MNBrew

The fact that Green's up & Gamel's not would seem to indicate that the front office has pretty high regard for Green. I wonder if they're souring on Gamel, or if they're just keeping him in AAA 'til their season ends today because he hasn't done so great in limited-PT opportunities in the bigs, and playing everyday 'til the end of the AAA season might be better for him in the long run. As we've learned before, I think, it's probably better not to make final-ish decisions (a.k.a., rule out) any of our top-hitting prospects this early in regards to next season.

Your presumption of my tone and my frame of mind are just that - presumptions - and on both counts you're incorrect. However, especially given your accusation, I find it interesting that the words you've chosen can easily be taken in the exact same way. I don't have time to dig through close to two months' worth of JSOnline articles, blogs, & chats to find the quotes, but I can safely say I read statements by TH in at least two places that made it pretty clear that the two PTBNL going to the Mets would not be "players of consequence" (my paraphrase). For as thoroughly well-read & aware that so many posters are on this site, I found it odd (a combination of both "humorous" and "frustrating") to keep seeing posts about folks' fears that Green, McClendon, etc. were the types of players going to the Mets when it seemed pretty clear that the Mets were going to get minor league "roster fillers" -- which Rosario & Herrera pretty much are, and which Green, McClendon, etc. are not.

Ryan Braun? :-)

I was thinking the past several days about the Brewers' SS position for 2012. I'm not big on knowing other teams' minor leaguers, but I wondered about someone unspectacular at the plate but solid (Brendan Ryan came first to mind) and about a great hitter whose future with his present team has previous been tenuous (specifically Michael Young, a career SS until a couple years ago and still only 34). . . . . If the Brewers REALLY felt Peralta or Fiers (or maybe even Estrada) could become their #5 starter, would a Wolf-for-Young deal with the Rangers be feasible?

Very cool night. Way to go, GK.

Folks on this site tend to get cynical about Melvin's moves at times (even the ones that are top-notch) until they prove to be beyond most debate (granted, there have been a few questionable ones along the way). But I think his track record is good enough (as will be the gradually improved "outside" perception of the Brewers' farm system and prospects therein) that I think Melvin would pretty solidly be able to get the Brewers through 2012 as high-level contenders AND also position them very well for 2013 and beyond. It sounds simplistic & idealistic to put it this way, but I have great faith in the guy's ability to do the right thing.

I see Marcum as a starter the likes of which you build a rotation around. To me, keeping him, Greinke, & Gallardo is paramount. To "play ball" with the topic of the thread, Marcum cost us our very best position prospect. I'd expect nothing less than that value in return, esp. given the year he's having. Nate82, I don't get why you think the team has to be blown up. Those are each intriguing moves but highly idealistic (though I suppose that's the point) and also highly likely not to have them all pan out. . . . And no way is Narveson a #3 starter, so I can't buy that angle at all. . . . .I just don't see how you could justify that kind of roster blow-up the year after being a serious pennant contender AND filling the ballpark w/ over 3 million fans. You'd have more fan revolt than buy-in, I'd think. When having studs in the rotation has made the biggest difference for the team, I don't see how you trade away half of the good veteran starters the Brewers have.

If the gold jerseys become a real, official, lasting thing, I think the MB logo in the navy/gold color scheme would make a nice alternate cap to go with it. . . . or as a right-sleeve patch while keeping the official caps as-is.

While I think Fiers & Gindl are possibly rather big parts of the Brewers' future, I'd be at least a little surprised if they're called up since neither is on the 40-man. Kintzler's still on the 15-day DL rather than the 60-day, so moving him to the 60-day would open one spot, but I'm not seeing two yet. Regarding guys on the 40-man, I'd think Gamel's a given to come up along with Dillard. The team has so many middle IFs that I don't see Farris getting the call. I like DiFelice a lot but that would surprise me a lot. McClendon's been good in the bigs before ('10 & this year) and again in AAA, so I'm surprised he's not been given more chances. I could see the logic of Peralta, also, if they wanted another pitcher.

