HiAndTight

I think if he does continue to work himself into good counts, and that's a monumental if still obviously, but if he does, I see no reason he wouldn't develop 20-25 HR power. I wouldn't bet on the new approach carrying, but at 6'4 215, he's got the raw power. He just doesn't have the selection.

I agree. You've noticed an entirely different approach from him as of late though. Taking pitches, not swinging at hittable breaking balls early in counts. Just having a much more relaxed approach, and obviously the sampling is tiny, but if he can keep doing that, and a fundamental change in his approach is more telling than the results(which have also been encouraging). He'll hit for some power if he can somehow continue approaching his AB's that way. Of course I'm not convinced, but....hey, I'm more optimistic than I have been until now..

I would argue that he is a good athlete and a decent runner. Above average defensively is something I clearly don't agree with, but his only problem as I see if is his height and stature at 1st. He simply can't get to as many balls out of a stretch as other 1st basemen. But he's not bad with the glove. Also, with regard to the first post, I hardly blame Gammons for not having become resolved to the idea that Prince is gone a year ago when our own owner seems to genuinely want to bring him back.

So you're saying a Gamel/Reyes SS/1B combination wouldn't provide a much improved defense over a Betancourt/Prince combo? Not sure if there's any world in which I can buy that.....

Yes, if we let it get that far. If we sign him to an extension midway through this season, he makes some concessions and we take added risk. There's no absolute line these have to follow, Prince and Braun's differences show that.

This makes some sense. A player can be one of many great Yankees, who will always be overshadowed by others, or they can be a folk hero in Wisconsin for the next 100 years. When CC left, he made a statement insinuating that he was more comfortable where he wouldn't be the one superstar with the spotlight shining on him, and would rather have teammates getting the attention. I think Braun is happy to be "the man" in Milwaukee.I remember this as well. After this statement was made I was more okay with CC not signing with the Brewers. I am more comfortable when my team's stud players have "the man" mentality. Yeah, but being "the man" while he was here certainly didn't bother him much. I have no opinion on a guys feelings about being the guy if he can be historically good during a playoff run.

I don't want to be put in a position to defend Prince, but that's just way overstating it. Edit-I see the post above me addressed it, but I would also throw Adam Dunn in there as an obvious one.

Please tell me that is a joke about Lucroy hitting #2. A catcher does not hit #2 - too much else on his mind. ....Seriously? He's not doing quantum physics, he's calling games, and whether he's hitting 2nd or 8th, he's not likely thinking about calling a 0-2 slider when he's in the box. I think it's a joke to suggest a catcher can't hit atop the order*cough*Jason Kendall*cough*Russell Martin*cough because he's got "too much on his mind." The problem is that the lineup is not structured properly for the way the team plays...if you are going to have a lot of big hitters in the lineup you need a guy who draws walks in the #2 spot. I actually wouldn't mind Hart in the #2 spot...we go with... Well, the problem with that is that Hart doesn't draw a lot of walks. You want a guy who draws walks, someone who walks at a 6.6 clip isn't going to do it. Morgan would be a much better choice in that spot.

I doubt he only gets a 5 year 110 million dollar contract. There is a disconnect between actual value and what his value will be on the market. I would bet my house that people thought Werth was "worth" something in that neighborhood of 5 years 75 million. I suspect Prince will get close to 7/175. That's not what I think he's worth, but that's what I think he'll get. And I think Baltimore is the most likely destination. He'd actually be a great fit there and he could help them actually contend with the Red Sox and Yankee's moving forward. That young core of pitchers that looks to be fantastic as well as the young offensive players that seems to be lagging a bit with Weiters, Jones and others, but is still very formidable.

