Craig Counsell needs to move to the coaching staff and off active roster (Hitless streak snapped, reply #105)

[fondybrewfan]

Counsell does have some value for his defense but if we are in the World Series and need a hit to force a Game #7 Counsell is probably just about the last person I want to count on to get a hit. I would rather have every member of the starting rotation get a shot first.

[packfan79]

I haven't read the whole thread but is it possible that Melvin is worried about the fan's reaction to the Counsell getting DFA'd? I understand that he is a solid defender on routine plays but he has about as much range as the rest of the infield. I don't think he brings anything to the table at this point and is taking a roster spot from someone that could contribute.

[RockCoCougars]

I just can't believe that Melvin doesn't have the guts to DFA Counsell. He didn't seem to have any problems making 'business decisions' with Hardy, Yost, Cirillo, etc. I can't imagine that bobble head day has anything to do with it- it would be ridiculous if it did. Heck, even Dean Taylor traded Wickman a few days before 'All-Star poster' day. The only thing that I can figure out is that Counsell is a favorite of Attanasio's a la Soup (who hung around about a year longer than he should have).

[young guns]

Counsell does have some value for his defense but if we are in the World Series and need a hit to force a Game #7 Counsell is probably just about the last person I want to count on to get a hit. I would rather have every member of the starting rotation get a shot first.

What if the bases were loaded? /halfblue

[1992casey]

Craig got a hit. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[AdvantageSchneider]

Can't cut him now, he's due for a hot streak.

[istanbultaye]

If I was on the verge of the record myself, I'd want to keep going. Records were made to be broken! (I'm pretty weird though).

 

Personally, I think Craig is just wanting to prove how clutch he is, by waiting until the fateful at bat in which he would tie the record, and hit a walk off home run. Of course, the walkoff part would be tough on the road...

Well, it wasn't a walk-off home run, but he did get a hit in his 46th at bat, like the clutch gamer he is!

[DougJones43]

I haven't read the whole thread but is it possible that Melvin is worried about the fan's reaction to the Counsell getting DFA'd?

The only logical thing I've been able to come up with is that the organization wants to continue to establish a reputation as a good place for veterans to sign. Maybe they feel like ousting Counsell at this point would look bad and hurt their future ability to sign free agents.

[packfan79]

At this point we have to be in win now mode and I can't fathom how Green or Gamel give us a worse chance to win the running Counsell out there. We have defensive replacements up the middle so there is zero upside to him taking a roster spot.

[Mr QL]

Rather keep Counsell than Wilson.

[RyDogg66]

Counsell is going to be here until at least his bobblehead day, and then after that we are only a two weeks away from rosters expanding. He isnt going anywhere.

[Ennder]

I still don't have an issue with Counsell. Sure he hasn't hit this year but he isn't playing much and his defense is still top notch. He still is more valuable than Betancourt even while hitting .150 or whatever.

[Funketown]

Good for Counsell. It's neat to see how hard the rest of the team was rooting for him to get a knock.

 

I could go either way on Counsell. I still think he provides more value to this team than Kotsay. He really should replace Yuni in the 8th and 9th innings of any game where the club has a tight lead.

[The Truth]

Counsell is, to me, still more valuable than Kotsay or Wilson

[RockCoCougars]

I still don't have an issue with Counsell. Sure he hasn't hit this year but he isn't playing much and his defense is still top notch. He still is more valuable than Betancourt even while hitting .150 or whatever.

I strongly disagree. The only thing that he's got Yuni in is defense (but he can't play everyday) and walks (even though he hasn't drawn one to my knowledge for a month and a half). Counsell is just a popular guy for whatever reason with fans. He's got some sort of Rudy mojo going on, because I think a lot of people can relate to him. I didn't hear a soul booing him at the last homestand, any other guy would have gotten booed out of the stadium. The same fans who hated on guys like Royce Clayton, Jason Kendall and Wes Helms dig Counsell. I can't figure it out.

[pebadger]

CC starts at 2B tonight?

[strawbossisevil]

He still is more valuable than Betancourt even while hitting .150 or whatever.