I find it both humorous & frustrating that Haudricourt mentioned at least a couple times in very clear terms that the players the Mets would be getting were not prospects: humorous, in that people chose to either ignore him or disbelieve him; and frustrating, for the exact same reasons. I read again & again countless posters so obsessed either with their own viewpoint (or even possibly blinded by biases against Melvin or Haudricourt???) or just a pressing fear that we'd lose Taylor Green, Fiers, McClendon, or some other players of real use to the Brewers & their organization that they ignored reporting by TH which was basically as much as he could say without actually saying that it wasn't going to be any minor leaguers of real value. Anyway, kudos to Melvin all the more for this trade! How wonderful, both to pull off a deal this beneficial to the Brewers and to pull off a deal that makes the Mets look poorly run once again.

I think your viewpoint on sales is a pure guess that reflects your preference. I beg to differ on the popularity of the current logo. . . . I've been a hardcore fan since summer of 1980 and now live 350 miles away from Miller Park. A couple weeks ago I made it to my first game in MIL since '08. There was plenty of ball-glove era logo attire, but I sure saw a whole lot more fans wearing the current colors. There were plenty of player t-shirts, but that was hardly a majority of what I saw. I love the ball-glove logo and still believe it's the most ingenious logos ever. But I think the current logo (it's a barley sprig, not wheat, by the way) is both timeless and much more "now," as well as being downright classy. I like the old logo being in the mix, but I still think it works better as a secondary or alternate logo. I'd also prefer that if it remains "in the mix" in the years ahead that it transform into the current color scheme -- which is what I was hoping would've been part of the big "new uniform" unveiling 4-5 years ago when what came out instead was the disappointing "Retro Sunday" theme & uniform design.

This is almost a textbook specious argument. . . . We would be better off retiring RBI from the record books than allowing RBI to be used in this kind of deceptive fashion. To emphasize that McGehee had more RBI than Fielder suggests that McGehee was, in some meaningful sense, better than Fielder, which proves the weakness of RBI as a stat if anything does. Prince Fielder, of course, has hit rings around Casey McGehee for the entirety of both men's careers. The irony is that McGehee wouldn't have gotten his flashy RBI numbers, even hitting fifth, if Prince Fielder wasn't putting up a .400 OBP in front of him. Two things: 1. On the above, Prince's OBP last year was fantastic, but one significant reason McGehee had so many more RBI than Fielder was that Prince's BA/RISP wasn't very good. Casey did decently in that regard, in part because Prince didn't drive in as many of the guys on base ahead of him, instead often walking to get on-base himself. . . . Granted, that was more of a one-year phenomenon for Prince, but nonetheless, it's a significant reason his RBIs dropped so greatly from the year before. 2. On why Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hardy, Hart (to a lesser extent), etc., were "handed" spots compared to, most recently, Taylor Green's situation, those guys were A+ prospects from Day 1, top-10 picks in the whole draft, and the guys around whom Melvin was building the whole franchise. There weren't lots of other "cornerstone" vets on the team outside of Ben Sheets. While the team was "on the rise" then, they still had to grow into a team that could achieve a .500 record, let alone consistently. . . . I still think Green deserves his chance. But my point is that being a top playoff contender, a near-tops-in-all-of-MLB team, is a whole different situation than when Prince, Rickie, Ryan, & Co. first came up, and consequently, chances for rookies may well get handled differently. As such, since the Brewers have yet to make the post-season, let alone win a playoff series, I do see this as being rather early to get antsy at Melvin re: handling Taylor Green in the way he has. (I also see the suggestion that Roenicke doesn't fully see what Melvin does re: Green as being ludicrous. Those guys talk extensively all the time. Roenicke's not blind. And he's doing quite a lot right, as evidenced by the Brewers being only 1 of 4 80-win teams in the bigs going into today's games.)

