Thurston Fluff

The exception to this seems to be the Cardinals, who will get rid of players like Colby Rasmus and Shelby Miller because they don't fit their mold, but that's a mold put in place by the owner and believed throughout the system, not a rule put in place by the manager. How is that working out for them? I think it just shows what happens when you hold the right people accountable.

What were they supposed to do with Yost? Keep him like KC did. It seems to be working out there doesn't it? What were they supposed to do now? Keep RRR and fire the players who obviously are not playing well enough. If you fail to address the real problem then you cannot expect the real problems to get fixed. This isn't like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound. It's like sewing your fingers together to close a cut on your foot. It not only doesn't help it actually hurts. I think giving Craiger a 3 yr deal actually shows they get exactly what you're saying though and don't want a revolving door every season (like say the Marlins). By this time next season Counsell will have less time left on his contract than RRR did when he got fired. That is hardly an indication Mark learned anything about the revolving managerial door.

Actually you can fire the players. Teams do it all the time.

We hit on this a bit in the RRR fired thread but I think the topic of constantly changing managers deserves it's own thread. If we go back and look at our history under Mark Attanasio we see a pattern of instability that seems to me is feeding on itself. With 12 games to go the Brewers fired Yost. He went to KC and did some of the same frustrating things there that he did here. Yet they stuck with him. Not only did he take them to the World Series he is also has them in first place this season. That after losing their version of Greinke. So we hired Macha. He was not very in tune with the players who basically got him run out of town. So we hired a player's manager who we got rid of the first sign of trouble. Now on our 4th manager (I'm not counting Sveum. You need to manage more than 15 games to count) we are worse than we were under our first. Obviously it isn't the manager that was the problem. Yet we keep firing them. At some point shouldn't it occur to Mark Attanasio that the very act of firing might be part of the problem? How does a manager get across to the players they cannot keep making the same stupid mistakes if the manager is the one who gets replaced when they do? How does a manager get players to play the way he needs them to if they can rebel against that way and win? That was what did Macha in. Had we kept Macha and traded anyone who didn't work with him, Fielder and Braun included, would we be in worse shape today? I think not. Sticking with a manager provides stability while also allowing him to actually lead. You cannot lead men when you are the one who will gets replaced if they don't follow. You cannot lead when players know the manager really does not have the power to enforce what he demands of them. To try and fire your way to find one who can is a fools quest. Seems to me Mark Attanasio may be the biggest of the fools in baseball these days.

I think it's a bit premature to say any of those three are going to have any larger return than the incredible amount of talent our last rebuild effort got us. A few guys get hurt or turn out to be incredibly average and the dynasty is short lived. You know who doesn't tear everything apart start over? The Cardinals. It isn't a coincidence that they remained competitive throughout several Cub and Astro rebuilds.

Think about it. Take roughly the last 10-15 years and all of the countless pitchers the Brewers have drafted over that time. It almost should defy the statistical odds that so few of those pitchers could have panned out good enough to be at least quality relief pitchers for a couple of years or longer. It seems to me that last few years we have seen a pretty decent amount of home grown pitching come in and do well. Granted it was a problem over a longer period of time but the past few years we saw the likes of Nelson, Thornburg, Peralta, Jefferess and Fiers come in and do well. For a franchise that hasn't had a draft pick in the top 10 over that period of time to still manage to draft 3/5ths of it's starting rotation can't be as terrible at drafting pitching as you suggest. The problem was not doing very well prior to this group. But you do have to recognize what they are doing now is different than what they did then. He learned that move from RRR, who often did the same exact stupid stuff... You could insert any manager's name in that sentence and be accurate. So either all managers do really stupid stuff or we are missing something as to why they do it. When things like that occur I tend to think it's my ignorance that is the problem. Though, as sabre metrics showed, sometimes it is mass stupidity at work.

I was for the Marcum and Greinke deals at the time but in hindsight I and not so sure they were the right moves. Sure it gave us one great season. Key word one. Had we kept those players we would now be in the middle of a pretty great run of talent with no end in sight. I think we would have ended up with more playoff appearances if we had traded Fielder for prospects and moved on with what we had. The Sabathia deal I think is a bit different. Mainly because of the place the franchise was at back then. This franchise needed to show it was a serious player in the league after decades of being a farm system for other franchises. That deal did exactly that. And it really only cost us one player who turned out to be any good. At a position we had someone as good as he was at anyway.

By management or posters? It seems to me that is exactly what some posters want. Not so much here though there seems a lot more in favor of total rebuild than moderate changes here too. In general fans, sports talk shows and new papers never seem to mention a reload vs a rebuild. I hear a lot of how it's time to blow the thing up and start over. Not so much of how to win in the next two years.

Just saying the decision to blow it up and build for 3-4 years down the road isn't so easy, and coming to that conclusion based on a year end where Braun was a shell and the first 15 games of this year was a disaster, might not be all that wise. I think there is a difference between going for a total rebuild and changing the dynamics of a team that is too inconsistent as it is built. We can keep some of these guys and go through a mini rebuild, more of a revamp than rebuild really, by trading the likes of Lind, Gomez, Garza, Ramirez and Lohse. If we can flip some of them for a different type of player that would balance out our lineup a bit better we can be competitive sooner than we would be if we did a total rebuild. That route doesn't seem to be getting enough consideration IMHO.

