TooLiveBrew

Not sure what Ennder thinks but teams playing over their heads the whole season (or mostly) isn't unheard of.

Nope. You are apparently wrong. In a surprising move, the Red Sox put Manny Ramirez up for grabs, placing the All-Star outfielder on irrevocable waivers last night, according to the websites of The New York Times and the Boston Herald Thanks for finding that twobrewers. I certainly didn't. So Manny got more crazy. With less money owed to him. And now they were able to get Jason Bay for him. Welcome to Ned Colletti's universe. Though the two compensation picks are apparently more important than getting Bay for the Dodgers.

Found some more info on Manny's antics from Dan Shaughnessy's Boston Globe article: "[in early July], manager Terry Francona sent Manny up to pinch hit against Yankees ace Mariano Rivera. It was Manny's day off, and the slugger appeared totally uninterested, looking at three strikes without removing the bat from his shoulder. During the All-Star break, Manny made remarks critical of Sox ownership regarding his past contract negotiations. Owner John W. Henry responded with an e-mail in which he said he was "personally offended." Nine days ago, prior to the final game of a West Coast trip, Manny told Francona he was unable to play because of a previously unreported knee injury. The tipping point came one week ago tonight when Manny pulled the same stunt before the first game of a three-game set with the Yankees. That was it. The Sox decided they were done with him. They'd been Manny's prisoner too long. It was unanimous upstairs. Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino, Theo Epstein, and Francona were all steamed. One teammate called Manny's bailout "a disgrace." The Sox sent him out for an MRI on both knees, then made sure the media knew he was not injured. They threatened to suspend Manny if he didn't play the next day. Manny played. Then he started yapping. He said he was done with them. He said they didn't deserve him. Theo and the minions went to work. Manny had stripped the Sox of most of their leverage, but they were intent on dealing him anyway. The Sox gave up a ton in this deal. They parted with their cleanup hitter. They gave up two prospects. They're paying Manny's salary. And they forfeited the two high draft picks they'd have gotten if they lost him to free agency. Bay is good, but he's not that good. At the end, Manny didn't care about winning. He didn't care about anything except Manny and the ego-driven wallet measuring that motivates so many of today's superstars. He did the Sox no favors, shooting his way out of town, but he got what he wanted. He gets to play in Los Angeles for Joe Torre. He gets to work toward his next contract - money he'll never possibly have time to spend. Ultimately, this trade is a demonstration of how badly Boston wanted to get rid of Manny. It wasn't about home runs or on-base percentage. But it had to be done out of fairness to the manager and the other 24 Red Sox players who are here to win."

Do you have any articles or links to back that up? Do you have the articles that no team claimed him due to anything aside from hoping they could trade for him or knowing the Sox would just pull him back? I'm not out with ill will here. Just going on market size, there's a decent list of teams that would have happily taken on his salary if all they had to do was claim him. If any team claimed Manny, the Sox would have pulled him back. You don't give a player like that away -- it's just not the way baseball tends to work. You keep the elite player & in this case, watch him lead your team to a couple WS titles. That is, until he's openly dogging it & basically doing everything in his power to force your hand to trade him** (see below). Then, you let him go, essentially along with two prospects, for Jason Bay. That's the best the Sox could do, and more power to them in that sense. The guy comes across as a nutjob, and if he was going to continue openly tanking, they'd have been in trouble. Manny hates the management/ownership in Boston, and did everything he could to get out this time.** I am about 90% sure they were just trying to get out of his contract. I agree -- trouble is, no deals were finalized. As you said, $20M is a chunk. However, I don't agree that Boston was hoping to just give him away for free. The Sox were shopping him for basically the last 3 or 4 seasons & offseasons, but no one wanted to pay the price (prospects) they were asking... at least, that's my recollection of every trade story on Manny. Theo was asking the moon, and rightly so, but no one wanted in until the price came down. This season, that finally happened. But it was more than he was worth a few years back. Just my opinion, but I can't think of many other players worth as much as Manny's premium offensive production year after year. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ ** Here's the guts/some excerpts of what Manny had to say (linked from a newsday.com article) "Ramirez told ESPN Deportes Sunday that he wants to be traded and doesn't care to which team. 'I can even play in Iraq if need be,' he said. ... 'Enough is enough,' he said. 'I'm tired of them. They're tired of me.' ... 'I don't want to talk to them about contracts right now,' he said. 'So what? I know they've got me. But, hey, enough is enough.' " Here's more, from the Boston Herald's Tony Massarotti: " 'The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me,' Ramirez said. 'During my years here I've seen how they have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them. The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. 'Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy,' Ramirez added. 'I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don't have peace here.' "

