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Huh? It was the failure of the guys that throw 50-60 innings that was the difference between being a playoff team and not being a playoff team in 2012. With the salaries they are lopping off in the pen, the total investment in the pen is low enough that they can easily add at least 2 moderately priced quality relievers. Nobody's suggesting they go and give somebody $9-10 million per year. Certainly the higher price doesn't guarantee anything as with K-Rod, but it betters the odds. Its just my preference on how to build a roster. I believe in using the majority of the teams money to build a rotation and everyday lineup and using cheap pre arb guys to fill out most of the bullpen. Relievers are so up and down from year to year that its foolish to commit major money to the pen and last years top 4 relievers in FA is just a reminder how much of a crap shoot it really is. Out of Papelbon, K-Rod, Bell and Madson only Papelbon panned out and the Brewers history signing relievers isn't much better (Riske, Gagne, Hoffman, K-Rod, Hawkins, Saito). You could argue that Hoffman, Hawkins and Saito were decent signings but Hawkins and Hoffman were only good for 1 of the 2 years here and Saito spent the majority of his 1 year in Milwaukee on the DL. To go a little bit further in depth I've seen early payroll estimations for the Brewers at around 65 million which leaves us with around 20-25 million to spend this winter. Instead of spending another 8-10 mill on a couple relievers to go with the 5M Axford is expected to receive in arbitration I would prefer to go in house with Thornburg and Rogers and then try to sign Zack Greinke with Anibal Sanchez being my plan B. I'm also intrigued by the possibility of Josh Hamilton if we strike out on Greinke and Sanchez so signing a couple relievers would kill any of those plans dead in the tracks.

I would bet that he'd be better than Fiers in 2012. Just look at the way the two of those pitchers finished up the 2012 season. Once Fiers was figured out the only team he could get past 6 innings was the Astros, Cubs and Pirates... Meanwhile Ervin got his gopher ball problem figured out and was lights out down the stretch minus his last outing. I know Im in the minority with my opinion of Fiers but I firmly believe if he would've pitched the entire 2012 season he would've finished with an ERA north of 5 as well.

The Angels are shopping Dan Haren and Ervin Santana before the decision on their options are due. You could probably get Haren for dirt cheap since everyone knows the Angels intentions of using that money towards signing Greinke. If you think Haren can rebound from his back issues then this might be something worth looking into. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/20740083/angels-exploring-trades-for-haren--greinke-before-option-decision-is-due

Great job Ram. Your hard work is appreciated.

I disagree about having to trade Rickie Weeks if we signed Hamilton. We have a bunch of pre arb guys who will be making the roster next year that will allow us to keep Weeks and even Hart if we choose to do so. From just a quick check I see 13 guys on our potential opening day roster making the major league minimum and 2 others making peanuts for their production (Aoki/Estrada). Thats 60 percent of our opening day roster making under 12 mill.

Hamilton to St. Louis is a disaster. I know they're stadium is named after Beer! How could a guy suffering alcohol addiction go to a city like that? Its a disaster waiting to happen!

This site needs a Thanks or a Like button. Sorry for derailing the thread... Back to your regularly scheduled programming

1. I agree with you completely about Rogers and Peralta but you failed to mention Mike Fiers as the main guy I was calling out as a fluke. It seems like the vast majority of posters want to believe his hot start is indicative of his true pitching prowess instead of his ugly finish and very modest AAA numbers. I view Fiers, Estrada and Narveson as #5/long relievers and the thought of going into the season with a rotation including two of them makes me nauseous. 2. How isn't Anibal Sanchez (The guy I truely covet this offseason) not a REALISTIC target when we've offered Greinke over $100M and are being linked to top FA's like Josh Hamilton? 3. Hiram Burgos isn't anywhere near a top prospect. I'm glad he had a great year but his stuff isn't respected by any of the prospect gurus and the Brewers website even left him off their top 20 prospect list. 4. I'm glad you can admit that which goes to prove my point. I know there's plenty of other posters just from reading the Aramis Ramirez thread that would've welcomed a complete rebuild as well

I agree that the majority of time you acquire a top of the rotation pitcher for 2 or 3 years its gonna come in a trade. However many posters who have advocated acquiring that type of pitcher refuse to do another trade and would only sign that type of FA if it was for outrageously below market value. There seems to be a disconnect with reality in how they would acquire those types of arms and instead of doing what it takes to attain them they would rather do nothing and waste a year of Braun's prime.

Is there a group that specifically wants an "all in house rotation?" I don't want us to sign a multi-year deal for a pitcher that we'll regret in a couple of years, and that same logic would apply to signing Hamilton to a long-term / $20+MM-a-year deal. Just like I'd be fine with signing a top-of-the-rotation starter to a 2-3 year deal, I'd be fine with signing Hamilton to a shorter-term deal. Just like I wouldn't sign a big, multi-year deal to a CF who is no better than Gomez/Schafer, I do not want to sign a big, multi-year deal to a SP who is no better than the "in-house" guys we already have. Getting a significant upgrade at a position is great, and that's the only reason you'd sign a player to a position where you already have "MLB caliber" players. We have CF covered, but Hamilton is a big enough upgrade where you'd consider signing him for the right price. We have SP covered, but if we can get a significant upgrade at the right price we should look at upgrading. In neither case should we sign a veteran just because we have some money to spend and it'll look to the fans like the front office is trying. Not that that's what you're advocating, but some seem to think we need to get a veteran pitcher "just because." From my perspective there are a large number of posters on this site who would prefer Melvin to do nothing this winter so a couple of pitchers with a mid 4 ERA in AAA along with a journeyman who was dumped by the Nationals can be given every rotation spot behind Gallardo. There seems to be a large number of Brewer fans who were upset by our late season surge because it prevented an all our rebuild like they desperately wanted.

