bill hAll Star

Well, he's under control for next year. Obviously we've got tons of depth next year but we could flip him again. That or flip other pieces and/or collect the comp pick. Also, Woodruff and Burnes are key parts of the bullpen. Peralta has an innings limit most likely. We'd basically be running our guys real close to innings limit and hampering our bullpen (and therefore would need to maybe make a deal for help there).

Oh man ... Domingo for Happ would be such a blah trade. Suter gets hurt, so we replace him with a Suter clone? I don't think I'd do that trade, but I would not call Happ a "Suter clone."

I'm a fan of Gibson. He seems to have figured something out middle of last year. The Twins may unfortunately raise the price due to that, but he's a good pitcher if we don't have to empty our farm for him.

I'm interested in some of those players but wouldn't give that much up. AJ Ellis doesn't do much for me compared to what we already have.

Yeah he seems like a guy that was always dancing on the edge of the cliff with non-overpowering stuff...and now it appears that he's fully gone over that cliff.

I know that I probably am like a broken record with either Colorado Springs reminders or starting pitcher discussions, but unless we're willing to pay up for deGrom, our "playoff stopper" will be using our bullpen heavily. I don't know if there are really many pitchers that I'd have as a clear upgrade over a Guerra or Chacin on the market that aren't named deGrom, Thor, or the like.

That didn't stop the Mets, Rays or Orioles from making moves. I think moves can and should happen well before the deadline to maximize our return on the field and hopefully in the W/L column. So far, the other end of the trades have been mostly large markets other than the A's. Those teams were all able to beat out the Brewers or other mid/small markets because they can be more loose with their prospects and pay for replacements later. If this was a later stage of the Brewers' supposed window, they would probably be willing to pay a higher price and obtain a player earlier on.

Duffy has been trending in the right direction his last few starts so he may have a bit more value, but I think it definitely is just "we haven't gotten good offers for him. We'll absolutely trade him but we're going to say we won't because we're not getting offered enough."

Nottingham for sure will get his chance (or be dealt) before next year. I think we know what he'll be early on. Lower batting average/decent OBP/high K/power-hitting catcher that can play good defense. Similar to most starting catchers like your Yan Gomes, Mike Zunino, Chris Iannetta varieties of player. You just don't want a guy that is very similar to Manny Pina playing the backup role in the majors when you already have Manny Pina. Give him his minors at bats. Woodruff I think also will, but that will also be sorted out before next season. There may be a bit of thinning of the starting options even though I think everyone loves the depth.

I get that Yankee Stadium is tough, but Archer should be at an advantage at the Trop. In both cases I'd offer a lowball package (less than you have for both) and almost nothing for Gray. If they want to give them to me, I'll take them. Otherwise I'll just keep throwing less name-brand, yet equally successful pitchers like Junior Guerra and Jhoulys Chacin out there.

I don't understand the hype around Drury. The Yankees acquired him for nothing in a large trade and he's decent. Positional flexibility and an OK RH hitter and still somewhat young. I kept seeing the baseball writers talking about him as if he'd be a major piece in a trade for Britton or other player. He came up young so maybe I'm just missing that he'll grow into more power or something? I rarely do the "big market media bias" thing, but I have to wonder if the Yankees are just pumping some Drury hype into the media to boost his value because I really don't get it.

I do agree that Santana likely is a good OBP guy when he’s back and when he’s right.

I’ve planted my Saladino flag on several threads and will here if I haven’t already. He’s not Francisco Lindor and I may be jumping at a small sample, but he’s supposedly made some adjustments and is hitting the ball hard more often and in the air slightly more often. If he can keep that up (10% soft hit %, way below career average), he will be able to keep up this solid hitting line.

Arcia yes, Santana no, at least not yet. Not until he shows more power and consistency at the plate. He doesn't have the "good defender" cushion to fall back on. I'd argue that Santana's .429 OBP in AAA is not only fairly consistent but also sorely needed on the major league team. He’s just behind Choi on the Colorado Springs leaderboard who has a .296 majors OBP this year. Barely in front of Orf, Bandy, Arcia, Nottingham in OBP all well south of .300 OBP save for Nottingham (.583 OPS) in the majors... Noticing a trend here?

