danzig6767

No kidding. There isn't a manager in baseball who would be playing Davis/Schafer over a healthy Braun and Gomez. I wanted to see Weeks benched before he got hurt, but i don't believe that was something just up to Roenicke. Unfortunately Rickie is still in an expensive multi-year deal and thus i'm sure both Melvin/Attanasio wanted to hold out all hope that Weeks would turn things around so as to get some value out of the many millions he's currently getting paid and is owed next year. Kinda like the 2nd half he had last year. Right or wrong, most teams in baseball just hate giving up on players owed a lot of money, especially small market teams. As for Thornburg, i'm pretty much a 100 percent certain that how he's being used based mainly on the health/availability of the veteran starters is being dictated more by the front office than by Roenicke. Once Estrada and Gallardo each came off the DL, they were going to go back into the rotation and in turn impacting Thornburg.

Yep, close to unanimous

I would. I'm far more concerned about how poorly Seid has done since taking over the draft than i am whether Gomez is traded. If we trade Carlos that would fetch us an arm or two, but each year Seid is in charge of drafting about 40 players and so far at least the results have been ugly. The main reason we even have this thread going about maybe trading one of the best centerfielders in the game entering his prime years while on a team friendly contract is because our farm system has cratered since Seid has taken over the drafts. Had there not been as many whiffs, instead of even thinking about trading Gomez, Melvin could just grab arms from our farm system as other teams do that draft better.

I would love to have Zduriencik back, but even if he isn't available, Melvin seriously needs to consider replacing Seid with someone else. While it's true that Seid hasn't had the benefit of picking in the top 5-10, it's hard to look at his drafts so far and have confidence that he should continue running drafts going forward. He's running the farm system into the ground and that's devastating for any small market team.

I've said it before in other threads, if say the Brewers continue to struggle over the next few years to the point that Melvin ends up getting let go, my money is on the biggest factor ends up being Doug's decision to hire Seid after Zduriencik left. A baseball GM just doesn't have the time to go around scouting countless kids each year who are draft eligible. Because of that, whoever a GM hires to run the amateur scouting department is arguably the most important decision a GM can make, especially for small market teams who simply need cheap higher end talent to thrive. Whiling granting that there are currently plenty of really young players in the system from more recent Seid drafts, so far at least it's hard for me to find reason overall to think Seid was a good hire by Melvin. The Brewers market size and payroll limitations just can't allow for an unproductive director of amateur scouting, along with potentially an ineffective development system.

We probably agree more than we disagree on how to handle Gomez, but in the end, regardless if he's traded or not, building the franchise back up with another influx of some high end young talent is going to ride way more on if Seid starts hitting better on his draft picks than if Carlos is traded. The by far biggest reason that the Brewers so badly need more impact arms in the organization overall is that first Jack Z and now Seid have done an atrocious job of drafting/developing quality pitching. This has to change at some point. Look at say the Cardinals Lynn, Miller, Kelly, Garcia, Rosenthal, Siegrist, etc were all drafted by them and they still have better arms in the minors than we do. Tampa's farm system has produced a bevy of quality pitchers. The Pirates actually have three quality starters via free agency in Burnett, Wandy, and Liriano, but some key pen arms came from the farm and more are coming. There are plenty of other high quality young arms around the league who came via the draft. For the Brewers though over a long stretch of time, Melvin has had to acquire pitching mostly elsewhere because both Jack Z and now Seid have been terrible at drafting pitching. Granted though, it was Doug who hired Seid, so he bears a sizable amount of responsibility for how his amateur scouting director performs. Hopefully some of Seid's more recent picks the last say two years can start showing more high end potential because if not, the odds are slim that Melvin or anyone who replaced him could build consistently quality teams without a farm system producing some cheap high end talent given our market size/payroll limitations.

