TooLiveBrew

His judgment has been very questionable many times this season, with few being as blatant as tonight. The play at the plate wasn't even close.

I thought the sarcasm was so clear... didn't even think about blue font http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

You're just looking for anything to fit your argument, and dismissing anything that doesn't. You have just made basic, general statements, and been refuted with facts. I don't get it. My guess is that 8 hole hitters in the N.L. also tend to have a higher OBP, because they are often pitched around to get to the pitcher. That's true, and a huge part of why Kendall has anything close to resembling a decent OBP. Guess who leads the team in IBB after Prince? Kendall. Do you Cameron boosters honestly feel good about him coming up to bat in clutch situations? You bet. As someone else said, a good deal of his offensive stats come in games that are already decided. Prove this.

I can't believe Dusty Baker still has a job. He is the most clueless manager I think I have ever seen when it comes to pitching. 1) Promising member of your bullpen (Burton) clearly tweaks his knee. It's 6-1, with one out in the 9th, so you clearly shut him down since you're not playing for anythi... wait, whuuu? You let him pitch? Oh. I guess his knee is "fine, big time" just like Volquez's arm was. 2) Burton is (not surprisingly) ineffective, since, uh, it looked like he might have torn a major ligament in his knee. So you have a save situation now, so you go get your best RP & closer, right? 3) Oh sweet jebus. If anyone needs any more proof that baseball is just an old boys' club, look no further than Dusty Baker managing a MLB squad.

In my mind, drawing walks isn't very indicative of a hitter's offensive prowess. I say this because the pitcher is more attributable to the walk than the hitter. Simply put, the pitcher is not doing their job. What might you guess would make a pitcher less inclined to throw strikes? Perhaps a highly skilled &/or powerful batter? Simply stated, sustaining a high BB rate is usually very indicative of a hitter's offensive prowess.

Jack Z ... drafting bats?! Up is down, left is right!

So that is basically saying that whoever has more homeruns is a more valuable Not at all. SLG is a product of total bases, not HRs. I think its more likely that you're going to score 6 runs with singles and doubles I think you'd be pretty surprised if you looked into that more. There was a great thread on offensive consistency a month or so back, and if you looked back on pages 3 or 4 or so of the ML forum, you'd probably find it. Iirc Homer started it.

I like the stolen base and drunks spiking one another in a rage. There's always more room on the Cardinals bandwagon http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hearing Randolph's comments about him on the broadcast today was really, really exciting. Basically said his arm is better than Jeter's (& I for one have always admired Jeter's arm) when he came up, and the best comparison in terms of foot speed he could make was Jose Reyes.

I'm glad people are enjoying this topic http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif I'll try to get a better list for myself up later today, but basically all of the posts so far have been great.

This is a question I've pondered many times... and yes, I realize this topic might 'date' some posters, but if nothing else perhaps some of the younger crowd could get feedback from people who have seen certain ballplayers in their playing days. I love pouring over the baseball-reference player pages of players I never had the chance to watch play. I'll admit it -- the Mick's page was what finally pushed me over the edge to start this thread. Mantle's performance was simply astonishing, and he'd be on my short list. I guess instead of listing off a huge list of guys, I'll just leave it at Mantle for now. However, I will say that I'd like to 'go back' to see a lot of Negro Leagues action, since many legendary players never saw MLB, or saw it past their primes. Anyway, if anyone else out there is interested in this topic, please go ahead http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif (And yes, this post is probably an indicator of how bored I am at this point with the Brewers' season http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif)

That's awesome. I would have asked for a Hank Aaron signed, game-worn uniform from the 1957 WS.

In the meantime, how sweet was that homer by Alcides today?!? Pretty nice. I hope he had more luck with procuring the HR ball than Chris Coghlan did.

Is that stupid Joe Buck show still on HBO? Did anyone watch the first one the Artie Lange single-handedly turned into a train wreck? Yes, I did. And it sounds like T Bone needs to watch it http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif After suffering through this series at WAS on Extra Innings, anyone with Rob Dibble. Rob Dibble has made these past three games even more miserable. He actually said before Looper's start that 'the important thing is that the team is winning with Looper on the mound... that's what you need to look at for a starting pitcher' (not verbatim, but aside from that precisely what he stated).

The problem of course is that they aren't used in a "fun" manner, information from fangraphs is used as a definitive measure of right and wrong I don't think I use them that way, & I don't think that you use them that way, either. No stat is 100% perfect, but like OPS for batting, I like that WAR & $$ value stats provide a useful look at how players have performed relative to one another. Playing the high BABIP card suggests that a player has been getting lucky, just like the playing the low BABIP card suggests a player has been unlucky (see the why is Hardy getting a free pass thread). I guess to me, that's more the interpretation of the reader. If you view BABIP as 'playing a card', and it 'suggests' something, I guess your view is that there's some motive behind it which isn't necessarily there. Look at the McGehee thread today and you'll see BABIP regression analysis. I have no problem believing that Gamel is more talented than McGehee and should have been playing at 3B while McGehee and Counsell played second, I argued for it myself However McGehee falling off some isn't a result of a high BABIP, it's a function of how difficult it is to consistently play this game at a high level. Yes, I made a comment to that end, and in no way implied his "Level 17 BABIP talent" http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif would fade. I followed up on comments from earlier in the season that McGehee's production would likely drop because it's difficult to sustain BABIP at the level he was in the first half (somewhere around .350). Things happen... teams scout you better, you get dinged up, etc. Production inflated heavily by a high BABIP just doesn't tend to last, and again like you're saying, it's for numerous reasons (& I know you're obv. aware that BABIPs don't tend to stay up around .350, but it seems odd for me to respond & omit that element). I think we're just having the same discussion here in consecutive posts, so I don't think I have any more to add on this topic.