This statement is 100% bollocks. Betancourt is bad at defense, but there is no way that a guy who can´t even get the ball out of the infield on offense, and just about set a modern era record for offensive futility can be equal to Betancourt.

Give Counsell an equal number of at bats as Betancourt, and I think you would be singing a different tune.

The difference between the two on defense is likely 2-3 prevented singles per month. No way that makes up the difference of .100 points of batting average and slugging.

 

[topper09er]

The difference between the two on defense is likely 2-3 prevented singles per month game.

Fixed

[Scooter1027]

He still is more valuable than Betancourt even while hitting .150 or whatever.

This statement is 100% bollocks. Betancourt is bad at defense, but there is no way that a guy who can´t even get the ball out of the infield on offense, and just about set a modern era record for offensive futility can be equal to Betancourt.

Give Counsell an equal number of at bats as Betancourt, and I think you would be singing a different tune.

The difference between the two on defense is likely 2-3 prevented singles per month. No way that makes up the difference of .100 points of batting average and slugging.

 

 

For what it's worth, Fangraphs does have Counsell as being more valuable in terms of WAR than Betancourt. Obviously the defensive data is limited at this point and makes Counsell harder to really evaluate, but the point still stands that Counsell saves runs as an above average SS and Yuni kills us as perhaps the worst regular defensive SS in the league. The gap in their defense is wide enough at this point that Counsell's WAR is actually higher despite hitting .150...that's saying something.

[strawbossisevil]

He still is more valuable than Betancourt even while hitting .150 or whatever.

This statement is 100% bollocks. Betancourt is bad at defense, but there is no way that a guy who can´t even get the ball out of the infield on offense, and just about set a modern era record for offensive futility can be equal to Betancourt.

Give Counsell an equal number of at bats as Betancourt, and I think you would be singing a different tune.

The difference between the two on defense is likely 2-3 prevented singles per month. No way that makes up the difference of .100 points of batting average and slugging.

 

 

For what it's worth, Fangraphs does have Counsell as being more valuable in terms of WAR than Betancourt. Obviously the defensive data is limited at this point and makes Counsell harder to really evaluate, but the point still stands that Counsell saves runs as an above average SS and Yuni kills us as perhaps the worst regular defensive SS in the league. The gap in their defense is wide enough at this point that Counsell's WAR is actually higher despite hitting .150...that's saying something.

That just goes to show that WAR isn't the be-all, end-all in this discussion. It is obvious to anyone with eyes which player gives our team the best opportunity to win.

Also, I'll repeat again. Statistically, the difference between an average (Counsell) and an awful defensive SS (Betancourt) is a few balls per month! That is exactly why I've been pointing out on certain threads that people over-state Betancourt's defensive deficiancies when they make uninformed comments like "he misses two or three balls more per game than the average SS". No he doesn't. People have been anything but objective when actually discussing his deficiencies. He's bad, very bad. But most have no idea what the difference between very bad and average is.

Topper's comment above just shows the level the ridiculousness has gotten to.

 

[1992casey]

This statement is 100% bollocks.

 

Topper's comment above just shows the level the ridiculousness has gotten to.

 

Statements like these are unnecessary. Please address the message rather than attacking the messenger.

[Baldkin]

Counsell now has a 1.000 OPS for August. Ride that heatwave!

[The Truth]

I've been pointing out on certain threads that people over-state Betancourt's defensive deficiancies when they make uninformed comments like "he misses two or three balls more per game than the average SS". No he doesn't. People have been anything but objective when actually discussing his deficiencies. He's bad, very bad. But most have no idea what the difference between very bad and average is.

I don't want to find out the difference between "very bad" and "average" in the 9th inning of a playoff game! That is the very possible reality that scares the heck outta me

[sdcheezhd]

My guess is Colbert will mention Counsell's Colbert bump on the next show.

[GB12]

My guess is Colbert will mention Counsell's Colbert bump on the next show.

I thought the same thing when he got the hit, but it'll be tough for that to make it since it's a Monday and they'll have 3 days worth of news to choose from.