Re-read the first two posts on this thread and tell me that no one is saying that. If you aren't, good. You're right. I'm not arguing with you on that, then. I see people suggesting that we may be a better team overall, suggesting better balance once Prince leaves. I see Arod and Griffey, two no doubt HOF'ers mentioned. I don't see anyone suggest that his production can be approximated by a journeymen. The reason I said that money would be spent on those players is that they are the most likely to get extensions (and raises) in an effort to keep together what I hope is a successful 2011 squad. Am I wrong that the payroll is not going up substantially in 2012, because you think it will? I guess we will have to wait and naturally never discuss it again. Well, the problem here is you took about 5 words from your initial statement. What you initially said was that the money saved on Prince would not be used on other positions. We've also cutting other players salaries, we're also growing as team and we're also on pace to have over 3 million again this year. That, coupled with the fact that again, we've got TV money that's coming in either in '12 or '13(I believe the extension starts in '12) and we have cost certainty with many of our younger players and it baffles me how you think the Brewers could offer Prince 20 million per year, but that they won't put a single dollar into another player not on this team. Or at LEAST not a substantial investment. Also saying the Brewers payroll is maxed out doesn't seem to be true based on Mark A and Melvin's own words, but we'll leave that one for now. It's because I don't trust him. It didn't take a large sample size for me to lose confidence in Escobar either, and all he proved in a full year was that he is better than Betancourt. Perhaps someday when he is an all-star we will revisit this conversation... but probably not. This is an opinion, after all, not a bet. A-Saying you're going to be right on Gamel because you weren't a fan of Escobar and he proved you right does absolutely nothing for me. I could turn around and say I was confident about Prince and was right about him. Neither are even slightly relevant. B-Not only was Escobar expected to struggle mightily last year offensively, but he never approached the level of offensive success that Gamel has. But fine, you don't trust him. That's...your opinion. But then leave the irrelevant numbers out, which incidentally are NOT horrible. They were league average. So at worst, he was league average while being jerked around and not playing everyday as a rookie. Money will continue to be spent, and positions will be upgraded or not, but Fielder has been a big part of the identity of the Brewers for the past 6 years, and I don't see a Mariners situation coming out of his departure. Name another time time the heart of a team has been removed and the team has improved. I think the Mariners were an aberration, and it would be delusional to expect it in Milwaukee. The Mariners did it twice with two SIGNIFICANTLY better players in Arod and Griffey in recent history. The Twins have done it with Santana and Hunter as well.

Hardy would be adding negative value to the team right now. If Hardy was on the Brewers right now Counsell would be the everyday SS. Hardy right now is a platoon player because he can not stay healthy. You only add negative value if you play poorly. Or don't play and cost a lot....

So many people here take it as gospel that his offense can be approximated by any "journeyman" and that his defense is a given upgrade as soon as he clears out his locker and dons the pinstripes. If that's true, I posit that we had that before he ever reached the majors. Lyle Overbay (disclaimer, huge Overbay fan) was a consistent doubles hitter with above-average defense. Why didn't we just trade away Prince when we already had the ideal? This is absolutely ridiculous. I've yet to hear one-single-person suggest that we can find a journeyman to "approximate" Prince's impact offensively or even come close to doing. What was ACTUALLY said was that you can find a suitable 1st basemen on the FA market fairly easily, and THEN that money can be used to upgrade other positions as well. It absolutely baffles my mind where you somehow come up with anyone suggesting that Lyle Overbay is anywhere near ideal as compared to Prince Fielder. To a man every-single-Brewers fan would love to have Prince Fielder next year. However as we can't afford it and given the deficiencies of this team, it's a very valid question to ask can we improve next year when we lose Prince and his 16 million dollars by upgrading SS and CF with..again, Furcal and DeJesus for instance. So yes, there is absolutely, undeniably a "realistic" scenario in which we get better. To those who say that we get better by intelligently using his raise: news flash, the Brewers payroll isn't going up by $15M next year. The reason Prince isn't staying is because the Milwaukee payroll is maxed out. There is no raise that will be better used on your moneyball gems. What he doesn't make in 2012 will be used to retain McGehee, or Greinke, or Marcum. Well...this is just flat out wrong. Not sure where you're getting this. Marcum and Greinke are signed through next year and Greinke is being paid the exact same. And the raises to the other two are hardly prohibitive. But the Brewers also signed a TV deal that's due to kick in next year, and they've spent the same amount of money and according to Forbes have made 11-12 million with fewer people attending. Finally, the Gamel argument: from what I have seen, why does anyone want him in the show? Because he's a very good hitter with a great left handed swing. He isn't the prospect he once was, and his major league numbers have been a joke. No, they have not. I respect that the sample size is small Then honestly....why bring it up? Your basically saying, "I realize there is almost no basis for what I'm saying, but I chose to use this as a factual basis for my argument anyway." And it's not even true. Gamel was fine in the one time he's gotten regular big league AB's a couple years ago and he didn't even get "regular" AB's, just semi-regular. but even if he will ever develop to the level of journeyman respectability, it won't be soon. Another ABSOLUTELY ridiculous statement. It won't be anytime soon? Because you say so? He's ready right now to be a very good big league offensive player, but he's not going to supplant Prince or McGehee, so he's in AAA. What HASN'T he done offensively in the minors to make you think this? Since you already admit that it's a small sample size. You want to hurry up and start paying dues on the next guy who will leave if he's any good? I don't have a clue what this is saying. Why not just keep the big star for our last real shot for a while? Yeah..we are. The question is AFTER the season.

