MNBrew

As much as I'm confounded my Marcum's total collapse his last 7 starts, we don't win the division and may not make the postseason if we have 2 of Narveson, Estrada, Capuano, Rogers, Peralta, or Rivas filling out the #4-5 spots in the rotation. Would you rather have just not gotten to the playoffs? Marcum's collapse raises plenty of questions going forward in terms of what kind of pitcher he really is, but there's still no doubt in my mind that that trade was an outstanding one by Melvin. That deal & keeping Fielder set up the Greinke trade (remember, Greinke had to drop Milwaukee from his no-trade list for the deal to happen, which he did upon looking at the Brewers -- including Marcum & Fielder -- more closely). No Marcum & no Greinke means we're looking at another season like 2010 out of our rotation all over again -- might as well just go re-sign Braden Looper & pray Jarrod Washburn has something left in his tank, too! And there's no way we're set up well for the future just b/c we still have Lawrie. Yeah, we coulda hit like gangbusters, but without good pitching, we don't come close to sniffing the playoffs. While the offense wasn't good for most of the NLCS, the difference in the NLCS was that our pitching totally slumped and we were forced to play catch up all series long. For 2 games it worked, but for 4 games it didn't and now we're at home. We've all got every reason to be extremely frustrated w/ Marcum's collapse. But to suggest this was a lousy trade is wishful revisionist thinking b/c no Marcum, no playoffs.

If Gomez or Plush is out there they get to that blooper with ease and the Molina DP ball ends the inning with St. Louis up 1-0, Hart wouldn't even have been able to butcher the Freese fly ball because the inning would already have ended. I kept thinking of that after I posted the comment. Point taken. Still, look, I was never saying playing Kotsay in CF was a good decision. The inning may have turned out quite differently with either speedy guy in CF and Kotsay in RF. But the way Gallardo was pitching, I still think nothing was a given, especially since he was having the worst time hitting locations that a) were in the strike zone and b) not where the sickly hot Cardinals hitters could keep pounding the ball. (side note: That was a great pitch that Pujols hit the double on in the 1st. Albert's hotter than blazes and most mortals don't make good contact on that pitch, let alone hit it hard, and even more so pulling it for a ground rule double to left center. Pujols won't do much other than foul that pitch off most of the time. But right now he's on an incredible tear. . . . . That 2B reminded me an awful lot of a low-outside fastball I watched Jaha mash for a HR to left center at the Metrodome about 10 rows below my seats. That was amazing.)

If we watched every game as closely & with as much scrutiny as we watch the Brewers, TLB, we'd all find about every other manager equally "inept" or "idiotic" (quotation marks to denote stated opinions by others, not me) based on the same accusations that are tossed out here on Roenicke. The crappy play in the 4 playoff losses to date is rife with so much blame to go toward almost all the Brewers who've taken the field in these games. Roenicke's the easy target, but he's not the problem. You can blame Kotsay's slower speed for the dropped ball & baserunning out. But Roenicke played him for his bat, which hit the solo HR and got 2 walks. Despite his missed plays, Kotsay's overall play tonight still did more to give the Brewers a chance to win than most anyone else in the lineup did. If Roenicke puts Kotsay in RF, he doesn't come close to making the play Hart should've made but didn't. Which field he played in still was almost immaterial. On a side note, I do see Braun's lack of running in most of the recent games as a concession by Roenicke toward not making unnecessary outs on the bases (Braun & Gomez w/ SBs in Gm 4 vs. AZ, & Gomez w/ the SB prior to Nyjer's GW hit in Gm 5 are the ONLY SB attempts in 8 playoff games thus far). No one seems to be talking about that adjustment to the playoffs. Roenicke doesn't have some of the tools at his disposal that he's had most of the year, so he's stuck trying to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation offensively. And when the offense isn't clicking (like this), AND the pitchers keep digging bad holes, Roenicke's even more limited in his options.

Kottaras hasn't done crud lately. Green isn't the savior, either, but sure would've put up a better at-bat against those upper-90s pitches than George the Windmill.

