HiAndTight

How would you correct people who believe that this was the Bucks first step and they'll be back? I'm not sure why this is so far fetched. Again, every great player has to overcome something. Giannis wasn't able to this year at 24, so that means it was a one year window? And growth from a team can come from it's younger players getting better among other things. DJ Wilson is a 6'10, athletic and active big man who shots about 36 pct from 3. Not sure he's hit his ceiling. I know Giannis hasn't because as great as he is, he struggled in his first time in a big spot in the playoffs. Bringing back Mirotic would almost certainly be growth right there as he played very few games for the Bucks this year and given his track record, would almost certainly be significantly better next season. There will be turnover. As long as we bring back Middleton, Brogdon and can find a competent, veteran PG, I don't see any reason why we won't be back and competitive. I just don't understand the defeatist attitude when we've got a 24-year-old who will most likely be MVP this year and still has a lot of room for growth in his game and we were up 2-0 in the ECF's. I'll start getting upset if Giannis leaves. Past that, I'm pretty confident if he sticks around here, the Bucks are going to be a contender every year he's healthy. I don't know what more you can ask for. Because, as I said, bringing everyone back is not realistic. Let's say they lose Lopez. That's a bigger hit than most people realize. He really anchors the defense, and a true stretch 5 on offense. If they leave who replaces him with no cap room? Wilson is a nice player, but he's not a 5. Yea, GS and Toronto are losing their best players but GS isn't going anywhere. And there are always other teams that step up sooner than expected. Like the Bucks and Nuggets this year. Especially if the Lakers, Knicks, whoever make the right decisions and put a great team together. Indians is lurking depending on what moves they make. I'm not saying the Bucks window IS closed, but it COULD be closed. Yea, they'll still be competitive. And I'll enjoy watching. But I think this this season may turn out to be their best chance to win it all when we look back 10 years from now. Hope I'm wrong. Next year Giannis supporting cast is probably Middleton, Bledsoe (counting on him in the playoffs?), maybe Brogdon, and then a bunch of questions. This is not a young team on the rise is my point. Everyone is already at their ceilings for the most part. I disagree that everyone's already reached their ceilings. That'd be like saying LeBron reached his ceiling when he was 24 and SA was able to stop him using a similar defensive scheme as the ones used against Giannis this year because he struggled to shoot. The guy has gotten better every year in the league and I think there's a whole other level he could still get to. There are several guys who are pretty much at their ceiling, but some of them just flat out didn't play well in the post-season. Bledsoe didn't. But Kyle Lowry struggled for years in the biggest series in the post-season. I think we have a few young guys who could also step up and improve and losing Lopez would hurt, but he also hurt us in the playoffs as much or more than he helped us. The only way I believe we look back years from now and say this was our best chance is if Giannis doesn't re-sign I would hope. As long as we have him, an elite coach, I feel pretty good. That's not to say it's ok they lost a series they were up 2-0 in, but I do think this team had to go through some adversity and get some experience. I cannot think of a single superstar who led his team to a title in his first try without having another legit Superstar on his team. As CHL said, this is going to be a really interesting off-season. We'll see how invested the owners are in building a championship team. If they lose Middleton over a few million a season or Brogdon, then you'll end up being right. I am however confident that won't happen. I think they'll pay Middleton what it takes. It'll hurt a bit because it'll most likely be overpaying, but unlike the other leagues, sometimes you just have to do that in the NBA and you particularly have to do that when you have a guy who is a generational talent like Giannis and he's deciding if he's going to stay with you or if he's going to move on.

Sounds like the Hornets are hanging onto him because they know somebody wants him. And it makes sense. No reason not to. They have bigs, but nothing special and there are reports the Bucks are interested in Kaminsky. Marvin Williams would be a guy from Charlotte that would be a nice guy to add as well. Though he has a PO for 15 million this year, so that's unlikely to happen, baring a buyout.

