lcbj68c

I find it hard to believe you know what Melvin will or will not do. I don't unequivocally know. I'm only basing my guess/opinion on observations over the past 4 years. Your breakdown of year by year analysis goes to show that Melvin had really no good plan for viewing for the future when it came to the rotation. Continued backsliding with no clear attempt to make it better other than a mid-season rental that he was sure he was going to not resign and smartly so. As I've done many a times, I'm grateful for the way he built up to 2009, but me thinks he has no clear direction for 2010 and beyond, especially where pitching is concerned.

:bangs head on desk: Melvin doesn't do that!!!! In the off-season, Melvin trades or signs #4 or #5 type starters, or trades for youthful arms that may help 2-3 years down the road. In which case, if 2011 or 2012 is the "next window", it's been argued that we have plenty of those.

Cameron is worth his pay, the question is was there a cheaper option for CF where the drop off there would be offset by using the money on better pitching but that is just a hindsight question not necessarily a bad move but not necessarily the right one either. ~~MJLIVEROCK Ding, Ding, Ding!! But there just was nobody available is the same argument you'll here concerning #1 or #2 type pitchers. That, or it's too cold or...free agents don't come to Milwaukee....or point to one rumoured argument that C.C. was offered 100M, but he turned it down. People argue that another GM will take us back into the days of pre-Melvin. Well, what exactly is going to be the arguments when it's 2012, the crop of minor league talent doesn't blossom as expected, the wave of great hitters (minus Braun) are too expensive to keep and our window is gone. Without any change in attitude towards pitching, this team wins around 72 games in 2009, 2010, 2011 and we'll be right back to the pre-Melvin days. It's been great what's he's done, but it's time for him to adapt and change to the ecomony of the Brewers today (85M) and change in the way other GM's are building successful ballclubs if he wants to get over the top. If the goal is to be status-quo, just good enough for 75 win team and hope to god it continues to draw 2.75M fans, then Melvin is your man.

I think there is a happy medium. CC Sabathia pitched 8+ innnings many times, Gallardo has yet to do that often. CC pitched on 3 days rest many times, Gallardo has yet to do that. The injury involved the leg and Gallardo was still doing throwing mechanics with his arm. Certainly not pitching 100+ innings, but let's not assume he was sitting on his couch eating Cheesy Poofs from Oct. through February. He was getting his body ready for the work he missed from May to September. That said, I think Gallardo will find a happy medium around 190 innings. Maybe that's 20 innings more than "neccessary". And with the team being out of the playoff race, maybe they'll account accordingly and move him to the pen. It's July and so if they have a plan to limit his innings later, than maybe this is premature about nothing? I'm concerned, just can't be overly concerned not knowing what plan is or isn't in place.

Just about every contract is a risk for the Brewers. To lessen the risk, I'd take any young Tampa pitcher and Crawford. It's not shedding as much payroll as they'd like, so it's doubtful they do that, but maybe James Shields. Would you feel better about taking on Shields and Crawford for say, Escobar/Hardy and Lawrie?

Ignoring important facts such as acquiring a player with a contract (Crawford) to replace a guy with no contract for 2010 (Cameron). Maybe lateral in terms of talent, but not lateral in terms of contract/player control. I expected a better discussion from you than simply speak of Kazmir's change in pitch speed. Contract is pretty close to Suppan, he's younger and controlled longer. I don't see the financial concern.

I think what he is saying is. Why let him go 100 pitches? Why not cut him off at 80? Or hell..60? Where is his fatigue threshold? Have we proven it to be 100? Is it 120? Maybe it's 60? I think Macha has a pretty good understanding of what his fatigue threshhold is and it's likely closer to 120, hence why his pitching pattern has been such.

Kazmir lost velocity on his fastball due to a delivery change and added movement at the req of management. I'm not concerned. Kudos for ignoring the C.C. angle completely!

