NievesNoNO

For the Brewers, as important as pitching is, being able to surround Braun and Fielder (for as long as they have him) with cheap but productive talent is just as important. The best pitching staffs are generally developed internally anyway. An exception would be a team like the White Sox. But they didn't trade everyday players to get Danks, Floyd, and Peavy. They traded more established pitching in the case of Danks and Floyd, and younger pitching in the case of Peavy. To trade for young pitching, you generally have to give up established pitching. To trade for established pitching, you have to give up young pitching. Another example is the Twins. You don't see them dealing guys like Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Young, etc for pitching. They get their pitchers internally for the most part. I think you both make valid points. I'm not sure what McGehee could bring back but I don't think it would be a teams best or second best pitching prospect, but I think you could bring back someone with similar qualities as the Brewer's Rivas or Rodgers. I will agree that in general to get young pitching you must give up established pitcheing, however, just because it's not common doesn't mean it can't happen. If I try to look at it from a backwards perspective I guess I'd try to think of what would we be willing to give up for guy like Ryan Ludwick? I know they don't play the same position, but I think they profile fairly similar in terms of production and age. Every organization is in a different position and that position may change as the season goes on as might the value of McGehee. He might be valuable to other teams for the same reason he's valuable to the Brewers. I like McGehee. He's valuable to the team and is cost controlled for some time, but he's not on the list of players that I wouldn't consider trading.

That could very well be their decision and I couldn't blame them for it. I don't get it really. Why the lack of support for a good team? Is it the location of the stadium, the stadium itself, the demographics of the state, the whether, other entertainment options? Whatever it is, it's disappointing as a baseball fan to see that lack of support. Did they ever get their new stadium passed?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but do you think the Rays would really part with Hellickson? I could see them possibly parting with him (and not also Jennings) if it was a deadline deal this season for Fielder. But given the Rays spending habits and their stated goal of payroll reduction, I could see either Garza or Shields dealt this offseason to open up a spot for Hellickson. Yes, I do believe they would consider a deal for Fielder this season for Hellickson, with the consideration that they (Rays) maintain their level of play and are looking for the knockout punch to the Yankees and/or Red Sox this year and maybe next. I don't believe they would include Jennings either, that part was me fantasizing. I believe Pena, Crawford, Burrell, and Soriano are all free agents following this season. That's between 30-40 million right there. They will certaily have a decision coming with Garza in the near future.

I have my doubts whether Greinke gets made available. He's still under control for a couple more seasons and I could see the Royals shelling out for him before he hits free agency. They supposedly have a fairly decent group of talent at the low minor level; I'm sure it would be nice for them to keep one to the best pitcher in baseball when/if they can turn the corner a few years down the road. They also have Meche and Guillen coming off the books soon so that would free up some for money provided they don't throw it at some other free agents. Now, if I'm the Brewers I would probably throw any number of thier prospects previously mentioned at the Royals to get him. I think it would probably at least take two of LuCroy, Gamel, and Lawrie + Parra + another AA arm. I'm good with Braun, Weeks, Escobar, McGhee and Gomez going foward. My mind just flipped into video game mode: We aquire Greinke for the above mentioned and we deal Prince to Tampa for Hellickson and Jennings. Greinke Gallardo Wolf Hellickson Narveson Weeks Escobar Braun McGhee Edmonds/Hart Green/Counsel Gomez Zaun Call me up Mark A. I'll work for cheap!

Ahh, thanks for the link. Makes more sense now.

Tonight against LA Narveson keeps us in the game and the Crew squeaks by with a win v. Kershaw. Game 2 against Billingsly, Fielder lights him up for 2 bombs and the Brewers win, (I think). Let the 10 game win streak begin!!!!