Absolutely. That's going to help quite a bit. I just think Giannis' weaknesses got exposed and he was outplayed by a pretty decent margin by Kawhi and he's going to come back a much better shooter and an even more all-around player. I did see that Kawhi is apparently buying a property in Toronto, but no clue if there's any truth to that. Even if there is, I still like the Bucks chances going forward. I floated a bunch of names of FA PG's who could sign a MLE in the past, but the guy I'm kinda stuck on is Patrick Beverly. I think he's a game changer, more than his numbers indicate. And we could even start him and bring Bled off the bench. Not diminish his minutes, just have him play more as the primary ball handlers and the guy who attacks coming off the bench. Might put a little less pressure on him. I guess they'd have to agree to deals with Middleton, Brogdon and decide what to do with Mirotic and Lopez first in this scenario-but have them put off actually signing until they use their full MLE as I really doubt Beverly would play for the tax payers MLE. Anyway, it'll be fun to see how it plays out.

That could have worked. Kaminsky has pretty nice footwork around the basket as well. He's obviously not as good as Mirotic, but you're right, he might have thrived in this offense. He'd be a nice guy to target, I just can't think how we could make it work. One of those rare times a UW guy actually makes sense for a pro team. The off-season is going to be really interesting. The Bucks are limited, but there are still a ton of different options for them. They could pick up Hill's option and trade him for a guy who's overpaid, but who could help us(essentially what Middleton will be if we sign him most likely). Who they sign or don't, options they have on players. Are the Bucks a better or worse team if they sign...lets say Patrick Beverly to an MLE for ~9.25 and then find a way to acquire Kaminsky but have to let Hill and Mirotic go? Beverly is worse passing the ball, but a ~40 pct 3 point shooter and probably near Marcus Smart-type of a defensive player. Kaminsky doesn't have to do a ton, just spread the floor.

How would you correct people who believe that this was the Bucks first step and they'll be back? I'm not sure why this is so far fetched. Again, every great player has to overcome something. Giannis wasn't able to this year at 24, so that means it was a one year window? And growth from a team can come from it's younger players getting better among other things. DJ Wilson is a 6'10, athletic and active big man who shots about 36 pct from 3. Not sure he's hit his ceiling. I know Giannis hasn't because as great as he is, he struggled in his first time in a big spot in the playoffs. Bringing back Mirotic would almost certainly be growth right there as he played very few games for the Bucks this year and given his track record, would almost certainly be significantly better next season. There will be turnover. As long as we bring back Middleton, Brogdon and can find a competent, veteran PG, I don't see any reason why we won't be back and competitive. I just don't understand the defeatist attitude when we've got a 24-year-old who will most likely be MVP this year and still has a lot of room for growth in his game and we were up 2-0 in the ECF's. I'll start getting upset if Giannis leaves. Past that, I'm pretty confident if he sticks around here, the Bucks are going to be a contender every year he's healthy. I don't know what more you can ask for.

Right, but we can send Hiura down for 2 weeks and then recall him. If we dumped Thames, that it. We waste money and just dump a guy with a .383 OBP and an 850 OPS...and he's a lefty.

I don't agree with the first two statements. I don't believe he loses anything from being sent down and I certainly don't think he has to "start all over" when he comes back up. I also don't think he's totally figured out MLB pitching yet. He is not great at identifying breaking balls, especially sliders just yet. But let him go down to AAA and if he's figured it out as much as you believe, he should dominate down there while striking out far less than he did up here and he'll be fine when they recall him.

They won the first two games and they dropped four in a row. They were a huge disappointment. Only thing that could have made it even worse is if Toronto went on to lose 4-0 to the Warriors. Right. Which is why Toronto winning it all will help me feel a little better. Then at least you know you lost to the best team. That's right logically, but I just can't get behind rooting for Toronto. They're the team that beat us and the prospect of watching Drake dance on the court would just be too much for me. Plus, I like Curry and the Dubs.

I wanted to trade him because of his injury history and because of the Bucks' free agency situation this summer. I did say that I thought his bulk (muscle and a little body fat) contributed to his injuries, and luckily for all Bucks fans I think he probably understands that better than you do, hence his comments about shedding some weight. But I did NOT say him being out of shape was the reason they should trade him. In fact, I actually never even said or implied Brogdon was out of shape. Khris is the one who I said shows lots of signs of being out of shape; Brogdon just needs to get a little quicker and reduce some wear and tear on his lower body. You don't think it's a little uncanny that Brogdon had yet another pretty serious lower body injury just a few weeks after I said that? And that many Bucks fans who understand the CBA are now talking about how we realistically hope to only lose two recent borderline all-stars for nothing when we probably could have traded Brogdon for a good draft pick and retained everyone else? The argument about trading Brogdon is far from over my friend. This free agency situation is the future I was warning about, and if you think I'm annoying now, wait until his next injury. Certainly sounds like you're talking about him being out of shape here. I also saw a lot about body fat nonsense when reading that. Very few people actually understand real body fat pct's. But I didn't realize how long this silly discussion had been going or how many people had grown tired of it and just quit already. I'm gonna do the same here.

