TheCrew07

With pitching carrying a heavy value, and 2 MLB ready pitchers in the deal, it's pretty solid, but you're right, not Teixeira changing the franchise good.

I must have disconnected myself from the team over the last week... I'm in "whatever" mode with the big club at the moment. In past years I had dreams, good and bad about the Brewers, none this season so far. I spent the night dreaming about downed power lines zapping people for some reason. I will typically fall asleep to a movie and my dreams will be tied to the movie or whatever is on TV, last night was Kung Fu Panda though, nothing power line related in that movie at all, so I have no idea where the whole concept came from.

Adam Stern another MiLB pickup is quietly having an excellent season for Huntsville while they waited on Lo Cain, he's a Lefty at the plate, he might have shown enough to get a Spring Training invite next season.

Hehe *sigh*... I guess we can cross Buchholz and Bowden off the list... why wouldn't Toronto accept that offer on the spot?

Boo... this is the type of deal I wouldn't mind Melvin making, a LHP with a low 90s FB that has good movement who knows how to pitch.

The Jays would have laughed at us if we asked for Marcum for Overbay though. We got a good deal by getting Bush as it is, there is no way we get their better prospects for a mediocre 1B.Maybe in your opinion... but they gave us Bush (a 2nd round pick '02 out of Wake Forest), Gross (1st round pick '01 out of Auburn), and Jackson (1st round pick '04 out of Texas A&M). Granted Bush and Jackson weren't "upside" picks like the Brewers tend to make, but they were marquee players from 3 previous drafts, and Jackson was the 1st round pick the year before. Marcum was a 3rd round pick in 2003 out of Missouri State, McGowan was a 1st round selection out of HS in 2000. Marcum's fastball is only a tick better than Bush's, he was an 89-91 MPH kind of guy, but I love his change, and the Brewers love change-ups. McGowan is your prototypical projectable pitcher... he has frame, velocity, and stuff. It took him a while to reign in his control, but I liked what he had going on last season. The Brewers have had success simplifying the mechanics of pitchers like that in the past. Marcum's ceiling after developing his change was that of a #2, I think he's a real solid #3 at his worst. Bush and Jackson were 3s at best based on stuff, more likely 4s (pitchability aside). It's not like Melvin would have been asking for Lincecum, he took the guy with the most MLB experience he could get in Bush and Toronto's previous #1 pick. I think at that time the trade was made Overbay was your typical proven commodity and he could have acquired Marcum or McGowan for that package, remember that Melvin also sent a Brewer's MiLB pitcher in that deal. Again Melvin got the previous year's first round pick in Jackson, I don't think it's a stretch to think he could have landed Marcum or McGowan if he'd gone a different direction. I'm not sure if it was Melvin, the scouts, or both that missed the boat in that Toronto trade, but I believe that both players I mentioned were there for the taking if we wanted them.

That's alright, Cain should be ready by 2011... and if the Brewers could somehow acquire the pitcher whom I've wanted all along in Shields I'd be absolutely thrilled.

Why does it have to be a FA pitcher? Why not a prospect currently tearing up AA who's projectable?

Since no one has been able to establish a way to measure how many pitches any given arm has in it, why not err on the side of caution while you are developing a guy? Is there some overwhelming need to push them as far as they can possibly go? Wouldn't the Cubs have been better off with a healthy Kerry Wood pitching in the rotation every season? Or the Brewers getting more than 61 IP out of Neugy's entire career? It's not about pinpointing an exact number of pitches per inning, game, or per season for an individual pitcher, it's about trying to get pitchers through their age 25 season healthy and effective. Until a player reaches physical maturity they are at significant risk for injury, how much sense does it make to push the envelope with a devleoping arm? When you have a pitcher who's already at high risk because of his age, why would you ever want to risk pushing him to fatigue? It doesn't matter if 20 IP is arbitrary or not because it's been proven effective. We aren't talking about Suppan, Looper, or Bush... we're talking about young men who are still building into their careers. There are 2 different and distinct groups of players here, and the rules should not be the same for both sets of players. How many young promising pitchers have blown out their arms due to abuse over the years? Particularily post expansion in the 70s? 200 IP isn't necessarily arbitrary, most players don't get to that threshold anymore... once a player gets there, in theory they are about 24 years old and have been slowly stretched out, so their development IP wise is completed. I don't have a problem with a pitcher jumping from 200 to 240 IP has he reaches his peak. I just don't think it's fair to compare Yo to other established pitchers around the league, when he's never had the opportunity to pitch a full MLB season yet. At this point in time Braun isn't the franchise, Gallardo is the franchise, he's our only starting pitcher of significance all the way down to A+.

Or maybe it had something to do with Wood going from 114 IP in '96, to 151 IP in '97, to 166 by Aug 31, 2008 (on pace to break 200 IP) and then on the shelf for surgery. Maybe it was Prior pitching 167.2 IP in his first professional season, following that season with 211.2? His career high in IP had been 138 for USC in 2001. Maybe it was Neugebauer going from 80 IP in his debut as an 18 year old to 130 IP in his second season? In his 3rd season he made it to August pitching 6 innings for Milwaukee, then was shut down for injury. In 2002 he made it to May 8th before being shutdown, came back in Sept, made the last start of his career on Sept 24, 2002 going 2.2 IP before being shutdown again. Neugy's issues actually led me to find Brewerfan.net as I hoping we had another pitching prospect close to MLB. Maybe, just maybe it's best to slowly build up young pitchers to the 200 IP threshold jumping 20 IP per season to protect their arms and the team's investment, then once they get there let them go wild... then again, maybe all the work that's been put into the injury nexus the last 10 years is meaningless...