The funny part to me is that people basically want Melvin to burn the organizational depth so they can feel better for the next two months, and then just go back to complaining for the next 2 or 3 seasons. ~~ TLB You're not listening to what we are saying. It's not about 2009 (the next two months) anymore. It's about 2010, 2011, 2012...his proven track record of failing to acquire any pitching. Most people were pretty adament that the rotation was not going to give the Brewers a chance in 2009 and rightly so. I can give Melvin a pass on that. Being below .500 is going to suck. But that happens once in a while, if you have a mini-rebuilding period. The problem is, the track record shows that his ideals of importance aren't establishing a rotation good enough to sustain a season of great success. He went out and got C.C. for half a season, that's great. But how about establishing a rotation that can compete from April through September without having to go hunting and overpay in July. It's not about "feeling good for the next two months"...it's about being terrified to think where this rotation and therefore team is going to be in 2010...2011...if he doesn't change the way he approaches free agency, more specifically how he acquires starting pitching.

Roughly speaking, "too many pitches" seems to translate to "over 100". ~~ Baldkin It says roughly speaking. I just think that goes to show that "the line" is not so bright and is rather blurred. I'm not a physical therapist and know nothing about about the body, but doesn't Gallardo at some point, have to some longer outings with which to "build arm strength"? I know when I go the gym, they preach making your muscles tired and working those few extra reps. It's when the muscles are nearly fatigued that they start to build up. I'm not saying run him out there every outing to 140+, but you'd think a few longer outings around 120 pitches would be good for the arm, no?

Actually, that's not unlikely at all. Having the benefit of living in Tampa, it's likely that the Rays are going to try to move both C.C. and Kaz, as they are trying to shed payroll. 620WDAE had about an hour segment dedicated this morning to whether the Rays should be buyers or sellers at this point and who should go. CC and Kaz both are going to have to be gone is the general consensus. It may be as soon as Wed. If the Rays are swept by the Yankees, they'll be 9.5 GB of the wild card despite being near 10 games over .500. That's a huge Kazmir contract, but I'd love to get C.C. for left field with Braun moving to right field. That's a lot of payroll to get back, even for 2009, but this is about 2010 now for me and those two guys would drastically improve this club. Carl Crawford settles the leadoff position and allows Weeks to finally get slid into a power spot. They have no use for Gamel with Longoria fully entrenched there. I'd say they'd probably want Escobar (replaces Bartlett), Lawrie (replaces Zobrist) , and one of our catchers (replacing Navvy). Kazmir & Crawford for Escobar, Lawrie, Salome (can play a DH role as well), and A pitching prospect Brewers in 2010 Crawford LF Cain CF Braun RF Fielder 1B Weeks 2B Gamel 3B Hardy SS Free Agent Catcher Gallardo/Kazmir/Bush/Suppan/Parra Kazmir's contract is pretty reasonable. 8M in '10... 12M in '11..13.5M option in '12 Crawford is due to make 10M in 2010, and I'd argue he may be more valuable than Mike Cameron at the same salary. It is adding payroll, but I think it makes the team significantly better.

Not much. I doubt the rotation gets upgraded in the off-season, just a fill-in for Looper with Looper type aspirations. Back to Back losing seasons looks pretty likely at this point. Don't put me in the camp that isn't sold on what the "2011 wave of pitching" prospects hold. Atleast we aren't the Pirates. Meh!

This is really much ado about nothing. 107 pitches? I don't see the concern. He's pitched beyond the 7th inning just 3 times all season, and has only pitched past 115 pitches on 4 occassions with his highest total being 126 in a 1-0 game. He is at 120 innings over 19 starts for an average of 6 1/3 per start. Gallardo is not being abused. If anything, by going 115 once in a while, it helps stretch out that arm. If he goes 140+, two consecutive starts, yeah, I'd be concerned. I'm actually elated with the way Gallardo is being handled.

Worse than Florida? Never been to ARZ, but isn't that a dry heat. I guess I just assumed with the 100% humidity that this was the hottest place in the US. It's so miserable in the summer.