Things uglier than the Brewers' pitching this season: http://kamaladolphinkingsley.com/otisblog/images/sam-ugliest-dog-web.jpg http://www.ugliestdogs.net/sitebuilder/images/ShowLetter_1_-465x309.jpg http://sportsmaven.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/cubs-win-9-28-07.jpg http://www.totalprosports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/brett-favre-rumored-to-the-vikings.jpg I had a little bit of fun doing that, so I guess in that sense I'm still enjoying myself.

The dollar value is an extrapolation of WAR... why not just stick to WAR than some unrealistic meaningless value? The dollar value doesn't work well because of the sliding scale of economy in baseball, many teams in baseball have to operate on a cost controlled basis. Yes, and that is what I addressed. I understand that Cameon won't get $18M, that's really not the point. The point is to try to provide some monetary context for player value. The idea is 'in a vacuum', and that's how they should be used -- as relative, comparative numbers. Why not just use WAR? I don't know, really I don't care -- use whatever you like best. To me FanGraphs's monetary values are fun comparative stats that imo do a solid job of giving relative value. And fwiw, they have been spot-on on some FA deals in recent years in terms of dollars & years, so the monetary values are in fact using similar criteria to many MLB clubs. I'm not even sold that WAR is "spot on", but it's a simple way for me to compare value when discussing trades. And that's exactly how I think the dollar values should be used. Why do you care if that's how I see value in them? It's all just relative comparison anyway, which is why I said, "The point is to put total production (even including defense) into perspective, which is what those dollar value rankings do, and quite well imho" EDIT: I like advanced statistics but people get way too carried with them sometimes. It's like a player who has a crappy BABIP like Lucroy most of the season... if you're a hitting coach are going to tell him, "Don't worry, your BABIP will move towards the mean and you'll start getting hits again" or will you sit down and break down video and see what's going on with his swing? I have never, ever seen anyone state anything like you're claiming here. BABIP tends to work out to career norms. I can't think of anyone that claims it's a cause as opposed to an effect. It's just wise observation to point out that BABIPs tend to wind up around career norms, and of course like you said it's due to guys studying film & opponents (both pitchers & hitters).

Isn't that what they do at Fangraphs?Yes. (I want to clarify this is not a shot at LouisEly...) And I think that's why it's so frustrating to me when people make comments about how relatively useless those dollar values are, bc 'no one's giving Mike Cameron $18M'. The point is to put total production (even including defense) into perspective, which is what those dollar value rankings do, and quite well imho.

Somewhere like Boston or New York, he'd just be another very good player on a team full of All-Stars. I get the general point here, but it's a complete disservice to Prince's talent & production to say he wouldn't stand out on any team. This guy has been in the top 5 best hitters in MLB basically all season long, and would instantly be the best bat for either NYY or BOS.

The real McGehee is probably a .340/.440/.780 hitter And this is why it still burns me up that he was allowed to block Gamel. What was gained? He was played enough that his knee wore down... so now our top hitting prospect has his confidence completely erased, all so a journeyman can get a few more ABs, and said journeyman is injured to the point of needing major surgery in the offseason. Awesome. He's also not a "Sell High" guy yet. His value has risen, but not anywhere near the level it would be if he kept up his current numbers over 3 or 400 more AB's I think it's safe to say his high BABIP had a ton to do with his early season success, and not just "centering on the ball". More playing time & his numbers have leveled off, exactly like many on this forum predicted.

Stuck with Dibble for all three games this series. The guy is just awful. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

The move they have to make is Weeks to CF That's a really poor idea at this point imo. Weeks has finally turned himself into a good defender at 2B (at least for what he got to play this season), and hasn't played CF since college. His value at 2B is much higher than it is in CF.

That's really not the way SBs & CSs work relative to OPS. I know Brawndo the Thirst Mutilator had a good post on it in the MLB forums. It's not as simple as adding in & subtracting out, because the outs made with CSs make a much larger impact than the extra bases gained from SBs. EDIT: Here's the link to Brawndo's input on this topic in the 'Hardy to AAA; Escobar up' thread.

I would imagine Lackey would be way too pricey & risky for the Brewers, since as others have noted he's basically the cream of this crop. I wouldn't mind at all taking a long look at Harden.

Glad to hear those reassuring signs, AKA Pete. What if Gamel is playing LF and McGehee playing 3B? I like that thought if Gamel can transition to the OF the way Braun did No, that's what makes me get all irritated. There is just no way Gamel shouldn't be our 3Bman of the future, and it would really tick me off if the reason was to get McGehee playing time ahead of Mat. Mat is going to be a better defender than McGehee, let alone a better hitter. Now, if you start talking McGehee to LF & Gamel to 3B, I would feel better. But I'd guess McGehee's value would be higher in just trading him as a 3B/2B & signing a FA or trading for a guy to play RF or LF.