I guess this is a two part question. Does anyone think Paplepon can be changed back into a starter and would be open to the idea. If I remember correctly he's one of those guys that the team wanted to limit innings early in his career so he pitched from the bullpen, but he did so well and he filled a need so they just left him there. I also want to say he was initially opposed to relieving. Somebody correct my unresearched history if I'm wrong. What kind of money do you think he'll get this off-season as a FA and would it be worth it for a team to give him a nice reliever type contract and convert him to a starter if he's open to it. (Yes, I'm talking about the Brewers here, but I suppose it could apply to any team. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif) Or, as some have suggested, Prince is traded to Boston and one of the players we get back is Papelbon. We sign him to an extension and ask him, or tell him nicely, that he's a starter. There seems to be a fair amount of good young arms that have ended up in the bullpen for not a very good reason IMO. I guess I just don't get the logic to have one of your best arms pitch 50-80 innings instead of 150-200. I understand that some of these guys have proven they're not good starters for whatever reason (lack of addition pitches, etc), but some have never been given much of a shot. Broxton is another that comes to mind recently. I'm sure there are more. These guys are obviously good at what they do and fill a need for the team but I guess I would just like to see some of these good young arms that teams have fail at starting before they get moved to the bullpen.

What make you think Grienke or anyone of his caliber was available? I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around how making a trade for one of the best pitchers in baseball, for 2 unproven prospects, to put the Brewers in the play-offs qualifies as a bad move. I guess at least that means Melvin has raised the bar on what the expectations should be for the Brewers. I will agree with those who say Melvin might lack some creativity with some trades and kind of hedges his bets so to speak. I still think Melvin is better than 75% of the GMs out there. I'm not one to say you have to choose somebody you'd rather have than our current GM, if you want to fire him. However, when I look around the league at some of the franchises with similar and even better resources I can't find very many that do a better job than Melvin. Yes, there are probably a few who are better, but I think the odds are greater that we hire someone who is completely incompetent and takes the franchise in a backwards direction.

He's one of the few players that might be able to bring back a top level arm. I certainly wouldn't trade him just to trade, but if we're discussing trying to improve our pitching he's probably second on the list next to Fielder.

If we're .500 at the deadline I hope we're sellers. I guess it really depends on the circumstances. If they're .500 but kind of trending upward and the wildcard is only a couple games away I'd find it hard to sell. If they're .500 and 5-6 games back and the pitching staff is where it is now it's time to sell. I'd deal anyone but Braun, Gallardo, Gomez and Escobar. I'd put a standing offer out to Tampa right now of Fielder for Hellickson and Jennings and hope to get Hellickson out of them by the deadline. McGhee and Weeks would probably have some solid value as well at the deadline. If Weeks stays healthy he could bring back something nice. Coffey might be able to net something with potential too. It's a little early to completely bail out just yet, but I suppose the way they've played so far there's not much exciting to discuss that's actually happening on the field.

I agree. There are a ton of franchises in a much worse position than Milwaukee. I'm not saying Melvin should be void of criticism but he's made baseball relevant again in Milwaukee. I just looked at the 2002, roster he inherited and wow, it really reaffirmed how far he has brought this team. It will be interesting to see where this off-season goes. If management is willing to take a couple steps backward to take more forward in a few years I think we'll be in good shape. Eight years, while it seems like a long time, considering the state of the whole system when he took over I don't think is quite enough to make a final judgement. He needed to basically replenish the entire system. Now that the first wave of players is coming into their FA/arbitration years we'll see how he handles them all.

Who? They signed Wolf who was considered by many as the second best FA pitching option. True aces rarely get to free agency and the ones that do receive CC type money. I don't mind the short term larger deals for Hoffman or Gagne, there's not really a big commitment there. The alternative is a Riske type situation or plugging in your own young arms and see who sinks or floats. I think it's too early for me to be demoralized yet. Hopefully the players feel the same way, but as bad as we feel as fans I'm sure the players feel even worse so I'm sure it's taken at least a small toll on some of them. I actually think there's reason to be reasonably optimistic. We've been leading late into games and I think the Brewers bullpen will come around. Most of the guys out there have a solid track record at least. I also think Gomez has been better than expected, Escobar has hit decent, McGhee has proved last year wasn't a fluke and Prince has yet to really hit. All in all I think we're in for an entertaining season yet.

