TheCrew07

Shaping up to be a tough year pitching wise for the Pirates. Taillon needs TJ, Glasnow still hasn't returned from a non throwing issue (I want to say back or hamstring), and now Heredia leaves early. Heredia pulled with shoulder discomfort Pirates No. 10 prospect taken out after throwing one pitch for Power

I'm well aware of exactly what Estrada is, he's basically a less healthy Marcum. He's got an average FB, good secondary stuff, relies on command, and when he leaves the ball up he gets hit hard. He's also 30 and isn't able to stay healthy. It's not what Estrada is that makes him replaceable, it's what he isn't, which is someone who's young, healthy, and you can count on for 25 starts a year. [pre]Year Age ERA G GS IP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB 2011 27 4.08 43 7 92.2 97 1.209 8.1 1.1 2.8 8.5 3.03 2012 28 3.64 29 23 138.1 113 1.142 8.4 1.2 1.9 9.3 4.93 2013 29 3.87 21 21 128.0 101 1.078 7.7 1.3 2.0 8.3 4.07 2014 30 2.31 2 2 11.2 163 1.200 6.9 1.5 3.9 9.3 2.40[/pre] He's an upper 3 ERA pitcher, I said that was "good", if you want to use "darn good" that's fine, but if Thornburg is a 4.0 ERA pitcher, what exactly are we losing? Even at Estrada's career best 3.6 is .4 runs per every 5th start going to be the difference in the season? The perceived drop off from Estrada to Thornburg is basically negligible if Thornburg can pitch as #3 for the season, it's been overstated. As for breaking in starters as relievers, that's fine if you're trying to limit innings or bringing up a guy in September to get his feet wet, but to go back to what Baltimore did in an entirely different era of baseball isn't an apt comparison on any level. The economics of the game have changed way too much. If any pitcher is *good* and healthy for Milwaukee, he'll price himself out of the Brewers reach when he hits FA so we have to maximize his value while we have him. In Thornburg's case he was already up last season and got his feet wet, his clock is ticking and if he ultimately ends up being a starter wasting a year of his service time on 80 innings that we have other options for is roster mismanagement. People want to frame these arguments around "being competitive", well ideally the Brewers are always competitive and will always have to find a way to maximize the value of each player. I don't believe in "we can't make a move because we're going for it" or "we're all in" or whatever other cliche about winning a poster would want to use. If you want to be competitive over the long term the idea has to be to maximize the return on potential impact players which you are able to develop. All around baseball starters are converted into closers by short sighted teams like the Reds and Chapman or the Red Sox and Papelbon on a regular basis, as if the closer has some mystical value beyond the 60 innings they pitch in a year. I'd much rather go the Gagne route, progress a pitcher as far as you can as a starter and if he proves he's not a good fit for the rotation then he can hopefully become a dominant reliever. Of course closers like being closers because they get paid like starting pitchers to pitch only in a completely arbitrary set of circumstances 1 inning at a time and get to relish in all the fan fare that comes with it. That's a pretty darn good life, I've had the opportunity to sit and talk with a former MLB closer from the modern era and hear about it first hand, but that's not the best case scenario from the team's perspective. As a general rule I'm never in favor of holding any player back for someone who has no long term future with the team. I made the argument with Hardy, I'm making the argument now in this thread, I'm sure I'll make the argument in the future. Hardy was my favorite Brewer of all time, he's the only Brewer I own any memorabilia of, this isn't a sentimental over attachment to prospects or players on the MLB roster, I view it as a necessity to keep the team relevant over the long term. I would trade Estrada for top 20 prospect right now if I could, but I know the team won't do that, which is why I suggest swapping the 2 pitchers to see if Thornburg is a legit starting pitcher or not. Again I understand this isn't how MLB baseball teams generally operate, nor have the Brewers operated in the manner I'm suggesting in the past. However I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to run Thornburg out there as a reliever for 2 years simply because there are established pitchers in front of him. It would be one thing if we were talking about him sitting behind another mid 20s player who should have long-term future with the team, if we were in the same situation as TB I'd have no problem with Thornburg in the pen. However we aren't, 3 of our starters are 30 years old or older, and 3 of them are only under team control this year and next. He could potentially end up in the rotation if/when someone goes on the DL, but 2-3 starts here and there doesn't really excite me either, we've already seen what he can do in a small sample starting.