I guess that's the game. If you keep spinning and spinning and 18 years later you net a stud from the last line of spinning, did you win the trade? If Brett Wallace gets acquired and respun and 6 years later, that player gets respun for a pitcher who goes on to win 300 games over 20 years, did you win the trade? Especially so if you got Brett Wallace in addition for 6 years. It'll be interesting to see how Prince Fielder is handled when his arby is over. Will the Brewers just keep him or will his trade net the kind of return that could push this team over the top for all of the 10's if they scout the right parts?

Such a stealer that Billy Beane. Problem is, he likely lost the return deal to ARZ.

Any different than the Brevard County team? I mean..should parents start moving their student athletes out of Florida high schools because of the heat? Did Ryan Braun's development struggle at the Univ of Miami. I think the weather is much ado about nothing, from a player point of view that is. As a fan, I dread when the Brewers play in Miami, but loved the Series at the Trop, as much as dump that place is.

You can't make an argument about FA pitching, and then cite trade acquisitions to back it up imho. Completely different animals. I've repeatedly said I don't care how it gets here, just get it here. I've cited many a ways to acquire talent, even so much as stating maybe the foreign scouting needs to improve. I've given credit to Melvin for everything he's accomplished. Certainly not having a pennant isn't squarely on Melvin, but I do believe not having a pennant is directly related to the pitching staff that was acquired/not acquired over the past 6 years. The hard part isn't that we didnt have one yet from 08' or 09', but that baring something very dramatic, we won't have one in 10', 11', or as far as one can see until Melvin changes his philosophies or learns to be a better recruiter. He does most things very well and I'd rather he change his philosophies towards FA's and the budget better, but at what point do you cut bait? Doesn't this team need somebody to get them over the top at some point? 2012? 2020? 2025? I think the track record is proven enough at this point.

Meant to say potential free agent. I remember how coveted he was going to be near the deadline and the White Sox promptly signed him to an extension. Great foresight on their part. Nothing to do with DM.

The arguments should still be present in the forum when the Brewers were discussing Sarasota. As a Florida resident, March is not a rainy season.

I'm not good at projecting these things as I don't know the Arizona system and what they need. Supposedly it was asking too much of the Brewers for Doug Davis, so I'm guessing Dan Haren is a pipe dream. It would have been nice to get Dan Haren from Oakland, or any stud pitcher before they are a stud and get expensive....but as I've been told, decent foresight is an ridiculous expectation. How come our scouting people don't get any flak around here?

lcbj68c, I want to say that you've had access to things most fans don't, and I respect your knowledge & the sharing of it. However, it just really irks me when fans play the 'what if' game in general, and specifically when said fans seemingly just pull names they like out of a hat & use them as perfect 20/20 hindsight critiques. Fair enough. Like I've already said. Tampa has proven that it can be done. I would have no problem with Dan Haren's contract. I don't care how you get the pitching here, let's just get it here. When we are still sitting here in 2014 without any pitching, our offense is still in the top 15% percentile of the league... then what? It seems then the only excuse is, "It's cold here..or "We're the Milwaukee Brewers". That's not good enough for me. US Army recruiters have a tough job too. Guess what...we still have an army. (Let's not take this towards war policy, etc). Doug Melvin is not a very good recruiter and I think you need to be a good recruiter in the business of sports today, free agency being what it is. I'd gladly like to play a guy for 400,000 and free up 9M for a pitcher..we'll just have to disagree there that a chance at 200+ innings pitched of an ERA under 3.00 is more valuable than 25 home runs and gold glove defense from Cam, when scoring runs usually isn't the issue with this team. Again, I don't understand WAR and all those other metrics and maybe that's why I'm wrong in my beliefs, who knows.

You can win until 2020 when the same issues continue to manifest year after year. I then shall restart said argument. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

They are a part of history, when I saw McGwire hit his 65 HR in 1998 I thought that was really cool even though I wanted the Brewers to win. Don't forget the 66th that got taken away. Stupid Bob Davidson