TooLiveBrew

R.I.P. Gary. I hope all of the nice things people are saying about you now were said to you in person.

Execution. Putting pitches where he means to. Just watch where the catcher sets up. Marcum hasn't hit his spots routinely in a while now, and many of the misses have been meatballs. I appreciate as much as anyone (I think) that fans can overreact to bad results. But with Marcum, the bad results haven't been due to just bad luck. They've been due to very bad location, due to very poor command.

how about "catches", including the Pujols 'double'? At least Gomez runs that down, Morgan might have as well.

Epstein didn't have that much left after trading away five prospects. What is your point? The Brewers & Red Sox had the same number of homegrown players on their 2011 rosters. There's nothing to debate here. I'd just like to know who these good prospects are that he traded away. Nowhere has anyone said every single player he drafted was good. This isn't productive anymore.

I've defended and supported Roenicke all year. At this point, I got nothin' If anyone can't see that this team has won in spite of flat-out stupid managerial decisions this year, I don't know what to say.

I'm not making a judgment on his ability to put together a team as much as I am saying he didn't draft all that well. The 2011 rosters don't show that at all, if the comparison is that the Brewers under Melvin did draft well. The number of home-grown players on the '11 rosters under Epstein v. Melvin is literally dead even. I don't hold it against anyone to say that Epstein was overrated, I just don't think there's been any evidence presented (or available, frankly) that the Red Sox didn't draft well under Epstein. The amount of good players turned out of the farm system in his tenure is one reason I think he's a pretty good GM.

He's been there as long as Melvin is here. Which organization did a better job of drafting and developing? - Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon, Bard ... Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury - Gallardo, Axford ... Fielder, Braun, Weeks, Hart, Lucroy I don't see a significant difference (using 2011 rosters), other than that the homegrown talent trended more towards pitching under Epstein in Boston.

It would be SUPER awesome if RR is actually a secret genius and is only using Kotsay as basically a pinch hitter in the top of the 1st and will then put Gomez or Morgan in for defense in the bottom half of the first. Don't you go getting everyone's hopes up. What an awesome idea!

In discussing Epstein to the Cubs & analyzing the Red Sox in recent history, I don't know that BOS can be ruled out as a destination for Fielder. I realize he likely wants to go somewhere where he'll play 1B for at least the first half of whatever deal he winds up signing, but David Ortiz's contract expires after this season. Boston is definitely in win-now mode, will have a new GM & ownership eager to return to the promised land, & they've been burned on their last two big FA pitching signings (Matsuzaka & Lackey). I don't think Boston's one of the most likely destinations, but I certainly don't think they can be automatically ruled out as much as they were during discussions (not just at BF.net) this season. Also, this is one more place Prince winds up that isn't the Cubs. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Trading away prospects that don't pan out is certainly not an indictment of a GM's abilities or performance. If anything, it suggests superior talent evaluation, if you're repeatedly bringing in good production for prospects that don't wind up panning out. I really don't feel informed enough to talk about Epstein's drafting skills. Many GMs around the league make it fairly clear that they are merely a cog in the machine of the drafting & scouting process. Seems like when farm systems turn out good talent, the GM's a good drafter... and if the opposite is true, he sucks at drafting. Maybe both of those assertions are true, but with so many other people involved in drafting, I find that hard to believe. It's probably better (or at least easier) to judge a MLB GM on the trades & FA moves he makes. Epstein certainly has some duds on his resume, but he also has some flat-out excellent moves.

The Ortiz pickup was an incredible move given how much value the Red Sox got from it. It's like one of the waiver wire deals we love Melvin for, except they got HoF-caliber production. Downplaying the impact & payoff of that move by saying it wasn't a big deal at the time is head-scratching to me. If I'm a GM, & there's one move that people wind up using to define me, I'll take the Ortiz signing about every single time. It's the type of FA deal you seem to demand more of for you to consider Epstein a good GM. It feels like, to me, that you're building your argument around the already-decided "Epstein is overrated". I think if you're more fair about it, you see something different. Bill Mueller was a good FA signing, along with Mike Lowell, & Hideki Okajima -- certainly not the big money deals, but all guys that contributed three or so good seasons in Boston. And why limit it to free agency? Josh Beckett, Victor Martinez, Adrian Gonzalez, even Kevin Millar ('traded' by FLA for cash) were big positives on the trade front. It seems like the big, long-term deals he gave out haven't worked, but it's way too early imo to say that about Crawford. Even if you thought (which I know you do from previous posts) that Crawford was overrated coming into it, there's no way you reasonably predict that he'd hit over 60 points worse than his career AVG, & at least 100 OPS points below his career norms. I fully expect Crawford to rebound. Not to be worth the contract, but to play to his career norms. (and yes, I agree it was an unwise deal, much like Fielder's big FA payday will likely wind up being) And why lump Cameron in as a significant Epstein FA failure? Come on -- I know you loathe the dude, but that was a 1-yr. deal that doesn't belong on that list except out of spite. If you count one-yr. deal players, (most recently Adrian Beltre) there were several that also worked out well for Epstein. I don't think Epstein is the greatest GM ever or anything, but to me he looks decidedly above-average given the type of team he was operating. That's certainly more than you can say for Hendry, or any Cubs GM in some time. If Theo does go after Prince, while good for his pocketbook it may not bode well for the rest of his career. I can't disagree that it might not. I also don't think it's necessarily a good idea even if it doesn't wind up costing him his job. Being a GM in the NL now may give him greater pause on signing a DH-type like Fielder, but even with Boston he targeted the far better defender (& long-term projection) in Gonzalez over Prince.

Kotsay in CF is an unforgivably bad move in such a meaningful game & series. I'm basically at a loss for words.