I wonder about a few of his decisions, but this relentless venom & hyper-criticism that's so constantly directed toward Roenicke by so many folks in this thread strikes me as beyond rational. Heck, I think that if we were to actually turn it around & win the World Series, so many of you guys would still be convinced he's inept and that they'd've won the World Series in spite of him. I like the guy, but I'm not an apologist. What I can't get away from, in the big picture, is this: The team slump isn't Roenicke's fault. The team's confident as a whole and knows what to do. They're just not doing it. Right now no one's doing much good beyond Braun, Hairston, & Betancourt, and they're still going to make outs half of the time. Heck, Kotsay gets 2 walks and a solo HR and he's still the root of all evil. Morgan's hitting lousy lately and Gomez can't hit righties, plus Kotsay has good numbers against Carpenter. Yeah, he came up short on that ball in CF in the 1st, but Hart's was, in my mind, by far the more egregious missed play. Plain & simple, momentum's contagious and the Brewers have NONE of it right now. Very little's been going right in their losses -- even tonight, they're finally playing a close one and they can't even get on base by accident in the last 4 innings. That's Roenicke's fault? Fielder can't hit on the road in the playoffs -- nice consecutive GIDP's Mr. "I'm Going Where the Most Money Is!!!" Weeks and Hart can't hit for crap no matter where the game is. Lucroy forgot that he was a .280 hitter for much of the year, but Kottaras has done little since his cycle against MLB's most horrible team. Morgan forgot he was a .320 hitter most of the year and still finished over .300. Heck, I'm convinced Roenicke could've jiggled half the lineup and ultimately it wouldn't have affected the outcome because the team's just not playing well enough -- that blame lies squarely on the players, just as the Cardinals' hot play is a result of the players doing well, NOT LaRussa being a superb manager. Would a lineup of Gomez or Morgan in CF (for Kotsay), Kotsay in RF (for Hart), and Green at 2B (for Weeks) really going to have much better of a chance? Or Hairston in CF, Morgan or Gomez in RF, McGehee at 3B, and Green at 2B? Or Hairston at 3B, Hairston at 2B, Hairston in CF, and Hairston in RF. . . . etc.? After reading this thread and many IGTs along the way, if Roenicke had made changes like these and they hadn't produced any better results, I'm still convinced many posters would still find other ways & reasons to place the blame on Roenicke. The Brewers are playing like they're relying on absolutely perfect plays to have even a chance, both on offense & defense. The Brewers, in their losses and therefore especially again in these past two games, are pretty much only getting walks & singles -- practically zero extra base power. It gets tedious, and they're not delivering in the very few chances they have (nice 1st swing DPs both games against Lynn, Mr. Weeks -- talk about a criminally stupid approach!!!!) The Cards, by contrast, are racking up consecutive extra base hits constantly & getting "crooked number" innings, and are getting the Brewers to strike out in clutch situations, or ground out to 3B or SS (about 50 times a game based on how regularly it's been happening), or pop up lamely. That's Roenicke's fault? Sorry, but I can't buy it. Edit: p.s. to my rant above: Marcum's lousy outings, Wolf's lousy AZ game, Greinke's lousy outings (thank goodness for the run support), and now Gallardo finally takes his turn digging a hole the team couldn't get out of. This was one of the best rotations the Brewers could ever have hoped to have this year, and they're caving in the playoffs. If all the starters consistently pitchers pitch just somewhat respectably, this is a different series. But they're mostly pitching like garbage and the offense, which hasn't been running hot, ends up with oodles more pressure. As I mentioned many times above, the starters' lousy outings aren't are THEIR faults, not Roenicke's.

I get the age thing, and that's not what I'm arguing. There are myriad variables that can factor into the equation between A-ball & the bigs. Way too many "sure thing" prospects in A-ball don't pan out for me to want to see the Brewers put Marcum-caliber eggs solely into that kind of basket (to kinda twist a cliche). What I'm also saying is that I don't want a 2-3 years hence type of prospect for that caliber of player if that's all we'd be getting in return, and in this case, the organization's most glaring need is SS, so I'd much rather see top assets moved to fill that need, not for someone who may more likely end up a corner OF.