No, While I think its unfair, I actually like the giants vs the underdog type stuff. However, I think there has to be something done to level the playing field a bit. A world draft, and revenue sharing would be a good start, but I don't think there needs to be a work stoppage for that. A salary cap might have some positives, but a floor I don't believe really benefits the game much. Forcing a team to spend money just to spend it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe upping FA signing compensation would help as well.

I think this is a little bit of a fluke. He might be back to being a good pitcher, but his stuff is not even close to what it was pre-injury. I think he ends the year with about a 3.7 era and a 1.3 whip.

I'm all right with those teams hanging on to prospects too long because in the end I think it hurts their franchise. A player will only be a prospect for so long. A lot of those are players who a team trys to build up to be better than what they are in my opinion, but I get what you're saying regarding getting value for Prince. I actually think Gamel is amost out of prospect status. The Brewers have handled his situation poorly. Either he should be playing now to find out if he is a good player or they should've traded him when his prospect status was at it's peak. A lot is made of getting full value when trading current players at their peak, but I think the same is true for prospects. I'm not one to get up in arms about burning service time of a player if they've proven what they've needed in the minors. Bring them up and start working on a long term deal. I guess that's for another topic though so I'll stop there. I do believe that if we trade Prince this deadline we'll end up with a fair deal, otherwise I think we may as well just hold on to him and take the picks. Overall I think we probably tend to overvalue our own players, but Prince might be an exception. We probably undervalue what he's really worth to this team and how other teams view him. He's right there with Howard and Texiera in my book. I disagree with those who say that the 20 million we save could be used to sign multiple free agents who might help us more than just him. Twenty million in free agency will buy 2 average players. Now if you want to argue, as some have, that the 20 million could be used to lock up maybe Weeks and Escobar I think that's possibly a fair trade off. Prince is they type of bat that some franchises wait generations for to come through their system.

I don't dislike the current format. Like others have said realignment won't solve competitive balance. I definitely would not remove the divisions. That said, if it was up to me these are the changes I'd make: I'd would realign the divisions, but not for competitive balance. I would realign and try to take more advantage of the geographical rivalries. I would remove the American and National Leagues and get rid of the DH. Each division winner gets a play-off spot + two wild card teams (best 2 remaining non division winners). The best eight teams would then go to a straight tournament format seeded by records. Divisions: California: LA Dodgers LA Angels Oakland San Francisco Padres West: Mariners Rockies Diamondbacks Rangers Astros Central: KC St. Louis Cincinatti Cleveland Pittsburge Great Lakes: Cubs White Sox Twins Brewers Detroit North East: Boston Toronto Yankees Mets Phillies South East: Atlanta Florida Rays Nationals Orioles

I can't see him slipping that much, but I get the point. Even if he repeats his 2008, it'll diminish his value. I think he'll turn it around, but agree that I don't think you can completely discount the notion that he might be pressing a bit. I think Boras did him a real disservice by coming out and stating what he thinks Fielder should be paid. I mean the guy all ready is trying to live up to a contract that he doesn't even have. He can say he's not thinking about it, but you know that's a lie. That being said he's had to live up to his name his whole life and has become the player everyone said he would be, possibly better, so I'm not sure how much of an affect this is actually having on his game.

I thought Wolf as well. My other guesses are Harang, Milwood, and Moyer. Edit: Guess Milwood won't work, missed the point about NL pitcher