Pretty much the only time you hear a GM openly admit in public that a player is available around the trade deadline is like in the case of Greinke last year where a very good player is in the last year of his deal, likely won't resign, and the team is out of playoff contention. Rarely ever do you hear that though about a really good player with multi-years left on their deal. The reason GM's don't do that is obvious, they don't want to to piss off that player by letting everyone know he's being shopped, but then no trade ends up happening and you're left with an irritated player. I think you and I agree on a lot when it comes to Gomez. He's having a wonderful season and if traded should fetch a very good return. I think where the difference lies is that you are in that mindset where if we keep him we keep him whereas my mindset is if the Brewers are actually serious about obtaining the kind of pitching they need they should willing, if not outright looking, to move him. If Gomez only had one year left on his deal, i'd share your same zeal to trade him. With three years left though, i'm fine with a plan of only trading him for a fabulous offer. Baseball can be a volatile and unpredictable sport from year to year. Did a single person following MLB predict say that the Pirates would be on pace for the best record in baseball while Washington would be 14.5 games back in August? That Baltimore would win 93 games last year? Point being that while pitching is clearly a major need overall for the Brewers organization and that is mainly why the odds look poor that the team can compete for a playoff berth next season, who knows what will be the case in 2015 or 2016. It's certainly possible that in either of those years that the Brewers end up having a quality team and one of the reasons why is Gomez. So that's why i'm fine with multiple scenarios. 1. Trading Carlos this offseason if a team offers a serious haul of pitching. 2. Keeping him for all three years so long as the team wins 90 plus games during at least one of those years. 3. Something in between where he's traded at a later date so long as the return is good. Of the three i'd probably prefer option 1 the most, but not by some huge margin.

Part of any plan for Weeks next year has to be for not allowing him to get enough at bats for his 2015 option to vest unless he hits significantly better.

I must have missed the article or interview where Melvin stated that Gomez was untouchable. I'd love to see a link where he said this. Plus, how many real GM'S out there state in public that one of their better players is up for sale, especially one who recently just signed a multi-year deal? It rarely ever happens for good reason. The job of a GM is different than posting on a message board. Either way, while as i said that i'd be willing to trade Carlos for the right offer, i'm not going to lose any sleep if he isn't moved this offseason. He's turned into a one of the best centerfielders in the game, is entering what are often prime years for a baseball player, and has three years left on his deal at team friendly dollars.

You are a good poster on here logan, so i'm sure you understand that that just because a team isn't technically shopping a player doesn't mean that a player is off limits to being traded. Melvin can't be shopping Gomez right now anyways. While i do see the odds being against him being traded in the offseason, if Carlos were to be traded, that would be the prime time to do so. That would be a time when teams are trying to put together their rosters and thus if a good team really needed a CF and either didn't have one as a prospect or couldn't land one in free agency, they could contact Melvin to see if there was any chance to work out a deal. Not only that, during the offseason Melvin and Attanasio can at some point get a feel of where their roster is shaping up depending on whatever other moves were made. Keep in mind, pretty major trades can often be hard to actually complete for a variety of reasons. 1. You need a team/teams to have a need for a player that you're willing to trade. 2. A team/teams with interest need to have good enough prospects which interest the team trading the quality major league player. 3. Even if an interested team has prospects to entice say the Brewers, they have to agree on giving up what is being demanded. Look at the Greinke trade. The Brewers wanted to trade Greinke and Texas wanted to acquire him, but they simply weren't willing to offer enough to get Melvin to say yes. Thankfully, that was the case and instead Doug got Segura. I would hope he does the same for Gomez if anyone calls, drive a hard bargain, especially given Carlos has three years on his deal vs being say one year from free agency.

FWIW Paul, you may think i'm overstating how much value Gomez should have in any trade, but i'm not alone. Fangraphs recently did an interesting trade value piece ranking their 100 most valuable major league players based on everything from production, age, contract status, etc and they had Gomez at 33. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2013-trade-value-35-31/ Under Team Control Through 2016: $7 million, $8 million, $9 million