In the name of Angel Salome and the nearly-.400-hitting catcher so loved on this board 5 years ago before he broke his leg or whatever then had subsequent performance & character issues, I can't put that much stake in a prospect's promise if he's only gotten to A-ball. And if we're trading any in-his-prime, above-average #2/3 starter for a prospect, the prospect had better be pretty much MLB-ready. Trading for an A-ball prospect has to be darn near a total crapshoot. (Late Edit: Lou Palmisano is the guy above whose name I couldn't remember when I originally wrote this.)

Marcum & Wolf have had Suppan-like outings. Let's remember how to hit the ball, drive it rather than pop up everything, and finally get an ace-like start -- and tonight would be better than Friday, but the hitters have been pretty well shut down the past 3 innings. Come on!!!

I'd been thinking this and finally read it, from Tom Haudricourt, written on Twitter just after the grand slam tonight: "For whatever reason, Marcum just hasn't been the same pitcher the last few weeks. Lower velocity. Worse command. Almost as if he's hurting." Marcum's always around the plate. Tonight he was either not close, constantly nibbling (and doing so very poorly), or extremely hittable. TH might be onto something.

Yount was offered many chances to come back to coach and he finally did. Molly was offered many chances and always declined. In hindsight, it may have been more about Molly's at-the-time life circumstances than about Brewers bridges burned by Bando. Molitor remarried sometime near his HOF induction, has a younger child, and is living in the Twin Cities with his family. He did a great job coaching with the Twins and they REALLY wanted him to stay on, but his "updated" family situation was the impetus in his decision to step away from coaching. He easily could've even become the manager had the Twins had any legit reason to fire Gardy (which, justifiably, they don't). His present gig with the Twins I'm sure allows him the flexibility to be a father to this child in a way he perhaps wasn't able to be to Blair -- and a husband the way he wasn't (eventually, anyway) to Linda. The Brewers approached Molitor MANY times after his playing career about returning to Milwaukee to coach, maybe even manage, but he chose not to, usually saying (I think) that the timing wasn't right. After some of the stories of his personal life surfaced around his HOF induction time, that turbulence in that time of his life would seem to offer decent reasoning for why he felt the need to keep himself out of a long-term on-field commitment to any team. Molly was clearly the better player after '92 but was offered a $1M contract -- a cut from the $3M+ he made in '92 ("only a DH," right Sal?) -- whereas Yount was obviously declining but was offered a small raise. Molly had several productive years remaining, whereas in '93 Yount's bat speed was so lousy that I think he fouled about 6 balls to left all year. It's too bad Molitor was treated the way he was by Bando b/c Molly was just as ready to be a lifetime Brewer as Yount was. Thanks to Bando's decision making, we lost out on many more great years of Molitor, not only as a player, but also as an organization member thereafter.

I love how AZ pulls off one of the most miraculous comebacks ever and ESPN's baseball main front page spot is a pic of the Red Sox and an article about them hanging together as a team (or whatever the nonsense is). That's just gross!

I can see where Roenicke made some questionable choices, but fondy's right: The Pirates' pitchers kept trying to give the game away and Brewer after Brewer failed in countless golden chances to put the Brewers ahead. Again, thankfully, it's a push all around. Gotta forget today and go get 'em tomorrow.

whew. no blood. many large opportunities missed on the Brewers' part, but everyone ends the day where they started. could've turned out much worse.

