such an arrangement could help the club score 25 to 30 more runs. IThere's the verbiage... "could" is why I see it as an upper limit estimate. [in terms of the quoted statement] It could help that much, but likely will be less. Just so I can clarify where I was coming from. But then we come back to Russ's point of why bat the pitcher 9th when you are going to turn around and bat Cameron 2nd. That makes no sense to me, and ultimately I think any advantage gained by batting the pitcher 8th is washed out by batting your 6th best hitter 2nd. Honestly, I think the less tinkering, managing, talking, or interacting Ned does the better the Brewers will be -- and I am not trying to be cute about this. Whenever Ned delves into stats we have Mench batting against RHP or pitching changes made because of fielding pct. You can only do so much in the face of Yosting. I have no way to understand or explain. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif EDIT: I doubt that the real number is over 5. I think any study that shows 25-30 run to be anywhere near the projected production has fundamental flaws in it. I really don't doubt that it's over 5. With the lineup the Brewers have, moving Kendall's OBP from in front of the pitcher to in front of Rickie should easily produce an extra 5+ runs over the course of a season. I understand that for analyzing, you might have to utilize the '8 avg. hitters' model, but I don't know if the point of what's evidenced by such a study necessitates following the determinations as strictly as is being discussed. Please correct me if I'm way off base with that. In other words, it appears more important to have your strongest OBP guys strung together (for the most part), than to determine precisely which hitter 'goes' where. Is having Cameron at #2 (who carries a strong BB rate, and whose BA/OBP should increase slightly being out of PetCo) enough different from him hitting #3 to worry about it? Honest question. It seems to me (a non-skilled-with-stats guy) that what's most important is stringing together the high OBPs - to create as many opportunities with runners on for your best hitters - hence batting a better OBP in front of Weeks, batting Kendall + Weeks + Cameron ahead of Prince, Braun, & Hart, etc. Once the best hitters have had their shot, the OBP becomes less important (albeit marginally), thus the lineup going to Hall/Hardy at #6 & 7. I readily admit that I don't have nearly the grasp on these lineup permutations that others here do, but I don't know if it's as important to keep Cameron out of the #2 spot as it is to group high OBPs together. EDIT 2: As a follow-up, Cameron would be best utilized in the 6-hole if the pitcher is batted 8th, since he carries the lowest OBP from Weeks/Prince/Braun/Hart/Cameron?