Hey, i won't disagree on the Brewers track record of drafting/developing starting pitching. In fact, unless some of Seid's more recent draft picks start showing real potential, one of the biggest mistakes of Melvin's tenure could end up being his hiring Seid to replace Zduriencik. That hire alone could bring down Doug more anything he's done on the pro talent level. For any team in baseball, the guy hired to head the scouting and drafting of amateur talent is vitally important, but it's extra important for small market teams. A poor hire in that job can have devastating consequences and so far at least, there hasn't exactly been a lot to like about what Seid has done overall, while granting many of his picks are still quite young. His drafts have to produce some impact players for the Brewers to have any chance of prospering going forward. As for Gomez, there probably is no point in arguing about him anymore. I'm with you in that he'd certainly be available if i was GM. All i'd say is that i wouldn't trade him though unless an offer was really damn good, including at least one top tier SP prospect without any injury history and another prospect or two included with with a high ceiling, but who might be say still only in A ball. Without any real details though, it's hard to say what is something Doug should move Carlos for because the top pitching prospect in one organization can be vastly different quality than for another team.

Paul, i'm not trying to be a jerk in saying this, but it's stating the extreme obvious that the Brewers clearly need better starting pitching and especially some quality young starters who are cheap. It's also pretty clear that both Zduriencik and now Seid so far have done a pretty miserable job at drafting quality starting pitching. That lack of drafting/developing pitching for so long has forced the team to have to either trade for starters or get it in free agency, unlike other teams who have drafted pitching much better. The only other player who could net us that pitching is Gomez. I said that i'd be willing to trade Carlos if i was GM, but you seem to be hell bent on seeing him be traded even if the offer is mediocre to poor overall value, so long as it's pitching. Regardless of what you think of Melvin, he didn't rise to the level of being a longtime GM and not be able to see quality young pitching is a weakness in the organization. So i'm pretty certain that if in say the offseason a team calls about Gomez offering young pitching, Doug isn't going to just cut the other guy off and immediately hang up. Where there likely could be a big difference though is that he wouldn't be in the same rush to strike a deal as you seem to be, even if the haul doesn't involve true high end arms. Then again if my memory is correct, you hated the extension for Gomez and maybe that's clouding your view of what his value should be as a trade commodity. While they are not yet complete MLB players, Schafer and Gindl can both play CF. Aoki could move to center field as well. Schafer certainly can handle CF defensively, but Aoki would be terrible in center given how deep he has to play because he's so poor going back on balls. Gindl isn't a centerfielder either. Sure, maybe in a spot start situation Aoki or Gindl could play CF, but as an everyday guy, both would be well below average defensively. I just think that people are overestimating the state of the franchise. Who exactly are all of these people that you're talking about who can't see pitching is badly needed? Speaking for myself at least, i fully understand that for the Brewers to be truly competitive for a playoff berth again going forward, the starting pitching has to be significantly better and it's also going to have to include cheap young arms. Clearly obvious. That said, trading Gomez just to trade him if the return was sub-par isn't likely going to accomplish that goal anyways. There is no need to rush into taking almost any pitching offer. Any trade ever made or turned down is 100% about the details of who and for what exactly. So for me anything less than at least one elite pitching prospect along with maybe another piece or two should be what Melvin held out for if Gomez were to be traded this offseason.

Gomez with his much improved hitting, elite defense, and very team friendly contract is a very valuable commodity. I sure would hope that Melvin was really choosy before making any trade vs jumping to trade Carlos just to simply trade him for pitching, even if the offer was mediocre. Gomez has three years left on his very team friendly deal, not only one year. Asset management is important and acting impulsively to make a deal just to make a deal more often than not will backfire on any pro sports GM. So while i'd certainly be willing to trade Carlos if i was the Brewers GM, the asking price would be pretty hefty and by no means would i rush to complete a trade unless i felt the return was in line with Gomez's overall value.

No question that the "just try to get into the playoffs" makes far more sense in MLB than the NBA. The MLB playoffs have come close to being a crap-shoot from year to year, while in the NBA only a select few teams have a real shot to win a title.