Coulter just hit a grand slam that went over the berm beyond the LF wall on a 3-1 pitch that was belt to letter high, T-Rats up 4-1.

2014 Draft Update: Change At The Top As Pitchers Dominate

2014 Draft Update Chat With John Manuel and Clint Longenecker

Redbirds' Taveras heats up after cool start

Tribe's Polanco extends hit streak to eight

Sounds Edged In Home Opener, 5-4 Caleb Gindl Homers, Moves Up On Nashville's All-Time Hits List Nashville Sounds http://www.milb.com/assets/images/5/6/8/71780568/cuts/DSC_0131_Large_r2z0rebg_t6gysu1p.JPG (America Leon) NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Despite scoring four late runs, the Nashville Sounds took a loss in their home opener Friday night at Herschel Greer Stadium, falling 5-4 to the reigning PCL Champion Omaha Storm Chasers. Outfielder Caleb Gindl, two-for-three, pulled the Sounds to within one run in the eighth inning with a towering home run that landed atop the visitor's clubhouse beyond the right-centerfield wall, but the dinger marked the Sounds final run. Gindl's homer is his first of the season and came off Omaha's right-handed pitcher Spencer Patton. Gindl recorded a single in the first inning to give him sole possession of 7th place on the Sounds' all-time hits list with 357 knocks, passing Mike Robertson. His homer in the eighth upped his total to 358. Early on, Omaha jumped out to a 3-0 lead, scoring one run in the second inning and two in the third off of Sounds starting pitcher Hiram Burgos (0-2). The Chasers' first run came on a pair of doubles; the second on a bases-loaded fielder's choice ground out; and the third via Paulo Orlando's single into left field. Burgos finished with the loss, his second, allowing three runs on five hits and three walks over 4 2/3 innings of work. The right-hander fanned five Storm Chasers before reliever Kyle Heckathorn stepped in to close out the fifth. Heckathorn offered Omaha two walks and an infield single to start out the sixth inning, before shortstop Christian Colon lifted a two-run double into left field to give Omaha the five-run advantage. Omaha starting pitcher Sugar Ray Marimon (1-0) limited the Sounds to two hits though five scoreless innings to pick up the win in his Triple-A debut. Following Marimon's exit, the Sounds worked three runs off of reliever Aaron Brooks in the home half of the sixth inning, making it a two-run contest. The Sounds loaded the bases on two hits and a walk, which set the table for a patient Hunter Morris, who drew a walk from Brooks for the Sounds' first run of the game. Infielder Taylor Green followed with a two-run single into left field to score Caleb Gindl and Sean Halton. Sounds reliever Dustin Molleken pitched a scoreless pair of innings, while Donovan Hand and Michael Blazek each followed with a spotless frame. Houston Greer - the grandson of the stadium's namesake Herschel Greer - threw out the ceremonial first pitch before the game to help the Sounds usher in their 37th and final season on Chestnut St. The Sounds play the second game of a four-game series against the reigning PCL Champion Omaha Storm Chasers (AAA-Royals) Saturday at 6:35 p.m. Nashville sends RHP Ariel Pena (0-0, 1.80) to the hill opposite the Chasers RHP Brett Tomko (1-0, 1.50). Sounds broadcaster Jeff Hem has the call on 94.9-FM "GAME 2". Nashville Boxscore In addition to Caleb Gindl's multi-hit effort Sean Halton (2-4,2B) also had a nice game. Nashville Recap I switched over from the T-Rats postgame in time to hear the opposing manager get ejected with a 4 run lead after the Hunter Morris walk, that's a rare occurrence. Nashville Bottom of the 6th Pitching Change: Aaron Brooks replaces Sugar Ray Marimon. Kevin Mattison singles on a fly ball to center fielder Brett Eibner. Eugenio Velez grounds into a force out, third baseman Jason Donald to second baseman Jimmy Paredes. Kevin Mattison out at 2nd. Eugenio Velez to 1st. Caleb Gindl walks. Eugenio Velez to 2nd. Sean Halton singles on a ground ball to left fielder Brian Fletcher. Eugenio Velez to 3rd. Caleb Gindl to 2nd. Hunter Morris walks. Eugenio Velez scores. Caleb Gindl to 3rd. Sean Halton to 2nd. Omaha Storm Chasers Manager Brian Poldberg ejected by HP umpire Chris Segal. Hector Gomez pops out to first baseman Matt Fields in foul territory. Taylor Green singles on a ground ball to left fielder Brian Fletcher. Caleb Gindl scores. Sean Halton scores. Hunter Morris to 3rd. Taylor Green to 2nd on the throw. Irving Falu grounds out, second baseman Jimmy Paredes to first baseman Matt Fields. Nashville Gameday