This is hilarious. Soriano, Washington, 2006: .277, .351, .560.... .911 Hamilton 2012: .285, .354, .577.... .930. One was 30 years old, the other 31. One averaged 155 games over the previous 6 years, the other, 111. I want no part of Hamilton. Soriano signed an 8 year deal and Hamilton isn't expected to get anything more than 5 years.

At least the group of fans who want an all in house rotation should be pleased with these rumors.

I like both of the lefties from Washington. Mike Gonzalez is pretty much only a loogy at this point but Burnett isn't a total liability against right handed hitters. I just hate the thought of giving 4M a year to a reliever who pitches 50 or 60 innings.

I'm pretty sure I read that Edwin Jackson left Scott Boras. The only problem with Jackson is that he's likely to cost a draft pick.

I think people are undervaluing pitching, and over-valuing one year of Corey Hart. It's possible but I think Corey Hart is good enough to warrant a qualifying offer so it wouldn't be just 1 year of Corey Hart from the other teams perspective. To be honest I got the idea from this article - http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/10/10/braves-have-big-holes-but-the-means-to-fill-them/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_braves_blog Is Corey Hart & a comp pick (or 2 years of Hart) worth that much less than 2 years of an aging Josh Willingham? I don't think its that much of a difference where you couldn't add other pieces to balance out the trade.

What was the Brewer record after Greinke left? 38-25 right? A healthy Narveson or any one of the young guys would win 15 games with a lineup (that's already pretty stout) that included Hamilton. That's maybe 2-4 less than Greinke would but it would help all the other pitchers add a couple wins too. The thing is signing Hamilton would trigger other moves. Dealing Hart being the most logical. Count me in the group that says if he falls into their laps at a reasonable cost ($90-100 million over 5), I say go for it. Otherwise not. I agree. I think you could get a quality starter (Delgado or maybe Teheran) from the Braves for Corey Hart. Then you could trade Gomez for a couple relievers (atleast one being LH) to shore up our bullpen. Replacing Hart and Gomez with Gamel and Hamilton not only improves our offensive production but it also balances out a RH heavy lineup from a year ago. The rotation would be unproven but holds a ton of upside with a nice mixture of veterans (Gallardo), power arms (Peralta, Rogers, Thornburg, Delgado) and control guys (Fiers and Estrada). If you're still worried about the pitching staff then maybe you could add someone like Ervin Santana or Roy Oswalt on a 1 year incentive deal.

If I'm DM I'm shopping and considering non tendering Axford. No way is he worth 5M.

And where would he play with the Dodgers already paying a billion to Kemp/Ethier/Crawford? The Dodgers are gonna be major players for Greinke.

Sign me up for Koji Uehara as the replacement for K-Rod.

So I assume everyone in favor of putting Gallardo on the open market wouldn't mind shopping Braun as well?

I thought we traded Marino Salas and some other low level prospect for Torres.

Have you even looked at the FA market or are you just assuming were gonna sign Braden Looper again? Theres plenty of arms that could give us 200 innings of sub 4 ERA ball. Guys like Greinke, Peavy, Jackson, Sanchez, Kuroda, Haren and Marcum. Well not so much the 200 innings from Marcum but he'd give you the sub 4 ERA. And anyone suggesting we blow our money on relievers can answer how well that has worked out for us in the past. I'd much rather use that cash on someone like Anibal Sanchez and move someone like Thornburg in the 8th instead of wasting him all year in AAA.

I fail to see how signing a #5 starter / long reliever would improve our team when we already have a ton of them on our roster. I honestly think thats the worst thing the Brewers could do this offseason with the type of offense we have returning. If I'm Ryan Braun and that's all that Melvin brought in I would demand a trade. I'd be thinking why play your heart out for a team that won't support you the same way.

What guys would you target on a short term deal? I look at the FA market and the majority of guys who would be willing to sign a contract like that wouldn't even improve our rotation. I think Brewer fans are overrating their young pitchers and I pray to god Melvin doesn't do the same thing. It could be a LONG 2013 if we stand pat or settle for a back of the rotation starter/reliever like so many seem to want. I look at the 4 guys we want to pitch behind Gallardo and I don't believe any of them would finish with an ERA under 4 for an entire season. Everyone seems to forget that Rogers, Fiers and Peralta all had mid 4 ERA's in AAA Nashville but now there all top of the rotation guys in the pros. Then there's Estrada who pitched way OVER his head this year and if you think he's gonna maintain a 4.93 K/BB ratio going forward I got a bridge to sell you. I guess I'm not blinded by a couple weeks of good baseball. I've learned my lessons with all the flash in pans we've had in the past.

Everyone is saying that Aoki needs a platoon partner so how about Khris Davis? He's turning 25 in a couple months so its not like he's too young to play in the bigs and he's produced quite well against LHP in the minors. I know everyone is concerned about his rag arm that limits him to LF but we heard the same thing all offseason about Aoki and he worked out just fine in RF.