That game was the Raptors for the taking. You're down Klay, KD, a hobble AI and you can't get the job done? Shaun Livingston beats Kawhi to the ball on a slightly errant pass(though one Kawhi certainly should have had). Not to mention the nearly 4 minute scoring drought near the end of the game. I did actually think VanVleet played outstanding last night. He got away with a few fouls on Curry, but he played him tough.

Right. But then we have to limit expectations a bit in both sports and be content in the 2-3rd tier of teams like we are now, with the occasional 'stars aligning' year in either sport that could make a serious run at a title (the two FF teams, and 2017/2011 football). And can't stop our feet and complain about the coaches not recruiting better when they essentially have one hand tied behind their backs due to academics and not paying players (at least not nearly the level of the top programs), plus of course cold weather. I guess that depends on how many tiers you think they are. The Football program is a contender year in and year out and just pulled in one of it's best recruiting classes in years and the best PP QB in the class. If your "1st tier" is Clemson and Alabama, then I'm fine with where we are now. The BB program, however, went to 3 FF's since 2000, they were in the Championship game and had the SIXTH longest run of consecutive NCAA tournament invitations of all time just snapped in 2017. So...whatever tier that is, that's the tier I'd hope they'd strive for. That's a tier that gives them a chance every year. And we did all that before UW actually did give the Athletic Department a little more rope with regards to admissions.

That is a very accurate summation of 99.9% of the arguments in this thread. That's true, but usually, at least they're fun and productive. I don't even remember the disagreement we had about Horst. I remember saying that I had confidence in the Bucks future with Giannis and with Horst, but not where the genesis of this anti-Horst theme started. The other argument...I'll just say this. I respect CHL. I think he clearly knows sports well. I just don't agree with some views he holds.

That, and just the non-stop endless "I told you so" posts. Some of them so ridiculous we end up hearing someone bragging about being right about Michael Redd. And what about the endless "I told you not so" posts in reply? Takes two to tango bro. If a comment from the player himself supporting my assertion is not evidence for you, it's hopeless to have a conversation with you. There was no comment from the player supporting your assertion. You're taking things and twisting them to an absurd degree to fit your narrative. Khris Middleton saying he didn't train before he signed his last FA contract FIVE YEARS ago doesn't mean he came back into camp fat. It means he didn't train. Malcom Brogdon saying he's going to take some time off and then "get back in the gym" and "work on everything," does not support your assertion that and I won't use quotes here because I'm not going to go back and look up the comment, but it does not support you assertion that he's getting so out of shape it's becoming almost an emergency to trade him, comments you made at the trade deadline. As far as it takes two to tango, you're right. It does take someone replying to you...for the most part. Though you actually found a way to "tango" by yourself by arguing with nobody about Michael Redd and Khris Middleton from 5 years ago. And yeah, sometimes it is hopeless. It's hopeless to keep arguing about things that people don't agree about.

Ahh...instantly regret hitting the "display this post," link. The first time I've done so. Man, you really need to move on. Some un-named source said at some un-named point in time that Hors should get paid 3 million dollars. So what? You think that "anyone" could have made the Mirotic trade, and what did you say about the Henson+Delladova for Hill trade? I believe you argued that wasn't a good one either. Great. This isn't the topic at hand and I'm not quite sure why you're following me around on here now to argue that Horst isn't a good GM. What's more, how much time and energy are working into finding something that's NOT positive about Horst over a disagreement we had on him from weeks ago? I think he did a great job this year. I think he did an awesome job building the team, I think he made two trades that most people thought were unlikely in being able to dump Henson and Delly's contracts while not only picking up a non-guaranteed deal, thereby clearing ~20 million in cap space, but then also picking up someone who had played as well as Mirotic for next to nothing. You disagree and think any GM could have done either. Ok. I get it. There's nowhere for this to go.