South Bend edges Rattlers, 4-3 Denson and Ratterree homer for Wisconsin By Chris Mehring / Wisconsin Timber Rattlers SOUTH BEND, IN - The Wisconsin Timber Rattlers are still trying to solve the South Bend Silver Hawks. Wisconsin jumped out to a 3-0 lead on a pair of early home runs Friday night at Four Winds Field. But, the Hawks rallied to defeat the Rattlers 4-3. South Bend has beaten Wisconsin seven straight times dating back to the 2012 season. David Denson put the Timber Rattlers (4-4) up in the top of the second inning. Jose Pena reached on an error to start the inning. Denson stepped in with one out and hammered a 2-2 pitch from Adam Miller to center for his first home run of the season. The blast made it 2-0 Wisconsin. Wisconsin used the long ball to go up 3-0 in the top of the third. Michael Ratterree launched an 0-2 pitch from Miller way over the wall in left for his first home run of the season. The Rattlers had an opportunity to tack on runs after the homer by Ratterree. Pena singled and Clint Coulter drew a walk. Miller would retire the next three batters and the Rattlers lead remained 3-0. That three run lead did not last long for Wisconsin. South Bend (4-4) got to Rattlers starting pitcher Anthony Banda for a pair of runs in the bottom of the third, but slick defense kept the Hawks from tying the game. Stryker Trahan tripled into the right field corner with one out and runners on second and third to drive in a pair of runs. Banda struck out Daniel Palka on a pitch in the dirt and Coulter, the catcher, had to throw down to first to retire Palka. Trahan took off for the plate to try to score as soon as Coulter threw to first. But, Denson caught the ball for the out and fired back to Coulter, who dropped the tag on Trahan to complete the double play to end the third inning. The Silver Hawks took the lead in the bottom of the fourth with two runs. Michael Perez started the rally with a one out double and moved to second on a wild pitch. George Roberts knocked in Perez with a single to tie the game. Later in the inning, Roberts scored from third when the Timber Rattlers couldn't turn a 6-4-3 double play on a slow chopper to short. South Bend reliever Johnny Omahen came out of the bullpen and struck out seven Rattlers over three scoreless, hitless innings to protect the one run lead. Wisconsin threatened with two outs in the top of the eighth. JR Bradley hit Steve Halcomb with two outs and nobody on base. Angel Ortega chopped a double down the line in left to put runners at second and third. Bradley got the final out of the inning to keep the Silver Hawks in front. Chris McFarland singled with one out in the ninth against South Bend closer Daniel Gibson. Ratterree worked the count to 3-2, but struck out for the second out as McFarland stole second base. Gibson got the final out by getting Pena to ground out to third. Victor Diaz, who relieved Banda to start the sixth inning, tossed three scoreless innings, allowed one hit, walked one, and struck out three. Game two of the series is scheduled for Saturday night. Preston Gainey (0-0, 0.00) is the scheduled starting pitcher for the Timber Rattlers. South Bend sends Blake Perry (0-0, 7.20) to the mound. Game time is 6:05pm CDT. Tune in for the broadcast on AM1280, WNAM or IHeartRadio for the pregame at 5:45pm CDT. HOME RUNS: WIS: David Denson (1st, 1 on in 2nd inning off Adam Miller, 1 out) Michael Ratterree (1st, 0 on in 3rd inning off Adam Miller, 0 out) WP: Johnny Omahen (1-0) LP: Anthony Banda (0-2) SAVE: Daniel Gibson (2) TIME: 2:33 ATTN: 2,558 Wisconsin Boxscore I'll start this off with something I didn't know about Mr. Mehring, he worked in independent ball for 7 (I think) years. He's come a long way from indy ball to now hosting one of the most read MiLB blogs, he's a machine. The T-Rats had plenty of opportunities in this game, with 7 hits, 2 HR, 2 BB, 3 HBP, 1 E, 1PB, and 3 WPs to nab extra bases, but unfortunately only managed the 3 runs. Chris McFarland had the only multi hit game (2-5) and the XBHs were all accounted for in the game story. Victor Diaz was mostly 92-93 on the stadium gun according to Chris. Wisconsin Recap Not mentioned in the game story, the T-Rats left the bases loaded in the 2nd after Denson's HR. Wisconsin Top of the 2nd Jose Pena reaches on a fielding error by shortstop Andrew Velazquez. Clint Coulter flies out to right fielder Colin Bray. David Denson homers (1) on a fly ball to center field. Jose Pena scores. Steven Halcomb grounds out, shortstop Andrew Velazquez to first baseman George Roberts. Angel Ortega hit by pitch. Johnny Davis singles on a ground ball to pitcher Adam Miller. Angel Ortega to 2nd. With Omar Garcia batting, wild pitch by Adam Miller, Angel Ortega to 3rd. Johnny Davis to 2nd. Omar Garcia walks. Christopher McFarland flies out to right fielder Colin Bray. Early season Rattler fun fact, the catchers have accounted for exactly half of the team's caught stealings, Neda has 1 and Coulter now has 2. Not a statistic you expect to see... Wisconsin Top of the 5th Pitching Change: John Omahen replaces Adam Miller. Jose Pena strikes out swinging. Clint Coulter hit by pitch. David Denson strikes out swinging and Clint Coulter caught stealing 2nd, catcher Michael Perez to shortstop Andrew Velazquez.