I'd think Cuddyer's preference is to remain a Twin, and I think they're more likely to re-sign him than Jason Kubel. I like Cuddyer a lot, but I'd think the odds of him being a Brewer next year are on the slim side. I still think that if Prince isn't back (I'd rather see him return, however slim those odds may be), the 2 corners will be covered by a combination of McGehee, Green, & Gamel, all of whom I'd foresee being on the roster. Perhaps not the ultimate combination, but SS is definitely the one position where a major upgrade is needed and no realistic internal options exist. McGehee's in another stretch where he sure can't seem to do much right, but one thing does stand out to me in particular: For as good as he was last year, start to finish (by and large), I remember that he struggled throughout spring training this year and other than a bit of April & a stretch of July/August, he's really never gotten fully on track. . . . I have no proof of what I'm about to say, just wondering out loud, but I wonder if he didn't get a little complacent last offseason, pay the price for it in spring training, start pressing as long-term contract discussions were going on (which only made things worse), and then the season started with him never really getting going at the plate. . . . . Again, I've heard nothing at all to prove that "pocket hunch," but I can't help think that Casey will bust his tail this offseason to make sure next year is a much better year -- partly out of professionalism & pride, but also partly due to having not one but two guys who will come into ST with a better chance than ever to beat him out for a starting job. ....The upshot of all this being that I still think it'll be McGehee or Gamel starting at 1B next year.

Yeah, that one and the original rainbow-esque Tampa Bay logo. As a Florida native whose "prime" teenage years were in the days when MTV only played music videos (thus the name of the network), I had 2 other reactions to that ridiculous design & putrid color scheme: 1. They should be called the Miami Vice or the Miami Don Johnsons and work a little pink into it, too. And.... 2. The color scheme was designed to sell well with entire lines of pastel golf shirts worn by affluent retirees of both genders at private Florida golf courses. In other words, the logo & color scheme don't seem to have any roots in baseball, only trendy marketing which will be dated, vomited over, and otherwise totally passe´ in no time flat (see: D-backs, turquoise/copper/purple; Devil Rays, purple/rainbow; Mets, black). (Side note: Because so many teams have adopted red into their color schemes, and because it would've looked more distinctive & still classy, I wished at the time & feel all the more strongly now that AZ would've left purple as their main color, which, with the present design, would look both cool & more unique than the red that's so prevalent these days.)

I think it's partly that people know that Wolf isn't as good as his results would indicate. Certainly he's had a great year for us, but often performance and the result of said performance don't always match up. Wolf's an average-ish pitcher having one of his better seasons, and I don't think too many people are going to expect the same results from him going forward. LOTS of folks on this board were saying the same thing about Wolf after his great 2nd half last year, but look how he's done this year. Look at what the guy's done over the past 3 years. Take out the 1st half of last year (I know you can't, but still...) and that's an extremely solid 2.5 years. I'm not about to say Wolf's a lock to be this good again next year. But I think it's pretty safe to say that this 3-year run on his part isn't a fluke and I wouldn't be at all shocked if his success continues at a similar rate next year.

I like Casey McGehee a lot, but his past 3-4 weeks of regression (again) is just too much. I like him being part of this team going forward, but I'm sure glad we have both Green (the savior) and Gamel (the thick-headed one) as well as Casey for the corner IF spots next year. ...And I'm sure glad at this point that McGehee didn't accept the Brewers' long-term contract offer. At least now Casey has a whole lot more to prove going forward.

I know we'll come out of this offensive slump, just as we have earlier in the season. I just hope it's before next season. I hate it when a walk or a single feels like our best chance at a rally -- and that's all the offense we must for a 3-inning stretch. These guys just have forgotten how to relax & put together good, easy at-bats. I commented about the lack of multi-run innings in another thread not that long ago. I was hoping it'd be a commentary on the past, not anything prophetic.

Can only follow on Gameday, but that sure had the look of the type of at-bat this team's mostly forgotten how to have the past couple weeks. Way to go, Braunie!!!! Now back to trumpet practice (which, in essence, means getting back to work).

Logan, are you saying you think it's Don Money's fault that Gamel's not in the bigs? It's been rather obvious over the past 3-4 years that Gamel can hit a ton, but also that he's stubborn and immature. Whether he gets along with Don Money or not is completely immaterial. Gamel's been told what he needs to do to get to the bigs and he's not doing enough of it. Mat Gamel controls his actions & attitudes, not anyone else, and only Gamel is responsible for himself and his choices. Your point everywhere on page 2 of this thread come across as that it must be Don Money's fault. Your viewpoint sounds much like the kid in school whose job it is to study well and earn A's, but who chooses to screw around and not to work because he doesn't like the teacher, then blames the teacher for the crappy grades which to everyone else on the planet he clearly & deservedly earned because he didn't do what he actually had to do.