That, and just the non-stop endless "I told you so" posts. Some of them so ridiculous we end up hearing someone bragging about being right about Michael Redd. This is just comical to me. I can't help it, but being able to tell because of a "gap" in the muscle of the shoulder and bicep or whatever he said it was? And then just taking the slightest turn of phrase to say, -see, see everyone, ignore that I told you that we had to get rid of Malcolm Brogdon immediately-but after he said he was going to get back in the gym and asked what he was going to work on, after saying LITERALLY "just everything," he said he MIGHT shed a few pounds. So that means I was right and he's out of shape! That's the reason he was able to come back after missing two months in and play 30 MPG in the playoffs while spending most of his time guarding Kawhi Leonard. And now, see, Khris Middleton just said after the last time he was a FA, he fell into the trap of not training enough because he was going to be an FA and the bean pole, 23-year-old Khris Middleton really was out of shape and I totally said that as well. This is such a stupid topic. I've actually done thousands of body fat tests as a coach and have had to have them done for 20 for years before that myself, you cannot tell what someone's body fat is by looking at their arms, you cannot tell by looking at the gaps of muscle(or lack thereof) in the shoulder. What's not being understood here is that Brogdon COULD lose 5 pounds and also NOT be out of shape right now. Khris Middleton, that one is beyond ridiculous, so I'm not even going to touch that same as Redd. Going back 15 years to claim victory in some argument that nobody on here had with you(as far as I know) or even going back to Middleton and translating, "I was worried about getting hurt so I didn't train," as somehow furthering your argument that he's out of shape NOW, which you can tell by looking at him, or again, using the "I knew it back then," I'm not sure what the point of either of these are. You are just WAY too obsessed with these guys physiques and don't seem to understand being in shape for athletes isn't about how you look. It's a fundamental lack of understanding of fitness. It's your diet, it's your workout, stretching, pretty much everything BUT how defined your arms are. There are plenty of guys who work out and who have the definition you're looking for who are in terrible shape to play a sport. Here is what is clear. First of all, Malcom Brogdon was not demonstrably out of shape this year. 2nd, him saying he is going to work on everything and that he MIGHT shed some weight, that's up to him. If he feels better paying at a at 215 as opposed to 220, or if he just loses more weight from working on his legs more, great. It almost certainly will have zero impact on the potential he may have for further injuries. That'll be determined by the type of condition he's in, NOT something you can tell by looking at him. Hell, he was quite a bit skinnier when he hurt his other foot his freshmen year at UVA(basically thesis statement for your argument). Finally, and I'd bet on this one, when everyone on the team comes back next year and says they're in "the best shape of their life," you'll use that as an example to prove that you were right this year and that Khris Middleton, Jack Sikma and Malcom Brodgon were overweight this year.

Posting this tells me you're really only reading and hearing what you want to. I said he didn't have an extra 20 pounds of flab in the picture you posted(the one that was from the wrong year) and then said I'm not even going to argue about Michael Redd as he has nothing to do with this thread.

It is in fact true that Bellinger wasn't part of a package for Braun. The prospects were of lower quality. I don’t have any inside information, and it was a while ago, but I seem to recall reports from either journalists or industry analysts to the effect that Brewers brass insisted on Bellinger, and the Dodgers said no. Maybe I’m not remembering correctly, though, or perhaps it’s all BS; but it makes for a fun story. Bellinger was well-regraded as a prospect, but was not expected to be a superstar, so it sounds like a credible ask on the Brewers’ part. Oh well—myths and legends... I remember hearing the same exact thing when that trade fell through and that was the reason why. Also, funny how many people were so adamant about NOT wanting Josh Bell! Don't get me wrong, at the time that was asked, I wouldn't have wanted to do it and I'm guessing the Pirates wouldn't have done it anyway, so no harm, no foul. But that's a pretty good call.

Ok, sorry your right i ignored your question. Very high probability that Smoak has been told already he’s being shopped so like almost all rental players that go from horrible teams to good teams should be excited(think moose). Just think Schoop the rare exception. I also think it was a shock to Schoop, maybe it was duquette’s not telling him till the last minute. It was a trade that came out of nowhere. So you think that a guy on the worst team, a team that was nearly 50 games under .500 by the trade deadline, that finished 61 games behind in their division, a team that had just traded their franchise player in Machado....you think he was "shocked" he was potentially going to get traded? Ok, fine. I think it's strains the imagination, but if you believe that, ok. But then why do you assume Smoak has been told he'll likely be traded? And then you further this statement by arguing that this player didn't want to play in Milwaukee, that's why he's bad. Not just that he was surprised, but he actively did not want to play here(then signs with a worse team that plays without a roof FTR) and you assume that Smoak would. These situations are nearly identical, so would the two players have the exact opposite reactions to a potential trade? It's one thing to disagree with people, but you don't need to take speculation, then state it as fact in order to support your argument. Unless you heard something about Schoop not wanting to be in Milwaukee, you're just making that up. But you made that statement.