He might just be a placeholder. They just need someone to swing the bat and catch some balls in the outfield during their 70 day exhibition season they're in. He's probably a little bit inferior to Broxton but not a sizeable gap. I'd imagine Broxton is a better CF defender, but I don't know enough about Field in the field (pun intended). Field immediately accepted an assignment to AAA. Probably more of a depth move. A contending team doesn't want someone like Field playing a meaningful role. Adam Jones is more logical than the other 2. He's still a very solid hitter despite the defense not being what it was. He gets great marks for his clubhouse presence as well. Hard to imagine him becoming much of a clubhouse leader in 70 games with the guys currently there, but he certainly would be a positive to some degree. Field is probably a depth move similar to us snagging Liriano. I've felt like that move was a precursor to one or more of Broxton/Phillips/Santana getting traded since it happened. When we get healthy and some of those guys go down to AAA, there won't really be space for Liriano. Yeah, they still may get Jones and with the injuries they do just need depth (Field). That said, my point remains that they have a strange rental situation where the next 2 months are 99% meaningless unless the selling Twins accidentally play .650 or better baseball. They could still use a playoff upgrade, but a rental means even less to them.

He might just be a placeholder. They just need someone to swing the bat and catch some balls in the outfield during their 70 day exhibition season they're in and they can see if his RH platoon bat is enough. He's probably a little bit inferior to Broxton but not a sizeable gap. I'd imagine Broxton is a better CF defender, but I don't know enough about Field in the field (pun intended).

As in you think Broxton/Santana would be superior players? Cleveland is in a weird spot. They got aggressive with several years of control on Hand/Cimber, but they can probably wait out the outfield trades and probably go pretty cheap there. Their 2018 season opens about 70 days from now. I think if the Brewers and Indians were going to get together on an OF trade, it would have happened in the offseason or in spring training. The Indians are a good match for Broxton and a great match for Santana. But they decided to go with junk OFers instead, and it has bitten them. However, in that time, Santana and Broxton have turned in junk performances as well, so who knows? In any case, I bet they get Adam Jones for next to nothing. Hmmmm, maybe Broxton turned in a junk performance because he's short-end of the platoon hitter that isn't that good either? Adam Jones may be washed up but this is exactly why Broxton never had much value as opposed to popular opinion on this board. He's not good enough to value his extra control years because somebody can turn and get Adam Jones for free for a season and then figure out the solution the next year. His defense is superior to someone like Jones at this point in his career, but the Brewers will probably never get the return they'd be asking for for 4 years of control of a player of Broxton's ilk.

As in you think Broxton/Santana would be superior players? Cleveland is in a weird spot. They got aggressive with several years of control on Hand/Cimber, but they can probably wait out the outfield trades and probably go pretty cheap there. Their 2018 season opens about 70 days from now.

He's also crushing RHP (.988 OPS). Though I think he's always hit RHP better.... or struggled with LHP, however you want to look at it. Regardless, he's hitting so bring him up, that glove is a difference maker. Unfortunately it is impossible to know with CS and the PCL if it would truly translate. I just spent several weeks debating how much 2 years worth of inflated Nate Orf stats meant to pro numbers, and while his sample is extremely small in the majors, it would appear that one does not carry over that .400+ BABIP from CS/PCL to the majors very easily. The walks are encouraging, I will say that.

I agree that it's likely just a small sample thing, but the altitude does affect the break on pitches. Could have something to do with it.

Yes, he handled it perfectly fine. Next question. I tend to agree, though it's hard to definitively know how he handled it without knowing what kind of deals were on the table for Santana. For all we know, the demand simply wasn't there. I added more to it apparently right after you replied. Yes, if someone offered a stud prospect or great veteran at a position of need, then Stearns botched it. I really believe that he just turned down a few lower offers, though. I doubt he valued Santana too much and would've turned down some stud pitcher or something.