It's nice to see the reactionary posts down after a 9-0 thumping. But where are the positive posts? ONE post in the Silver Lining thread? Something tells me some of the theories & proclamations that got thrown around look sorta silly when the Brewers actually win again. Florida got beat 5-2 at home by the Rockies, the Mets lost at Houston 7-3, the Cubs lost at Pittsburgh 3-0, St. Louis won 6-3 over the Phillies. The Brewers still have the fewest losses of any team chasing the WC, and are the only NL team aside from the Cubs that has yet to reach 50 losses. Mike Cameron continues to show that Melvin made a smart decision in signing him. Prince Fielder hit his 23rd HR... can we please finally stop hearing 'Prince needs to eat meat!' Soup threw a solid 7 innings The Brewers put the hurt on Chuck James, even though we 'always lose to SP like him' And... yeah, 9-0! Way to go boys! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

I will TLB answer this: I am sure he will be able to address it better than I ever could. TLB will slowly back away until he has a good 20 foot head start, and then take off running, yelling behind him, 'It's just a mystery of the universe!'

Feel better, Sam http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

I suppose this trade could really help the Dodgers, but it seems equally likely that Kemp or Ethier will be sitting on any given day as Jones or Pierre. In fact, I really can't see BOTH Jones and Pierre riding the bench very often at all. Yes, and they have the ultimate, 'Young guys haven't proven anything yet. Give me vets -- they've been through the fires' manager in Joe Torre. As a local partial observer of the Dodgers, this trade epitomizes their franchise. Instead of focusing on the building blocks of their decent minor league system like the Red Sox have done and then add the big salaries on top of it...they go out and get these over the hill guys and pay too much. Absolutely. It's easy to tell you've followed the Dodgers in recent seasons. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif A few years back Boston put Manny on waivers. (A few times) Anyone could have had him for free at that time. No one took him because Manny was a little too crazy. No one took him because the Sox would have just pulled him back, or they were hoping he'd clear so they could trade for him.

Choppers to the right side of the IF = OBP Man, are you stupid or something?!

Admittedly, I have absolutely no problem with fans selling their tickets when they can get as much as they can from selling to Cubs fans. And this is where the disconnect is. Yes, it is the ticketholder's right to do so. However, this is what leads to Cubs fans taking over MP. Until Brewers fans stop selling their tickets to Cubs fans, that will continue. The complaining about how many Cubs fans there are has taken a bit of a credibility hit lately in my eyes, since clearly so many fans that could be at the games choose to sell their spots to Cubs fans. Now, that last bit was not aimed at you, Blancofan1, but I'd not be surprised if there are ticketholders that sell a game or two, go to the other two/three games, and complain, not able to understand, 'Where do all these Cubs fans come from? Why do they take over the ballpark? This sucks!'

It has to be clear in the locker room who is running the team. Who's your guess then? Do you really, honestly think that Yost sticking with Soup too long (something he's done before with SP & will do again) changes any of that? Honestly? Kendall's defense alone imo makes him a better option than Rivera, and Jason has been far more durable than your average C for his entire career. Lou Piniella has got to be the most overrated manager in baseball... but only by Brewers fans.