Whether this was the case, or (and/or?) clubs simply aren't willing to offer much in return for Lohse, the Brewers are stuck with his contract on a team that doesn't forecast in any reasonable sense to be a serious contender in 2013 or 2014. And the longer Lohse stays with the Brewers the lower his trade value is with each day that passes. I doubt that Attanasio views next year in the same way many Brewers fans do. My guess is he is of the mind frame that with some better health and roster tweaks, the team can be competitive next year, thus he really wasn't interested in trying to trade Lohse at the deadline and likely won't try to trade him in the offseason. The more i watch Attanasio the more i wonder if he has some Herb Kohl like tendencies with the Bucks in that both are very reticent to punt on a season before it even begins. As a result, he'll almost always view things more from the glass is half full perspective about the Brewers chances to be at least competitive vs thinking odds are more bleak to compete for a playoff berth, so lets trade some vets, pretty much punt on next year, and try to be good the following season.

I remember that monty57 almost immediately pointed out that Lohse would probably be hard to trade, because teams weren't willing to give up a 1st rounder & the cash to add him as a FA. And routinely the reaction to that idea was that it was so harsh & negative, & Lohse is a good pitcher, etc. Now, we appear to be committed to Lohse for the rest of his deal, unless we'd let him go for a draft pick or a lower-tier prospect. I actually hope they send him through waivers now, to see if any offers on him are made. Two thoughts 1. I do think there were some factors into why it took Lohse so long to get signed beyond the draft pick aspect. You likely had teams fearing that Lohse could end up being like some other former Cardinals reclamation project starters who had success there and noticeably less success once they left. There is also Boras. I don't remember any rumors of what he was initially asking for contract wise with Lohse, but i highly doubt it was only 3 years and 33 million. Boras had to settle on that once all of the suitors dry up. 2. I certainly won't claim to know if Melvin got any serious offers for Lohse and if so for what exactly in return, but in watching how both Doug and Attanasio seem to view both roster building and almost never giving up on a season before it starts, i don't see the odds being high at all that they let it be known Lohse was available. Instead, my guess if that both Doug and Attanasio preferred to keep him unless another team made a call with such a great offer that it simply couldn't be turned down. The type of offer which wasn't going to be made, especially in today's baseball where teams value low cost prospects more than ever and quality pitching prospects in particular.

While i see the odds being slim that Melvin will want to trade Lohse in the offseason or that Attanasio would allow Doug to trade Lohse for any type of pitching prospect/prospects who aren't major league ready, if both though were open to it, i could see Lohse being in some level of demand. Come the offseason, for some pitching needy teams that either strike out on landing a free agent starter or who balk at handing out a pricey 3-4-5 year deal, i could easily see Lohse being viewed as an attractive fall back option given he showed he wasn't just a Cardinals creation and that he doesn't have a long term contract.

That's what surprised me, pretty much nothing happened throughout the league. Off the top of my head, this was the least active trade deadline in baseball that i can recall, but maybe my memory of previous years is off.

The Reds will owe Votto 25 million per in years 2018-23. He's maybe the second best hitter in the game, but i see the odds being remote of that contract not being an albatross for at least three of those years. I remember being stunned when reading about that deal. The Cardinals are very well run, but lucky also. Take Pujols. They offer him between 180-190 million dollars, but he says no. Less than two years later, Pujols already looks to be in clear decline and there would be no DL for the Cardinals to use Albert at. Man i wish he took the Cards offer. I understand that baseball is swimming in new cable TV revenues, but the way so many teams have been handing out big money 7-10 year deals for position players and 5-6 year big money deals to starting pitchers, my guess is that the majority of these contracts will start looking ugly anywhere from halfway in to the last couple of years. The only time i can see 7-10 year deals not blowing up on the back end or sooner is these contract to guys in their early 20's where teams buy out all of the arbitration years and the first few years of free agency.

If my memory is correct, Beane has traded for a veteran a few times when he had contending teams, but that was also back when you'd get a comp pick for a vet on the last year of their deal who left in free agency.