I would agree that every team has a few under that radar moves that turn out well each year. I'm not saying that Melvin doesn't deserve to be critisized and critiqued, but the 'new girl isn't always so hot once you get to know her' (sorry, I just hate the grass is always greener one). I guess I think you have to be somewhat realistic of what to expect given the situation. Melvin has done a great job getting this franchise back to respectablility and I'm willing to give him a few more years to get us over the top. The process of building a good baseball franchise is a long process, not the same as a football or basketball team which can be done in a few years. I think the next year or two will define Melvin's time here. He's kind of at a crossroads now with the first wave of supposed/actual talent. Those players are(going to get) more expensive and decisions will have to be made on them. Hardy was the first domino, which IMO, was a solid move. Will he be willing to take one or two steps back, (remaining competitive) to take 3-4 steps forward? If we're not poised to make a run at the deadline this year I'd like to see a fire sale of sorts. Fielder, Hart (if someone will take him), Edmonds, maybe Weeks, any of the bullpen, up for grabs. Let's really see what we might have with Gamel and LuCroy or Salome, maybe Lawrie and some of our young pitchers that might be ready. What I don't want to see is a situation where we bring in pricey free agents each year to just try and be competitive only to finish around .500 ala the Baltimore Orioles of a few years back or the Astros. Right now, IMO, there are basically two models for small/mid market teams to follow, the Twins or Marlins. The Marlins complete dump and reload has won a couple championships. The Twins are always playing to make the play-offs it seems, but have not invested in any pricey free agents and basically refuse to gut their system for a one year shot at winning it. Personally, I prefer the Twins philosophy. I'd rather see meaningful games each year all year and make a few playoff runs. Eventually I think they'll get to the World Series if they keep their current plan. I'm not sure about Tampa yet. We'll see what they do the next couple years with regard to their impending FAs and arbitration guys. I can't argue with what they've accomplished, but I'm interested to see what direction they take now. They're kind of in the same boat as the Brewers except much with a much better team, but it's also taken them basically 10 years to build that franchise from ground up.

I think Macha puts a decent lineup out there. I like Edmonds/Hart up in the 2 hole. Theoretically Hart might see more fastballs to hit between Weeks and Braun. Edmonds (while I don't like to admit it) has been solid thus far. The only other guy I might like up there is McGhee, but he's doing well down at 5, so I don't see the point in messing with a good thing. The only thing I'd like to see is Escobar and Gomez hitting 6-7 and Zaun 8. At least when they do get on base they can use their best asset. Gomez at 2, seems kind of a waste. He's not that good of a hitter and when he does get on you don't really want him attemping any steals in front of Braun and Fielder. Zaun 8th, beacause then when he does actually get a hit it'll seem like bonus just to get to the pitcher. 1. Weeks 2. Hart/Edmonds 3. Braun 4. Fielder 5. McGhee 6. Escobar 7. Gomez 8. Zaun 9. pitcher For an interesting shakup: 1. Escobar 2. McGhee 3. Fielder 4. Braun 5. Weeks 6. Edmonds/Hart 7. Zaun 8. pitcher 9. Gomez

Yes, that would be a nice start. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

The Brewers can simply not afford to DFA Davis. There won't be a team left if they start making those types of moves based on a few games. Is he a good pitcher? No, but he has a track record of at least being consistently slightly above average. Although it would not surprise me to see average turn into below average this year. His WHIP is consistently bad and his K rate has been declining. The Brewers just need Davis and Bush to be healthy and throw when they're scheduled. The season really hinges on Gallardo taking the next step, Wolf repeating a career year, and probably something special to happen with either Narveson or Parra. That's another topic I suppose though.

O.K. I'm really becoming annoyed with Macha. I'm not blaming him for losses but I don't understand Counsel for Escobar AGAIN. I don't understand Edmonds taking starts from Gomez. (Not the case today, but has happened too often all ready in my book) If those are your best players at their respective positions then they should start almost every game. Fine, give them 10 games off a season or so, but it's not like they're 38 years old and trying to stay healthy for the season. Counsel and Edmonds will get enought at bats when someone actually does get hurt, so why give them un-needed at bats now! As I'm typing Counsel proceeds to get a hit of course. Anyway, go get 'em today boys!

I have to agree here. It's not the managers fault everytime a team loses. Hawkins actually pitched O.K. Over the course of the season I'm willing to bet he'll help us win more than he'll blow. While it didn't affect the outcome, it does bother me that Kennedy (I think) was able to take second basically at will and scored that second run of the 8th. I want to say that's happened multiple times all ready this year, but maybe it just feels that way. I didn't actually see the game, can somebody tell me was there any attempt to hold him at 1st?

Ueck is still the man in my book. I will agree, however that he does ramble on about his stories a little often these days. Listening to him is kind of the equivalent to watching an NBA game. They don't play until the last few minutes and I don't think he really pays much attention until the last couple innings. He still conveys the energy and emotion very well which I think sets him apart from many of the rest.