Very good points, Monty. Sadly, I think Fielder is an excellent fit for the Cubs, precisely for the reasons you lay out.

I agree that it'll be a major rebuild, and also that it should be. I would also personally put Soto in the group with Castro & Garza... but I also think that Garza & Soto would be the most prized pieces the Cubs could dangle on the trade market. The Cubs' payroll in 2012 could wind up being roughly $40-50M less than 2011. What they choose to do right away will be very important long-term, imo. Sure, they can afford to go out & bid on Fielder, Pujols, C.J. Wilson, Mark Buehrle, Edwin Jackson, etc. But I think they'd be better served to build around Castro & just start over. As of today, there are some interesting targets in the FA class for 2013, as well... and of course there always seem to be high-priced 'proven' players available in whatever FA season. Plus, if the Cubs focus on rebuilding their farm system, they're also in the position the Red Sox were/are -- able to trade prospects to take on big-money players, like Adrian Gonzalez, whose original or current clubs can no longer afford.

There just isn't much evidence that either should continue to struggle in the post season. Except that his execution & performance have been almost 180 degrees different from what he did most of the season. He doesn't look like the same guy out there right now, physically, and I don't think that's just random noise or variance. He could certainly turn it around, but I'm not holding my breath for it. That said, I don't feel very doom & gloom.

Yes, but the Red Sox had Pedro, Manny and Nomar and more in place. They were a good team from the get go. I don't disagree, but I also don't think that's mutually exclusive to saying Epstein did a good job as GM there.

It's go time. And by that, I of course mean Yo-time.

Look at the rosters for the championship teams. Most of those guys were not Red Sox draftees. They were either bought or traded for. Epstein added a good of pieces, trading prospects for guys like Schilling, etc. He just got very lucky that most of the guys he traded busted out elsewhere. I don't think it was all just luck that the players traded away under him for elite or elite-ish vets didn't pan out. The Braves have been getting credit for making those kinds of trades for decades now, & rightfully so imo. As pointed out above, most of his free agent acquisitions have been brutal, but that's easy to overlook when you have monopoly money to spend. Agreed, I just think a huge-market GM's job is a bit different from someone like Melvin's.

Yeah, or more snarkily, 'what farm system?' I think the best course of action Epstein could take at this point would be a complete rebuild. There's probably never going to be a better time for a complete, blow-it-up type rebuild for the Cubs -- the current MLB team's bad overall & isn't just a couple star players away from contending. Cubs fans & ownership don't have the same win-now-always mentality that you find in Boston or New York, and Theo comes riding in on Shadowfax to save the world of men. He probably has carte blanche, & it's going to be interesting imo to see what he does. By the way, I know this is during the NLCS & all, but discussions like this one are what makes BF.net's forums great. Excellent discussion.

What are the heavy majority of trades*, and what would you want a win-now GM to do? I just find it ironic that a fan of a smaller-market team that sold almost its entire farm system for an all-in season or two would criticize the GM of a huge market team for doing the same, when the big market teams can actually sustain that type of strategy. Also, the Red Sox have been regarded as having a good farm system for basically Epstein's entire tenure iirc. I think the most valid criticism that can be leveled at Epstein is that he oversaw an organization that appeared to embrace PED use (or at least, try to take advantage of it). I'm definitely not happy to see him go the the Cubs, since I think he can rebuild that team into a contender. Fortunately for Brewers fans, they have a long way to go. The amount of money they have coming off the books is scary, and there's going to be some very legit FA talent available this offseason (especially pitching). * EDIT: Thank you jjfanec for examples of the trades RockCo was referring to. I think when you analyze the trades he noted, Epstein & his scouting staff have to get high marks for talent evaluation.

Estrada's not a bad choice. He'd probably be the guy to go after any potentially long rain delay in tonight's game, too.

If it was Cubs-Cards, that just wouldn't be a hard choice for me at all. And not even because I have a lot of family members (both parents from IL) who are diehard Cubs fans & would take as much (if not more) joy from that hypothetical Cubs win as I would from a Brewers win. But because the Cards suck that much.

A million miles away? Man do I hate that song. Didn't take long at all, either. I think I went from "never heard this song before" to "hate/rage any time I hear a note of it" in like a day.

Disclaimer: I don't like the Red Sox. At all. I know smaller market teams' fans (not all of them) like to rag on the huge markets like NY or BOS at almost any opportunity, but I don't know how anyone can be critical of the job Epstein did in Boston. He oversaw a highly-rated farm system (which turned out actual talent/production as well), & put together some incredible teams in the past decade. Yes, he sank a lot of money into huge contracts... some of them worked out, some of them didn't, but such is life as a large-payroll MLB team/GM. Two WS titles in four seasons is nothing short of legendary in present-day MLB. The Red Sox & Phillies will be remembered as the teams in the league for the first decade of the 2000s, and whether anyone likes it or not, Epstein will be remembered as the architect of the Boston teams. Can't wait for him to pillage the farm system and blow his initial allotment of monopoly money on whoever is the 'best free agent available'. I don't expect him to pillage the farm system, since he never did that in Boston. I think the trade for Adrian Gonzalez -- really the only deal I can think of that comes close to selling off prospects in a manner like Melvin did this past offseason -- has to be looked at as a smart move; the Red Sox absolutely should have been in win-now mode heading into the 2011 season. Aside from that move, what 'pillaging' moves did he make?

"Ricketts said he was seeking a general manager who could use the new statistical and analytical data in baseball in conjunction with traditional scouting, a description that fits Epstein." And every other GM in baseball at this point. I chuckled when I read that line. I'd have to imagine Francona will be on the short list to interview on the North Side.