Innings are generally used as a pitch approximation by us little people. The whole point is that we don't know exactly what Yo's arm can take, so are the 20 extra innings worth it when we are in 4th place in our own division and a game below .500? The team isn't out of it yet, but they've been on a steady decline for the past 6 weeks. Isn't Yo's long-term more important to this franchise than an extra 20-30 innings this season? Learn from the mistakes of the past, like Neugebauer for the Brewers... or Prior and Wood for the Cubs. Was that one playoff appearance the Cubs rode Prior and Wood to more important than getting 6 full healthy seasons out of each pitcher? How good would the Cubs have been with Zambrano, Wood, and Prior in the rotation all this time? How bad is our rotation without Yo?

I've taken Z to task numerous times for the lack of pitching depth in the organization but Melvin was ultimately in a position to fix that issue. The team had hit on enough hitters that he had options available to acquire a starter... but looking at his deals because he takes back MLB talent it limits the upside he's going to get in prospects. For example, when Melvin traded Overbay to Toronto he plucked Bush and Jackson but left Marcum and McGowan in the system who had terrific seasons in the minors, both had a taste in the majors already, and Marcum started 14 games for Toronto in 2006. Injuries aside, I would have settled for one of Marcum or McGowan over Gross, Jackson, and Bush. I have nothing against Bush, I especially like his demeanor on the mound, but he's not an elite talent. If either still would have gotten injured down the stretch last season we wouldn't have had them anyway for this season, but we wouldn't have to make a move to be in better shape for next season either. Maybe one of them is on the mound for that fateful game at Wrigley instead of Yo, then Yo doesn't hurt... I don't have an accurate way to predict what the domino effect would have been other to point out that there have been opportunities to acquire a stud young pitcher and he's passed them bye. edit. The difference here is probably that people tend to assume he got "best" deal he could when making trades... I don't think that's necessarily true. He got the best deal for MLB talent that he could, but he bypassed superior talent to get MLB pieces. The more I think about the Overbay trade the last year or so, the more I dislike it. I would have loved our rotation coming into last season with Sheets, Marcum, Yo, and Parra... and I'd feel pretty good about 2010 having Marcum, Yo, and Parra.

X was talking about top of the rotation starting pitchers... as was I. He hasn't acquired a single long-term top of the rotation starter through a Trade or Free Agency since he's been here. The closest he's came was JDLR all the way back in 2003 who couldn't throw strikes until last season for the Rockies and may have finally salvaged his career. Good for him, bad for us.

1 good young pitcher and I like the team quite a bit coming into next season, 2 would be really nice, but I'm not sure that's possible. I'd like some depth in case Bush doesn't come back effective. If he does and we can somehow get 2 quality pitchers, punt Suppan to the pen for his final season in Milwaukee and go with 4 younger guys plus Bush.

Arnett... cripes... an error and 2 BBs load the bases against him in the first. He nibbled too much on his firt BB, and didn't even challenge the hitter at for his second BB... he clearly pitched around the hitter.

Dykstra and Frederickson

I'd buy them a beer... and a tank top.

Interestingly enough, even though Gindl has 4 HR in his last 10 games, he's also only hitting .189... Rivas gives up another HR in an otherwise excellent start. Schafer now with 2 hits. Errecart, Brewer, and Miranda all have a 2B, but BC still down 0-1 in the 6th.

After 2 busy weeks I'm able to settle in and listen to some MiLB ball again. Meadows gave a up HR (I believe) in the first, the T-Rats audio is crappy tonight, in and out. Rivas was pitching well last time I looked in, it's about time he starts getting some love. Narron just gave up the lead and Nashville is down 4-3. Escobar hitless and Gamel with a Hit and RBI. No multihit games in the organization thus far tonight.

His Curve Ball sure does, I still like his change.

When they rest a pitcher in that manner you'll have a case, until then you're grasping at straws trying to justify a course of action for which there isn't justification.

It doesn't work that way, there are 3 different levels of fatigue a team needs to be concerned with... pitches in an inning, pitches in a game, pitches in a season.

what about the cumulative workload?

Thank you, so this doesnt apply to anyone in particular.It doesn't apply to anyone in particular because we don't know when exactly each individual pitcher will reach physical maturity. The point should be what exactly are we risking Yo's future for this season? Not, well there's a chance he can handle the workload so it's all good. When he's your only premium pitcher, is the risk worth the reward this season? I absolutely agree that 100 pitches is arbitrary and that the threshold for fully developed arms should be different that developing arms, I've made that argument myself numerous times attacking lame PAP. Yo isn't a fully developed pitcher though, he's never pitched a full MLB season before, and he only pitched 24 innings last season. Err on the side of caution I say...

I literally linked half a dozen articles on this topic in another thread. On average, injury risk decreases until a pitcher is 24, then slowly starts increasing. Each pitch does not carry the same injury risk... every pitch past the fatigue point exponentially increasing the risk of the injury. The big issue with Gallardo was his innings jump in his previous season to 190ish, then not pitching but 24 innings last season. It's an issue of being stretched out enough to handle the workload. I have no desire to have Yo go the way of Prior, Wood, or Neugebauer.