No, he's 92-93 as a starter, has been since early in his MiLB career, he's always topped out around 96. BA Draft Report: Yes 158 pitches is insane, college coaches are horrible. BA 2010: BA 2011: BA 2012: Every report of course mentioned that his demeanor, delivery, stature, and stuff might be better suited to relief. I always lean the other way, make a guy a starter until he proves otherwise, ending up a reliever isn't the preferred outcome for any pitcher, it's the fallback solution.

Baseball America thinks so... From the chat...

I had a post with all kinds of examples from my past interactions, but I'm going to go a different route. I don't necessarily believe showcases are the problem, I think specializing and playing year round is the problem. There are far too many well intentioned but selfish and narrow minded people involved in athletics from parents to coaches. They simply don't have the big picture and are viewing things through a very small window; teaching kids poor techniques, not understanding the injury risks, thinking that playing a sport year round will make them *that* much better, and ultimately riding them too hard or far in pursuit of goal, team orientated or not. People have been throwing wrong with poor mechanics for a hundred years but in the past our kids were encouraged to play multiple sports, so their arms got a break from the incredibly unergonomic motion of a throwing a ball overhand. Now that we have ill informed adults promoting specialization you have kids playing a single sport all year round. In the case of of baseball, the arm and ligaments never get an extended break so they don't get time to rest and rehabilitate themselves. The wear and tear just builds up over time and too many kids are having to go under the knife way too young. I still find it a tad amazing that QBs can throw a much heavier ball, making over 60+ throws a day in addition to their warm-up, but you rarely have shoulder or elbow issues and yet baseball won't get on board with the idea that maybe they've been doing something wrong all along. There is a right way and wrong way to throw a ball, and most people coaching these young athletes who are playing year round simply don't know enough to teach them properly. Poor mechanics coupled with specializing and throwing year round is the root cause here. There are literally at least a dozen reasons why pushing any kid, male or female, to specialize in any sport is the wrong thing to do. If they are that unique an athlete someone is going to identify them later on and they'll have a chance to specialize in college. I personally have always pushed our boys and girls to play 3 sports, to be active in sports (but different sports with different players and coaches) during the school year, but take time in summer to unwind and just be a kid. I understand in certain families a 3 sport dynamic isn't possible, especially with the modern "pay to play" model even at public schools. However, as adults we have the responsibility to push our children to be in situations where they can be challenged, not just where they feel "most comfortable". Over the years I've witnessed far too many well intentioned parents and coaches pushing kids to specialize who had no real chance of getting to the next level. The reasons always vary but the core issues are essentially the same in every case. The irony here is that pitchers can be the most unathletic athletes in professional sports... Ben Sheets could hardly run to 1st, he ran with a waddle, but he had a big arm and could throw strikes. If you have the arm, you don't have to throw year round, you're velocity will come as you age and someone, somewhere is going to find you. If I were scout I would do my due diligence, but I'd be much more interested in multi sport athletes, and that's why I'm usually excited when the Brewers draft that kind of young man, even if they don't make it like a Mark Rogers. I'd want competitors and athletes first, letting the chips fall where they may with the rest.