There is a slight chance they'll deal Gomez, probably won't deal Segura and won't even listen to an offer when someone calls desperate for Lucroy. Yeah, the future looks really bright. Going from -Atlanta asked about him and was told no- to -won't even listen to offers from desperate teams- is a pretty huge leap. Especially when you consider Atlanta needed a 6 game winning streak to reach .500 and wasn't expected to compete this year anyway. That is hardly the definition of desperate. There is no hurry to trade him. If a team is desperate now there will be more teams looking for him in the winter. That should only make a team like Atlanta more desperate.

That is kind of where I am at. I do wonder if it isn't that obvious a lot but nobody calls other teams out on it. I read where Freddie Freeman said he prefers they use it so there is less chance of getting hit. I'm kind of curious if there isn't sort of a gentleman's agreement that you should not call out the opponents on it on cold days or something. Not because everyone does it but because everyone agrees its the best way to reduce how many people get hit.

The big thing is the pitching though. This year's Brewers have one starting pitcher with a FIP under 4. The 2011 team had 3 and none with a FIP higher than 4.29. The bullpen in 2011 was also rock solid. This bullpen is the antithesis of rock solid. Not that I am saying this team is as good as 2011 but comparing a full season to two months of another is not a very good way to state your case. This pitching staff is much better than it's current numbers would suggest. Over the length of a full season you pretty much always end up what your talent suggests you should. That seems to be around a 500 record. Since that isn't good enough I think it best to trade any player who is on their last year here and take a long hard look at how to rebuild a respectable team in the winter.

I don't think it was that big a leap. The same could be said of virtually any reliever in any given year.

If you put it that way then yes, the Phillies just recently had a 6 game winning streak. With the current make up of the team, anything more than maybe a three game winning streak feels impossible right now. I think the makeup of this team is a reason why we could get on one. A slugging heavy, low OBP team with inconsistent pitching seems destined to streak it's way through the season.

If Lohse was going to be traded this early I was certain it would have been to St. Louis, despite the usual in-division rule. If I was Doug I would want to trade any guys on their last year of a contract in division. By doing that we take away some of the future of division opponents while building ours. Naturally that would be why our opponents wouldn't want to but all things being equal we should make/take in-division trades.

Braun brought the bad press upon himself. I don't see what the media had to do with this? Let's watch the press conference again: Now put that up against what Brady has done since he got caught. Are you really going to say Brady denying he so much as knew who the ball boy was, let alone using him to deflate balls, isn't a pretty crappy thing to do? I am not arguing what Braun did wasn't wieniesque. It was. He deserved every bit of what he got. I am just saying what Brady did to those ball boys was as bad and he should be getting hammered the same. Yet he isn't getting near the flack for it Braun got. Just seems like a double standard with football and baseball. Hell look at the way steroid cheaters are treated in both leagues by fans, the league and the media. Can anyone even name the NFL guys who were caught recently. Hint there are plenty to choose from since Braun got caught. Even the penalty is less in the NFL. That doesn't even touch how the fans and media treat them. Shaun Merriman got caught and suspended yet was in the top five in voting for defensive player of the year that very same season. In baseball it pretty much disqualifies a player from ever getting a sniff of it ever again.

With Phil Garner as manager as I recall. You've convinced me. Lets hope when any sane man would hope no longer!!!

Not to go too far off subject but I wonder why Tom Brady can essentially lie and throw a couple ball boys under the bus and not receive any crap about it. I understand those dudes did actually deflate the ball, obviously at Brady's request, but that doesn't make Brady's actions relating to them any less wienie like.

This is a chicken or egg thing IMHO. Is it the players we get or is it a lack of properly developing them? I honestly don't know.

What an odd complaint. I think everyone knew who he was referring to since the thread is about one player and he was pretty clearly talking about that player. Actually when I reread it I get what he meant. The meaning was what I meant but a lot of repeated words makes things tough to follow. Something I have been accused of before. I blame reading too much philosophy. They all do that.

Not really. He isn't hitting anything right now. It could be he just isn't good enough or it could be he needs to go down and regroup. If he does regroup it will still be up for debate if he can learn to hit lefties. Well, I dunno. I know that he's not hitting anything but I would trust him to maybe find his way back to above-average at hitting RHP. Seems like a chasm to leap over for him to be able to also improve the LHP splits. I agree it will be easier to get back to where he was than to improve what he never was good at. But that does not mean he couldn't get back to where he was then start to improve on his weakness at that point. I think the most this does is set back the time it would take to get there. If indeed he ever could have got there, which was always in question.

After losing two series in a row again I think it's safe to say we are not going to suddenly turn it around in time to save the season. For doing that so early in the season I am grateful. I can now look at this season as the beginning of a new era instead of the last gasp of the old one. While it would have been nice to see the old one go out with more wins starting over has it's own excitement. Seeing who we get for the future at this point is more interesting than the actual games. I will still listen/watch games and will cheer especially loud when we play the Cubs or Cards. No matter how we are doing if we can take those two down the season isn't a total loss.

I have long suspected a moderately well trained chimp could manage. I guess we'll find out. Anyone who would voluntarily work for Loria must have missed that whole evolution thing.

I disagree we need to keep Segura at shortstop for maximum trade value. It isn't like teams don't know he can play shortstop as is.

Not really. He isn't hitting anything right now. It could be he just isn't good enough or it could be he needs to go down and regroup. If he does regroup it will still be up for debate if he can learn to hit lefties.