If the logic used by many/most in selling the regular season tickets were used in the playoffs, I'd guess there'd be a similar amount of Cubs fans

Hey, come on -- they only lost 6 of their last 7! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

You have to understand your roster and use it to the best advantage each game. This is from joepepsi's post (#22) in the Skaalen thread. I just felt it fits so appropriately here. I genuinely appreciate that Yost wants to try everything he can to help the Brewers win. Unfortunately, at this point it's abundantly clear that, not only does he oftentimes not understand what these things are, but he just overthinks & out-thinks himself. I guarantee you there was some wacky 'reason' why Craig Counsell started G.4 yesterday, but not one that makes any logical, objective sense. Ned --- KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID

Looking at Kapler's prior body of work we see career rate stats of 272/331/423. Cameron's career stats now stand at 249/339/446 One more thing I think you should look at -- which player spent the bulk of his career in hitters' parks, and which one played the vast majority of his career in pitchers' parks?

Sadly, the tone for this series was set Sunday as Yost sat idly by waiting for Suppan to get that 3rd out against the Astros. So Suppan sucking against the Astros & Yost leaving him in too long affected all the players on the roster in like a -5 temporaty talent hit in every way? Does this expire now that the Cubs series is over, or does Yost have to come up lucky on the 12-sided die to cease the curse? This the same junk we had to wade through when the Brewers were 4 under. They don't care. They aren't good enough. IT'S ALL Yost's fault. Season over! And on and on. The Brewers got swept but they'll get over it. Time for the fan base to do the same. I wish there was more of this levity here at times. I certainly understand the emotional reactions (I had mine, to be sure), but I just don't understand how some fans can legitimately believe, 'Same old Brewers -- obviously they're headed for a tailspin' No, they didn't play anywhere close to 'well' this homestand, but that's over, and has little to nothing to do with their current opponent, Atlanta. If people legitimately expect Hart, Braun, etc. to continue to play like they've never seen a baseball, I just don't think much can come from the discussion.

Manny's comments indicated that he never felt like he had 'peace of mind' while in Boston, and followed that up by saying 'you can't put a price on that'. He said he loves the Boston fans & his teammates, but the management/ownership was his reason for being disgruntled. Also, you *know* you're a mega-star when a thread title at a Brewers fan forum reads "Manny to the Dodgers", and literally no one panics, thinking it's Parra. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif who leads off for the Dodgers? Maybe they can trade for Corey Patterson! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

I like what the Pirates have done in this deal. They are just stocking up on good talent, would have rather had Kemp if I were them but oh well Agreed, jwill. My thoughts exactly when I saw their haul. 'Cast a wide net' imo is always a good strategy. 2 arms & 2 position players for Bay -- well done.

.348/.404/.752 (98 OPS+) -- not what you might expect from Swisher, but not bad at CF... which is where he should be the rest of the way. So far it's been an underwhelming April, horrid May & July, and a ridiculous June for Swisher. I've gotta imagine he's going to start hitting a bit more in Aug.

Kemp to PIT? Sorry, guess that's slipping into a Transactions Forum mode...

So does Bay head to TB now? I get the feeling there's more news to come today.

I mentioned in a discussion earlier this season that the Brewers' early-season success against the Cubs might loom large down the stretch. Thank god we won those games early on. (accidentally posted that in the vent thread... deleted it there)

So what is the new hitting coach supposed to do? You think Skaalen is telling them to swing at balls? Well he very well could be facilitating this, 'Maybe we need to look at our approach at the plate... Nah' crap. I would be fully on-board with getting Skaalen out, and I felt Wynegar's firing was unwarranted. The upside Skaalen supposedly brought was familiarity with the young players. If he's so familiar, maybe he could actually help our batters think about their plan of attack at the plate & how to best use their swings.

It's gotta be an OF of Dye-Q-Swish, 1B of Thome & DH of Griffey... right? Otherwise I don't see how this makes sense. Also, kudos to Bruce Ciskie, who had the foresight to call this trade back in the summer of '69! "07/31/69 12:17 PM"

Was it just someone trying to scoop the deal that got ahead of themselves? Wasn't Bay to TB the main rumor recently? Sounds like a classic case of getting the personnel or where they're headed mixed up in a trade rumor.