I completely agree and if the White Sox are looking for a pitcher this offseason I wouldn't even think twice about trading Marcum for Escobar. We're all entitled to our opinions (and no, I'm not criticizing yours...), but I do trust Doug Melvin's on these notions a whole lot more than any of ours including my own. If he agrees with some of the criticisms of Marcum in this thread, I'm sure he'll be pulling off some awesome deal that surprises most of us in the same way he did when he acquired Marcum from Toronto in the first place. . . . And if Marcum remains a Brewer going into next year, I'm going to be glad.

After the insanely good run, a little run of sub-par was bound to occur. The Cardinals sweep was countered by the Astros sweep. But the 3 games since against the Cardinals & 2 so far against Phillies -- mostly all against Cy Young-caliber starters -- have certainly raised a bit of concern. What we do know, though, is this: Our hitters, though outside of Braun & Prince & probably Nyjer not as consistent as we'd like, aren't as bad as they've been the past 11 games (outside of the Astros series) AND our starters are generally better than they've pitched in the same stretch, too. We've been playing from behind almost constantly, not getting big innings or multiple clutch hits, and YB & Casey are showing more of their first-half form than post-ASB. The reality's probably somewhere in the middle, which should be enough to take care of business between now & season's end. Taking NOTHING for granted, at least the mini-slump started w/ a 10-game lead rather than a 2-game lead. After the Philly series, the schedule at least holds some more reasons for optimism. That said, I'd still feel much better about our play & our chances if we could turn around and rather soundly take the last 2 games of this series.

After watching the Brewers get shut down by top-end pitchers for most of the past week & especially the past 4 games, I'm all the more convinced, as I've been saying, that the key to the Brewers' ongoing success is having as many studs in the rotation as possible. Greinke, Marcum, & Yo have to be part of that core. I'm okay w/ Wolf as a #4 for another year but Narveson wouldn't be good enough to be the Phillies' #5 starter so he's the last guy I think we should be content w/ having in the rotation. Really, the improvement isn't so much needed at the top of our rotation as it is around the #5 spot. At the end of the day, you still have to boost your pitching talent where you can. It'd be tough to realistically upgrade our #1-3 starters. What makes the Phillies so terrifyingly dangerous? It's not so much their hitting -- granted, Utley & Rollins lead their list of starters who've lost major time, but only Pence, Victorino, Mayberry, & Howard have OPSs >.800. Really, it starts & ends with the rotation of Halladay, Lee, Hamels, & Oswalt/Worley/Kendrick...and the fact that 4 of those 6 have solidly sub-3.00 ERAs. When your pitchers are that good, you don't have to have a Yankee-esque lineup of All-Stars at every position (though it helps you a lot if you have that, too). Plain & simple, the Brewers have to have a dominant rotation to have a chance. Trading a starter like Marcum represents a major step in the wrong direction UNLESS you get someone in return who can step in and immediately improve on Marcum's performance level. I'd rather put Narveson & either McGehee or Gamel into a deal to land a better starter than Narveson or Wolf than see the Brewers come anywhere close to trading Marcum.

I also hate this option. Much as there may be some doubts about the Brewers' drafting since Jack Z. left, much of his era draft-wise doesn't look good at all for pitchers. I still think the first thing you do w/ a #1-#2 type of starter at his age & w/ his performance record is extend him. Starting pitching has made the biggest difference in the Brewers' season vs. the past few. Why would anyone look to trade Marcum for young prospects who may or may not pan out when the only real position we lack a half-decent prospect in the upper levels is SS and you can get plenty of different mid-range SS's for very reasonable prices? If you look to trade Marcum for a potential future upper-end starter, you're still only hoping to get in that player what you already know you have in Marcum.

Rawbecht, I'm with you on both points. To elaborate on your last sentence, I'll posit that while Marcum isn't Maddux, he's sure much closer to Maddux than he is to Suppan. Given the pitcher that he is, a solid & reasonable 3-4 year extension makes good sense to me.