranger's second best prospect right now. He's hitting .306 with a OBP over .400 and 19 home runs in AA. Plus he plays a position where we don't really have any legit prospects anymore (especially with Taylor Green looking like he'll never get a shot to be a full time third basemen). There certainly may be other factors why we'd pass on him but just because he's not technically ranked #1 in the Rangers system doesn't mean we shouldn't take him. Why would the Brewers trade him to the Tigers? At this point they have the same record as the Brewers, and are further out of the playoffs I guess my response would be some teams are more aggressive than others. Detroit paid a bundle for Fielder and if they can get a legitimate ace for one or two prospects they may do it. Detroit is in the bottom third of team ERA and could certainly use an upgrade. Two of their starters have ERA's over 5.00.

If Texas is looking to buy but won't give up Profar what about Mike Olt? The guy is tearing up AA. We could let him sit in Huntsville the rest of the year then move him up to Nashville next year with the idea of him being a full time player by 2014 (yes we'd have to trade Ramirez). Or we could let Olt move up when he is ready and shift Ramirez to first when he is ready.

It's been awhile since awhile since I've been this excited about Helena. I'm really looking forward to following McFarland and Lopez.