Thank you, BSCR. I've kept thinking of the Randy Myers scenario each time I've caught up on this thread, but I hadn't gotten to typing it yet. THAT is why you don't just puts claims on just about anybody -- because you may actually get stuck with him. It's not like when you sign a guy after he's been released. Rather, you pay every little nickel of his contract. The whole reason the Padres claimed Myers was to block him from going to Atlanta. But Atlanta had no intention of claiming him, and the Blue Jays just let him go to San Diego. The Padres got seriously screwed because they owed him a heinous amount of money ($14M, per Wikipedia) over the remainder of his contract, during which time he played fairly little because of injuries, making the whole thing even worse. If the player's team is just looking to get rid of an ugly contract AND another team is foolish enough to claim that player (think: Vernon Wells, Alphonso Soriano, etc.), the waiving team can just let the guy go & be done with him & be out from under that financial burden. The Myers scenario was a timeless reminder that you don't just claim anybody & everybody because you cannot rescind your claim.

Green played all 60 of his rookie-ball games in '06 at 2B. In the 5 games since, he's played 30 games there, w/ 26 of those being this year. Still, it's not unrealistic to make the argument that if he's going to get significant PT, it should be at the position he's played the vast majority of his games over the past 5 years. Otherwise it's like saying Braun should move back to his "indigenous" position of SS and Hart to his "indigenous" position of 1B, both points periodically brought up in various discussions on this site (typically "looking ahead to next year" & "project next year's roster" threads) and pretty consistently shot down as the discussions have played out. On the point about the Brewers "trying out" Gamel at 3B as they did w/ Hart & Braun (heck, even Brad Nelson), Gamel was a 3B ever since he put on a Brewers uniform and had been pretty much a level behind Braun (though they were both picks in the '05 draft) coming up 'til he didn't hit major league pitching well, "got Macha'ed," and kept doing dumb things that resulted in him getting hurt multiple years in spring training. Other than 3 games at 1B in rookie ball in '05, Gamel never played a different defensive position 'til last year, when the Brewers figured that more defensive versatility would be beneficial to Gamel's potential usefulness to the Brewers -- and even then it was a mere 5 games in the OF in the minors.

Green has played very little 2B. The guy's a 3B, pretty much plain & simple. That he'd play much 2B seems like wishful thinking.

My comment re: outplaying McGehee was geared at spring training, not September, when he'd have plenty of chances to earn a starting job. And I think the biggest thing would be that Green would need to be the anti-Gamel in terms of staying healthy in order to take advantage of a spot that's basically his to lose. Citing Green's Minor League Player of the Year is an odd way to justify Green earning PT over McGehee. That was 4 years ago in A ball, and he's undergone a bad wrist injury that lowered his production for all of '09 & '10. Granted, he's come back mashing. Do you remember the player who was a 2-straight-year MVP of his league when the Brewers traded for him? However, that never got him a chance on a silver platter. Without a doubt, Green's killing the ball in AAA & I hope he does that in MIL, too. But his AAA numbers & hot streak aren't unlike where Gamel's been at multiple times prior to recalls, but Gamel's never capitalized very well on his chances up here. Every guy's different. But we've had every reason to expect Gamel to light it up in the bigs just as Braun did. But Gamel did far more of a Braggs/Meyer/Robideaux than a Braun. . . . . What I'm saying is that in 30+ years of being a die-hard Brewers fan, I've learned to temper my expectations (but not my excitement) a little on prospects arriving in the bigs 'til they actually start producing.

I know that's the case w/ service time (doesn't lose the full year or whatever), but I didn't think that was the case w/ burning an option.

There's still something about teams submitting their playoff roster on Sept. 1st. The fact that guys are on the DL means teams with that situation have certain flexibility.

No doubt McGehee's had a sub-standard year, but I think notions of him as a possible non-tender are beyond ridiculous. Anyone on the DL through Sept. 1st are still playoff-eligible. On the flip side, if a sure-bet playoff roster guy goes onto the DL in Sept. and cannot play, he can be replaced by someone already in the minor league system even if he's not presently on the roster. That's how K-Rod got called up during Sept. & made the playoff roster when he first came up.

