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Does Rice belong in the Hall of Fame? Career stats..........15 seasons, 2452 hits, 382 HR, 1452 RBI, 1249 Runs, 58 SB, .298 Ave, .854 OPS, 4129 total bases. One MVP, 8 All-Star selections Rice is another guy who's on the bubble with the writers, and stands a decent chance this year. Jim was a dominant slugger for the first ten years of his career, but his skills declined sharply as he moved toward his mid-30's. Jim was never considered a strong defensive outfielder, DHing a good percentage of the time, even in his prime. This one's close, the first 2/3 of his career tell me he was a Hall of Famer, but the rapid decline tells me he was not........my vote is no. What do you think?

Thanks to all who participated in this thread, and the corresponding poll. As far as HOF voting goes, I think relief pitching is the most poorly defined position. What constitutes a HOF reliever? You can argue Sutter's case, but I do believe the best at this position belong, the same as any other position, relievers are part of the game. There certainly wasn't a consensus on Sutter, sorry Bruce, Brewerfan.net members DO NOT elect you to the Hall of Fame.

I'm still hoping for suggestions on how to identify the truly elite relievers. I agreed the save stat today holds very little meaning, but I wasn't sure about the guys from the 70's and 80's, so I took a look. I looked at Wilhelm, Fingers, Eckersley, Sutter, Gossage, Quisenberry, Reardon, Sparky Lyle, Jim Kern, Kent Tekulve, Mike Marshall, Gene Garber and the early seasons for Lee Smith. I found that in their peak save years, they typically pitched more than 100 innings, often appeared in 70 or more games, and typically wound up with 25-35 saves. Clearly, ace relievers were not used in the closer role we now have..........until Eckersley in 1988, that seems to be where saves became far less meaningful, and closers were used strictly for the 9th inning. In Sutter's Cy Young season, which was 1979, he pitched in 62 games, totalling 101 1/3 innings, and ended with 37 saves......37 saves and he won the Cy Young. In Sutter's peak save year, which was 1984, he appeared in 71 games, racking up 122 2/3 innings, and ending with 45 saves. The closer role was beginning to take shape, but still, more than 1 1/2 innings per appearance. In '88, Eck became a full time closer, and right out of the chute, he appeared in 60 games, but only 70 2/3 innings, and walked off with 45 saves........clearly, expectations had changed. I would say, for pitchers before Eck, saves hold a lot more weight than they do for the guys from the 90's on up. Considering the increased workload, and the fact that often times the guys from the pre-Eck era inherited runners, I think a guy with 300 saves qualifies as elite for that era and belongs in the Hall of Fame. It's a lot cloudier than trying to judge a leadoff hitter, but my vote does not change, I still say yes to Sutter. John Franco and Trevor Hoffman will not move me with their save totals, they have a completely different meaning, but Bruce, with the number he had when a save actually meant his team had a realistic chance to lose, has my support.

Here's to a bounce back start from Cappy tomorrow.

There have been some terrific posts guys, thanks so much for the discussion, you've really got me wondering exactly what is a HOF reliever. When I started this thread there was no doubt in my mind that Sutter belonged, now, I really don't know. Sutter came fairly close in the voting last year, and there aren't any slam dunk first-timers this year, he's got a real shot. Having read through this thread, I'm back on the fence here. Please correct me if I've forgotten someone, but I believe the only relievers in the Hall are Wilhelm, Fingers and Eckersley, who's really in his own category. Sutter was great, he ate hitters with that split-finger pitch. He was one of the few guys who really made me feel like the game was over when he came in. Is that enough? How are we judging here? Is this based on Saves, on ERA, on WHIP, K's per 9, or ERA+? What is a HOF reliever? If there is such a thing, it would seem to me that Sutter was one. A 12-year career is very short for a HOF player though..........did he do enough?

Good point pogokat, but Sutter's career was mostly before saves became what they are today. A save in 1980 was entirely different from a save today, often times those closers were brought in when the SP got into a jam. I don't think the save totals for guys like Fingers, Sutter and Gossage should be compared to guys like Smith, Hoffman and Reardon. I think 300 saves from '76-'85 is a lot more impressive than 400 saves from '96-'05.

Excellent post Huntsville, I hadn't thought of it in those terms........the Morris comparison was compelling for me.

Guys, hold the Santo debate..........please. He's definitely on the list, he'll get his own thread, in fact, if he's on your minds, he can be next...........this one's for Sutter.

This thread has been pro-Sutter, but the ongoing poll shows three yes votes and two no votes. Obviously Sutter was a split decision for the baseball writers......."No" guys.........why not? Let's hear from you too.

At the risk of having the Sutter thread become the Martin thread...........HighLife, that was outstanding, please tell me you looked that up. If you have that memorized, we may need to send help. Luzinski, you're on the right track, but it's from "The Jerk."

Do you think Bruce Sutter should be elected to the Hall of Fame? Sutter is the first in a series, I plan to roll these out about once a week, going through the top players on the writers' ballot, then those in the hands of the Veterans Committee. Feel free to compare Bruce to other players, etc, but don't argue for another player's election in this thread.........they'll all have their day. Thanks. Career stats..........12 seasons, 300 saves, 861 K's, 2.83 ERA, 1 Cy Young, 4 Rolaids Relief Awards, 5 times led league in saves, 6 All-Star selections, and (as if we could forget) one World Series win. Please share your thoughts, feel free to hit the polls forum and place your vote. My vote is yes.

Ok, I can't quantify it any better than anyone else, but I know it when I see it. It's a different sport, but still...........heart = Brett Favre, lack of heart = Cletidus Hunt.

This is what happens to non-believers.............I read about Weeks' injury, and sat him for the first time tonight on my fantasy team. That's what I get, and I deserve it.

America is, I'll bet a lot of those same people would vote OPS the most important stat, without realizing the contradiction.

Please add a "Team History" section to the Fan Forum. I see a lot of posts discussing favorite players from bygone eras, favorite Opening Days, all-time team leaders, etc. Those are great, but it's really something different from the Major League forum.

Brian, can I swear here?

Just made it back home to the Madison area from the game. Wow, was that fun! I can only get down to 2-3 games a year, my wife bought these tickest the day they went on sale, she didn't tell me about it until yesterday. What a blast, to follow Rickie and Prince from the time they were drafted, and have 'em both go deep on the same night.....my wife couldn't have picked a better one! Lots of noisy, but good natured Twins fans around me tonight, they sure were in our faces early.........seemed kind of in a rush to leave at the end!

The Power 50 is one of my favorite features on the site, however you feel about Toby's assessment of Braun, it's great to see a good debate about it. Any draft pick is a risk, but I'd take a guy like Braun more often than not, the only one of Jack Z's #1's who looks like a certain miss right now is Jones.........a high school pitcher. Give me the guy who has speed, power and has faced some better competition every time.

Peter Gammons says that according to "One GM" Zimmerman will be the Brewers' man on draft day. A solid 3B prospect would make sense for the organization. Any thoughts?