Good to hear. I'm a big Taylor Green fan. Clearly he hit a rough patch with the wrist and hasn't fully come back from that, but I think he's still a very important piece for the Brewers. I'd love to see him be playing 3rd and hitting 2nd for this team in the near future. I think he can be a prototypical #2 hitter, get on base, hit 13-15 HR's a year and play good defense at 3rd.

Poor defense at 3rd, mainly the result of bad footwork and throws does not in any way mean a guy will struggle at 1st. I full expect him to be a fantastic defender at 1st after 3-4 months of big league time.

Gomez does not and we'd be paying for Betancourt in this scenario, so if they didn't want him, they don't have to take him. Problem solved.

Would JJ Hardy be a huge upgrade for the Brewers? I would think that would answer that question...

Parra can't cut it as a starter. Something about his fastball makes it easy for hitters to hit hard. Probably location. I don't think the issues are mental of confidence related at all. The Curious Case of Manny Parra I don't agree with this at all. Parra's stuff is good enough for any role if he locates, and if he doesn't, he's just a front end of the pen type guy, or a swing man at best. He's got several nasty pitches he CAN throw, so it's not a matter of him being just a 2 pitch pitcher. Parra could be a very good #2 should he ever figure it out. For this team, his role is in the pen obviously, but I just completely reject that premise.

I think it's even more than that. I think setting aside the future ramifications of the contract, we could still be much improved simply by spreading some of the money out next year. Much of this is contingent upon Gamel being productive at 1st, so others obviously won't be as confident, but I believe Gamel's too talented to not be a productive offensive player in the big leagues, and I believe he's capable of hitting .300/.375/.450. That with what one would assume is much improved defense would vastly limit the loss of Prince, but even at a line of .275/.350/.425, with the money saved we could improve the SS position as well as the CF position. Someone along the lines of a Marco Scutaro for 2 years and 12 million to 15 million would be a huge upgrade at short. JJ Hardy would as well. It remains to be seen if that's even plausible given his departure from here, but money talks, and short of a big season, he may not be in as much demand as he would like. And a guy like David DeJesus in CF for a similar deal would go a long way to shoring up two incredibly important positions with two very solid players. This is just speculation, but the question is could we be better without Fielder. A lineup of; 1-Weeks 2B 2-Scutaro SS 3-Braun LF 4-Gamel(L) 1B 5-Hart RF 6-DeJesus(L) CF 7-McGehee 3B 8-Lucroy C Of course this exact lineup is unlikely to materialize, but we'll have money to spend, and with the starters coming back that we'll have with Greinke, Marcum, and Yo in particular, spreading out the money so we don't have the huge black holes could easily leave us with a more balanced lineup, and a far better defensive team.

Yeah, that works just fine as well. I was simply talking about this years lineup. I actually think they'll just keep him as the leadoff hitter, but 3, 4, 5....he'll work anywhere IMO if he produces like he did last year.

If they don't, I can think of 29 other teams who'd almost certainly all give up several top prospects for the privilege.

I would be thrilled with Furcal. Reyes will be looking at 9 figures most likely. At least trying to and I wouldn't even dream of that. Furcal for 2 years and 20 million would be more than acceptable to me. Upgrading our Defense at a couple spots and keeping our pitching might have next year looking as encouraging at this year.