You lost me there. Estrada? As it stands, De La Cruz profiles more as the 12th man on the present 12-man staff with Dillard now down. Would you really bump Estrada over De La Cruz? There aren't any other DL or minor league pitchers who deserve a roster spot over Estrada. 11-man playoff pitching roster: 5 starters: Greinke, Marcum, Gallardo, Wolf, Narveson 6 relievers: Axford, K-Rod, Hawkins, Saito, Loe, Estrada Also, if you option Estrada now, it counts as an option, regardless of when you recall him, doesn't it, because isn't the option burned when you send him down, not when you bring him up? (Sorry, I think in complex sentences.)

Haudricourt was assuring us of this repeatedly over the past month-plus. He's also said that those PTBNLs are likely to be low-level guys we won't miss, which has made it pretty safe to infer they're not getting legit prospects (Thornburg, etc.) or MLB-ready players (McClendon or Fiers or Peralta or Rivas, for example, though Rivas clearly hasn't been very good in AAA).

It sure doesn't look like Weeks will return before the rosters can expand Sept. 1st. So Weeks would just be activated with no corresponding roster move necessary. Gomez' return may well be before Sept. 1st, but waiting an extra day or two 'til after Sept. 1st doesn't hinder his inclusion on a playoff roster because he'd be on the 15-day DL and thus still be eligible. To answer your question, though, I think De La Cruz & Wilson are the only ones who'd truly have to worry about their spot should Gomez be activated prior to Sept. 1st. Counsell can't hit but he's pretty obviously safe due to the organization's love for him. Kotsay's 9-for-31 PH'ing and hitting .260-ish, so he's not going anywhere, either.

Hardly a given yet, but at least he's eligible. Weeks & Gomez would seem to be priorities for roster spots if healthy over Green. Wilson's eligible, too, but I could see him getting squeezed out by the return of those healthy starters (okay, 1 starter & 1 kinda-platoon starter).

From today's JSOnline article: "In the first half, people were saying we should get rid of Casey," said rightfielder Corey Hart. "They were saying, 'Bring up (Class AAA Nashville third baseman) Taylor Green. There's a big difference between Triple-A and here. A big difference." Green's surely shown ample reason to be in the bigs. But Hart points out there's still an adjustment to be made that doesn't ensure any success is automatic.... McGehee's MLB prospects were much less solid than Green's, but McGehee has made, overall, a pretty darn good adjustment to the bigs that his minor league numbers didn't foreshadow. If Green outplays McGehee and earns the starting spot, that's great. But I don't see any way they just name him the starter without him having to go out & earn it. Melvin & Co. know that a major-league track record for success carries decent weight. Bernman23, I separated the months of this year because it's not a completed season yet AND because his nasty slump happened when it did -- and that slump can be justly viewed as why his numbers for the season overall likely will look lousy, & all the more so if his improved play doesn't continue over the last month. To say McGehee's had .83 of a bad season this year is how you want to interpret the numbers, but I look at as poor math just as you view my breaking down this season as cherry picking. Neither of us are wrong based on how we're viewing it. We're just viewing the situation differently.

I'm not ignoring 2 months of data. It was a slump, and a very ugly one. But you're suggesting that those 2 months (now nearly 2 months behind us) provide more than a sufficient justification for a prediction that his "norm" going forward will be more like this year than the past 2 years plus over half of this year? I can't agree with that. For two full years plus over half of this year, he's been fine. I'm all for open competition & that he have to keep earning his spot. But I just don't see throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which seems to be what several folks have been advocating (in many threads, not necessarily here, and I'm not putting those words into your mouth/text). I really like that Green & Gamel are pounding AAA pitching and that for the first time in a few years, we've got some really solid-looking depth at the corner IF spots. That reality sure beats the present SS situation!