Plenty of divisional notes including Arodys Vizcaino of the Cubs and his impressive return to action this week. Minor League Roundup: It’s Friday, Friday

2 HS position players and a college pitcher profiled. Draft Tracker: April 11

I would agree that the team could move Gallardo, Estrada, or Lohse to make room for Nelson and Thornburg, but outside of moving Overbay for Fielder when has that really ever been done by DM and MA? The Brewers typically only sell when they absolutely have to like they did with Greinke. They will pickup Gallardo's option year for 2015, Estrada and Lohse aren't FAs until 2016. I've said it before the simple solution here should be to flip the roles of Thornburg and Estrada. Marco shouldn't have a future with the Brewers, he'll be a FA for his 32 year old season, he has a very average FB, and he's had a history of health issues. He's the most replaceable part the Brewers have. That doesn't take anything away from what he does on the mound, he's a good pitcher, but the reality is that there is no way the Brewers should extend him, so he shouldn't be part of the Brewers' future. Thornburg could be a key part of the future, we don't know yet, but then again you can't really wait to find out either as I pointed out in my earlier post. If Thornburg doesn't work out as a starter you can always flip them back around and continue to move forward. The Brewers don't always have to be in a desperate situation where they don't have another option but to try a guy, this is a perfect opportunity with a strong offense and multiple fall back options to let both Peralta and Thornburg go. It's a rational and logical move that works in both the short and the long term. I completely understand that something like this runs contrary to what most teams and the Brewers have historically done, but again I don't believe that baseball really excels at developing their talent either. They play a ton of games with very little practice time and do things because that's the way they've always been done. Flipping Estrada and Thornburg doesn't make the Brewers less competitive in the short term and gives the Brewers insight into their future plans, it's a win/win if Tyler can pitch around 4 ERA, which he is perfectly capable of doing. Of course he could be worse that, and if he's significantly worse and starts hurting the team, then you just reverse the roles and move on, but we won't really know unless they let him try. Way too often there is an assumption that the established player will significantly out-perform the prospect, and I just don't think that the marginal difference even when that statement is true is the tragedy people have made it out to be. Also, the Brewers literally have a ton of legitimate relief prospects, some with as big of arms as Tyler, wasting away in AA and A+ again because Melvin signed a plethora of 28+ year olds for Nashville's(AAA) bullpen. This created a tremendous logjam all the way down the chain. It makes no sense for any of those prospects to be repeating levels they already dominated. It was hypothesized that the Brewers went all veteran at AAA and AA simply to try and retain the affiliations with winning ball clubs because both Nashville and Huntsville(Biloxi next year) are finally getting modern state of the art stadiums and facilities. Only the prospects would likely out pitch these older veteran guys regardless, and the prospects will also make a positive impact in Milwaukee down the road unlike the "never was" currently eating up roster space in AAA. This notion that the Brewers management favors veterans wasn't pulled out of thin air, it wasn't made up on a whim, it's been repeatedly demonstrated through every level of the organization. edit. I meant to add that neither Thornburg or Nelson is a super prospect like Fielder was, where there was an obvious move that needed to be made, which I don't think that's a likely scenario.