Amen to that. Even petite, skinny wives are tough to hoist up as a shield that quickly. A little levity never hurts!

It was more like the first 7 weeks I'd much rather see CC and Stearns call Shaw and Aguilar in their office and say "If your MLB production doesn't improve between now and the trade deadline, you'll find yourself with limited opportunities for consistent playing time down the stretch on this club, because we can't afford to have offensive black holes at corner IF positions if we really want to win a World Series. If that means we have to make a trade or risk losing one of you to waivers by DFA-ing you, so be it. Stop hitting like pitchers so we don't have a tough decision to make around the AS Break - we don't want it to get to the point where your 2019 struggles become a similar sample size to the periods when you were quality offensive players earlier in your careers we believe you still are, so prove us right." Once Shaw is recalled, I'd really like to see them find a way to keep Hiura up through the AS Break - they have 4 offdays in June sprinkled across what appears to be a very favorable schedule. Seems like they haven't been using the AAA bullpen shuttle too much, and IMO I'd rather they send a pitcher down who still as an option (Burnes, Claudio, etc) to make room for Shaw - I don't think you can take Moose out of the lineup right now, so I wouldn't mind seeing a Shaw at 3rd against righties with Moose at 2nd, then shift Moose to 3rd and give Hiura starts at 2nd against lefties. If they are concerned about super 2 with Hiura, I'd rather they send him down to AAA over the AS Break for a few more weeks, then recall him shortly after the trade deadline. Something tells me this year's trade deadline is going to see the Brewers unloading some of their corner IF excess with hopes of shoring up their MLB bullpen - even if it means having to sell low on guys simply to improve their MLB roster flexibility. And this will do what exactly? Make them try harder? Do you really believe they're struggling because they just don't care? Putting more pressure on two guys who've proven the last two years they can hit just makes zero sense and I'm sure as a former player, CC clearly sees this.

Turang and Arcia look like two totally different players. I've only seen Turang a handful of times, but he does not look like an kid who was playing in HS last year. I didn't realize there was a thread about him, but I just stated on another thread, he reminds me of a potential Trea Turner type talent. I'll admit, I had to go back and look and was surprised by Arcia's BB/SO ratio, but I don't think that should diminish how great Turang has looked. And if he's playing some 2nd right now, that only adds to his versatility. Throw him in center as well. But I do think he'll stick at short and that his upside is as enormous.

Turang looks amazing and it's just so hard for me to fathom that he was in High School last year if you get a chance to watch him. I've seen him a couple times when I've been in Appleton. It'd be shocked if he didn't turn into at least a Brandon Crawford level player and I think he's got a real chance to be a Trea Turner type talent. I'd definitely be targeting him if I was another team and I would have him right up there with Hiura and Burnes as the guys I have as untouchable. Not sure if there would be a 4th player on list of young guys.

That's amazing. Started just one year at UWGB and is now a contributor on what MAY be the greatest team of all time. I watched a highlight...after I'd learned he went to UWGB of him, and he looked like an incredible athlete. He chased a guy down, blocked the ball, ran back up the court, beating his man and hit a corner 3. Only seen a little bit, but he looks like the type of guy every team could use.

VERY few athletes can get in with an ACT score that low. That requires an appeal by a team for admissions to review an applicant who'd been denied and even then it's not a given. As of just a couple years ago the Football team had just 8 of those. They could only try that 8 times. Pretty much everyone had a problem with that from Barry to the coaches. I don't know how many other sports get, but for instance, I know someone who got into Oklahoma State in another sport, dominated there and was one of the best in the Nation, had a 23 ACT score and didn't get in. Another got into NeBraska, though I don't know what his ACT score actually was, the family said a 21. So I usually take 2 points off as a starting point. I believe the average, just to get in without athletics being considered is like 29 and a GPA around 4.

I feel like this is far more egregious than anything the city did to me. Brock Holt?