A few thoughts on your post 1. It's easier said than done to know what guys are clearly going to fall off a cliff or who will continue to perform well. You listed guys like Hall, Weeks, Axford, Hart, etc, welll, unless you always predicted their demise was imminent before it happened, it's a lot easier to do in retrospect. Axford for example was brilliant in notching 45 plus saves in a row and on a dirt cheap contract at the time. Did you predict that he was ready to completely implode the following year? Predict Weeks was ready to fall apart after three straight .800 plus OPS seasons even though he was only 27 when getting his contract? On the flip side expect Gomez to be sitting here with an .894 OPS after you ripped his extension? Point being, this is a volatile sport and players regularly follow really good stretches by continuing to play well while others fall off a cliff as you put it. Hall was another example. He followed a good .837 OPS year with a great .899 season, including a whopping 78 extra base hits for a middle infielder, all at ages 25 and then 26 where many players typically enter their primes. It's easy to say in retrospect that Hall was clearly going to crash and burn soon after, so he should have been traded after that great year vs getting an extension. 2. Attanasio in multiple interviews has been pretty clear in stating that he prefers going for the win now route whenever he feels there is any chance to at least compete for a playoff berth. So do you really think he'd have been keen to the idea of Melvin trading away productive pieces at the time like you mentioned for prospects instead? How receptive do you think Attanasio would have been to Doug or an GM at the time coming up to him after a 96 win season and NLCS berth to trading Axford for prospects after he was a key cog in notching 45 straight saves and being paid peanuts the following year? To trading either of Weeks/Hart after that season? The Brewers aren't the Packers with no single owner where GM's like Ron Wolf and now Ted Thompson have free reign to do whatever they please. Hell, Attanasio took the lead in negotiating the contracts for all three of Suppan, Ramirez, and Lohse. So i think you're being very naive in thinking that if you were GM instead of Melvin, that Attanasio would have just allowed you to go trading away some or all of the players you mentioned for prospects, especially while Braun/Fielder were still together and Miller Park was loading up with around 2.5 to 3 million per year.

"Very useful" sure, "Ace" never in his career. I really liked Gallardo as a pitcher coming through the minors and as a pitcher for the Brewers, but he never took that next step up. His innings per start never increased, in fact the opposite is happening and he never had a big enough arm to be an ace but now his velocity is declining at an alarming rate for his age as well. I don't see the WBC as any kind of logical explanation for his velocity loss. Sustained velocity loss is something mechanical, something physical, or an injury. Yo has always nibbled too much, which pumps up his pitch count and limits his over-all effectiveness. He could certainly attempt to refocus himself as a control pitcher, but he's never had pinpoint control in his career. The best hope I see for him is that maybe he'll get a new off-season conditioning program and come back with greater velocity next season. Yea, while his velocity has dipped a some, i see his lack of command of offspeed pitches being as big or bigger problem. Hanging way to many sliders and curves leading to lots of hard hit balls vs getting a swing and miss. Either that or he'll miss so badly with the offspeed pitches that hitters simply take them, forcing Yo to throw that 90-91mph fastball. Gallardo has never had as good of stuff or command as Sheets, but both relied mainly on a fastball/curve combo when they were pitching well. When Yo struggles to command his curve though, he tends to become very hittable given his slider isn't a plus pitch as his curve can be when it's on. That Padres game looked to be a prime example. I only viewed the Squeeze Play broadcast, but their hitters were regularly hitting hanging sliders and curves really hard, even on outs. His fastball just isn't good enough to survive a lack of command of the secondary pitches.

This is why he should be traded now, because he may actually end up being overpaid and aging over the next 2 years. Gotta sell high if possible. Problem is that suitors are needed, and there's been no indication of that yet. 1. We don't even know yet if Attanasio is for allowing Melvin to shop Lohse. 2. While the many media sources out there like to spread rumors each year as the trade deadline nears claiming that they know X player is being discussed with X number of teams, often those media sources are either just guessing based on what seems like a good fit, being fed misinformation for a variety of reasons, and/or had no clue ahead of time when a player ends up being traded to whatever team. 3. Even if Lohse or Gallardo aren't traded at the deadline, either one could easily end up being traded during the offseason instead. Both will have two years left on their deals at not huge money, so for teams looking to add a starter that want to avoid handing out a big money long term contract in free agency, they could prefer trading for a Lohse or Gallardo.

You should realize that if his defense at third was already really good to go along with his bat for a 21 year old, the odds are very slim that Baltimore would have traded him for a relief pitcher Melvin signed off the street a few months ago and that might pitch 20-25 innings for the Orioles.