Tyrone Taylor in the team photo! Prospect Hot Sheet (April 11): Pederson’s Tool Set Plays At Triple-A (VIDEO) IN THE TEAM PHOTO Tyrone Taylor, cf, Brewers. Milwaukee could use some good news out of its farm system. Taylor’s hot start for high Class A Brevard County has helped, as the 20-year-old is hitting .321/.406/.571 with seven doubles through seven games.

Still catching up but Ben Lively was a 4th round selection of the Reds last year. Lively near perfect in Cal League debut

Also missed this earlier in the week, I posted an article in the off-season thread about Michael Lorenzen of the Reds, last year's 1st round (38th) selection. The Stars will see him this season. Lorenzen finds routine in the rotation

Missed this earlier in the week. Kyle Helisek was a 30th round pick of the Cards in 2012. Helisek puts up zeros in FSL debut

Many here will remember Darren, hopefully he has a speedy recovery. Fresno's Ford carted off field after collision

Ya, the Memphis outfield is loaded, I hate being jealous of the Cards. Piscotty, Redbirds pack offensive punch

Oddly they posted the chat before the actual Hot Sheet. Here's the link to the chat. Prospect Hot Sheet Chat With Matt Eddy (April 11)

Price closed for the Rays during the playoffs in 2008 after being the #1 overall pick in the 2007 draft... and the Rays bringing him up for the playoffs didn't negatively affect his service time. I don't expect everyone to agree with my point of view, but I would like everyone to at least acknowledge that there are larger issues in play here than "he's pitching well out of the pen let's leave him there". I get that for many posters they are going to try simplify all of this down to 1 issue, how do I get the best possible team in 2014? I honestly don't think it's that simple, there are literally dozens of different angles to look at from any number of situations. For example one of the problems with pitching Thornburg out of the pen for 2 years is that when you need him for the rotation you aren't really sure what you have... if he turns out to be a good starter you're already up against arbitration and he becomes much more expensive to extend (if he's willing). You could extend him now I suppose, but even though I've been on the Thornburg bandwagon for a long time, since I saw the video of him flipping over a fence to catch a ball in RF, I'm not willing to say what kind of starter he'll ultimately end up being. So what exactly is his value, what kind of contract are looking at, and how do you try to sell it to him? As a reliever? As a starter? If you give him a Gallardo deal you'd better be damn sure he's a #2, but if he's pitching out of the pen how do you really know? That's just one issue with multiple variables, there are also developmental and service time issues to consider. I can certainly understand and sympathize with the "keep it simple" perspective however roster construction and organization building are anything but. There are multiple layers and a much wider view that needs to be considered than "is a player flourishing in his current role?", the most basic of those would be is his current role his best possible role? Now multiply all those factors across not just Thornburg, but every player on the roster and the situation gets incredibly more grey. Some positions are going to be black and white, they will be simple like Gomez in CF, others not so much, but as a whole it's a very complex and fluid situation. Unfortunately given the financial constraints that come with being in the league's smallest market roster management for the Brewers is never going to be black and white. I don't know that it really can be for any team as much they may try to make it so, but definitely not here in Milwaukee where tough decisions need to be made about who to keep, who to bring in, and who to let walk every single year.

May I ask why? Starters are more valuable than relievers, wouldn't we want our best pitchers pitching as many innings as possible?