Look we can go on and on. But what we do know is this. Domingo Santana was not needed given the other offseason moves. David Stearns tried to trade him in the offseason but didn’t. Domingo Santana has had a terrible year, his trade value has tanked and now we need him even less. If you think Stearns handled this situation perfectly fine that is certainly your right. Personally I think he could have handled it better. I think he gambled that Santana would have another good year and his trade value would increase and I think he lost that gamble big time. Yes, he handled it perfectly fine (unless it leaks that we were offered a starting pitcher or 2B) given what we know about what might've been offered. Next question.

Given the year he had I find it highly unlikely nobody offered anything. It’s think it’s far more likely teams did offer something but it wasn’t what Stearns wanted. And yes, you could argue that if the return wasn’t what he wanted it made sense to hold onto him. But there is risk in that is there not? We risk him having a bad year or getting hurt and all of a sudden whatever value he had is gone, which is exactly what happened. Stearns gambled by hanging onto him and so far it looks like he lost. I’m not sure why we can’t call that a mistake. Is it possible that four years from now that it will turn out ok? Sure. But perhaps we can revisit that argument in four years because all we have to go on is what has happened so far. We're using hindsight logic on Santana which I highly disagree with (and I agree we probably didn't get great offers), could we also use hindsight on the rumored trade targets? Chris Archer: Santana was supposed to be just part of an Archer package. Imagine we gave up more...so far this year, Archer has been about as valuable as our ho-hum starters that didn't cost an arm and a leg to acquire. Danny Salazar: Injury, basically hasn't played. Kipnis: Part of the Salazar speculation. Decent defense, nothing on offense. So of the names rumored that Santana was supposed to be part of deals for, none of the guys coming back would've been making much of an impact either. If one suggests that it was fine to deal Santana for a lowball offer...is having Santana under control with a chance to recover next year more valuable than some middling AA prospect? I personally think so.

I agree that he's a bit unlucky, but his BABIP is going to continue to remain on the higher end because he continues to go up and up in failing to limit hard contact and medium contact.

Ok, I'll try. I think both have shown periods of being dominant (Williams more than Barnes), the issue is there are days they don't have it and unfortunately, we have a manager who doesn't react to signs that a pitcher is losing it/doesn't have it that day. I'm not sure all RP respond to sitting for a half inning then coming back out to pitch. When you have 4-5 batters knocking them around, maybe you're 2 batters late for taking action. Williams put 6 batters on on July 20th in 1 IP and lucked out of it with only giving up 2 runs. On the 22nd (2 games later) he cruises through 1 IP and then he comes out for a 2nd inning and that huge dinosaur sized crap hits the fan... he's now been hit hard in 2 games since the break and 1 of them could have been avoided or minimized with a little thought from the manager. I don't think there's anything wrong with either Barnes or William, they just need better "management". To me, this is the ideal management most times. If someone like Williams comes in in a 4-2 game and put 2 guys on base - yes, take him out. People are wringing their hands over Barnes', Jennings', Williams', etc's ERAs...because if they come in in a game that we already trail 7-2 or in a tie game that they do happen to quickly give up a 2 run HR (doesn't happen often)...leave them in! Save the good (or any) bullpen for later. Whatever calculation Counsell/Stearns have I think tells them not to bother with a game that you're losing 5-2. Yes, we won a bunch early in the year and still can, but you don't play your best cards on the table when you're way behind. Hope for a miracle but pack it up and save your best for a game that you are leading or tied. The July 20 game you mention, we were tied in the 7th and he blew it...fine. I don't see us coming back on Kenley and the other good Dodgers' bullpen. Leave Williams in and pray he can get out of it. If not, you've saved your bullpen for a more important game. After Williams gave up a run in the 7th, we had a 12% chance of winning The July 22nd game was even more ideal. We're down 6-2 and Williams is one of our garbage bottom of the pen guys we have at the time. Pray he gets through 2-3 innings to save your bullpen and you somehow make a comeback. If he gets blown up, your chances of winning were 13% (according to bbref) when he entered the game anyways. If Counsell is bringing in Williams with a lead and leaving him in too long - then we have a problem.