Who will win: AL East-Red Sox AL Central-Twins AL West-A's AL Wild Card-Yankees NL East-Braves NL Central-Brewers NL West-Rockies NL Wild Card-Phillies Playoffs? AL Red Sox over A's Twins over Yankees Twins over Red Sox NL Braves over Rockies Phillies over Brewers Braves over Phillies WS- Braves over Twins AL MVP-Adrian Gonzalez NL MVP-Jason Heyward AL Cy Young-Felix Hernandez NL Cy Young-Tommy Hanson AL Rookie of the Year-Kyle Gibson NL Rookie of the Year-Freddie Freeman AL Manager of the Year-Mike Scioscia NL Manager of the Year-Freddi Gonzalez

I personally think Rickie Weeks is. However, I understand your point.I'd be inclined to agree with you. It's amazing how often I'm talking to other Brewers fans and I STILL hear that Rickie isn't a leadoff hitter. Not that he would be best served hitting 5th in the order, but that he's not good enough to be a leadoff hitter. Of course I ask why...and it's because he strikes out too much. Fans have come around on him in that they don't still consider him terrible, but I don't think the average fan who looks almost exclusively at BA/HR/RBI will ever truly be sold on Rickie. The fact of the matter even when everyone was calling for his head he was a pretty damn good player. Last year he was a great one. Same thing with Cam, except he was a very good defender as well. And both played the game right. So while I discount the importance of chemistry, I don't discount leadership. Hard to watch Rickie take a ball to the chin and then go out there and dog it....

I don´t think there will ever [/u]be a time where the Brewers go "far enough" in the eyes of some posters. And that's my point. We have put together perhaps the best lineup/rotation combination since the days of Yount/Molitor. I think obsessing over the fact that Reed will be on the team for a week or two (until Hart gets back), or the fact that the last guy on our bench is Almonte is making mountains out of very small molehills. That is just my glass half full perspective, I guess I'm just sick of people repeating the small negatives over and over again ad nauseum in post after post while not adding anything new to the discussion. I don't agree. I was...so vehemetly against the Brett Lawrie trade. I still think player for player that was a terrible deal that we're going to come to regret when taken along. I was in favor of just using the picks this year, the picks from Prince, or the prospects we got and playing it out like that. I don't think we're like Cleveland in the sense that once it falls apart and the attendance goes down, it's going to take an act of congress to get it back. I think we'd have been fine financially while we rebuild from within. Then we trade for Greinke, the guy I thought we should have targeted when we got CC, and I looked at the Marcum trade differently. But once we did that, we NEEDED to take that extra half step. It's like we walked 20 miles and decided that the extra quarter mile was just too much. Even a guy like Orlando Cabrera would have been fine. I'd have been perfectly content with Carlos Gomez in CF and Orlando Cabrera or a passable defender at short in liu of Betencourt. It's a terrifying thought as a Brewers fan to go into the season with a top 5 1-5 rotation, one of the best top 5 lineup's in the game, and then have Rickie Weeks(who might be my favorite player) as your 2nd best defender, particularly when your BEST defender is a guy who could easily struggle to a .290 OBP again and find himself on the bench(or better yet in AAA if that does in fact happen). I'm also not advocating a blockbuster move. I'm not saying we've got to add 19 million in salary by trading for Carlos Beltran, or that we need to trade for Jose Reyes. Jack Wilson would have been plenty for me. Our farm is terrible right now in terms of top end talent, but we've still got a litany of players who are big league prospects. Fringe starters, utility players, #3 starters, good power armed relievers...with a couple guys who could be special talents littered in there. We could and should take that extra baby step to complete the team....IMO.

I dont understand the concept of giving him starts in the minors or in az camp. When hes ready to pitch, he should be on the roster pitching out of the bullpen (of course with normal starting pitcher rest) until he has the arm stregnth to start. Pitch 3 innings or whatever and finish your pitch count in the bullpen after the game. Do we realy need a 5th outfielder at the expense of the teams best pitcher? There is just a litany of reasons why I think this is a bad idea..with all due respect. I don't care what happens in a minor league game, I do care what happens on the big league side. I suspect Greinke's the same way. So if the goal is to just build up arm strength, I'd prefer low leverage situations where he doesn't feel compelled to throw that 1-2 slider when his arm is already tiring. Where he doesn't feel the need to reach back for a little bit extra when he's just getting his arm going. Where he can throw 15 straight fastballs, know they're going to sit on it and not care. Just let him get healthy and strong in the minor leagues. If he'd pitched half the year and we were in the race, then I could see this argument a little bit better, but as it is, I just don't think having him stretch out during big league games is a good idea.