HiAndTight

The difference moving forward IMO will be us, namely Giannis. But even under your assumption, Kyrie and LeBron going to NYN is not the same as LeBron and Wade in Miami. Durant's going to be 30 years old. Those three(you're forgetting Bosh who was an All-NBA player before joining) made a deeper and better team. That's not to mention that's just complete conjecture that those two are going to both go to the same team, a franchise that has been absolute garbage and will have almost no depth. Nobody knows what Durant or Kyrie are going to do. I'd be more worried that Boston adds AD and thins out some of it's "assets" in order to create an actual roster, but even if that happens, it's not supposed to be easy to win an NBA championship. I guess it comes down to this, do you believe Giannis is going to be the best player in the NBA in the coming years or not. If you don't, I get being scared. If you believe he's going to improve as I do and you have confidence in Horst AND our coaches, I don't get why you'd be less confident in this teams future? I love Giannis. And he's fantastic. But no, in terms of being able to elevate his game to a different level this time of year and put a team on his back, he's no LeBron, or even a Curry. At least not yet. He's another superstar, a Westbrook, a George, a Lillard. Not THE superstar. I don't know what will happen with Kawhi, or AD, or whoever. But it's incredibly difficult to get back to this stage. Things happen, injuries happen, and we all know, there will be turnover. Middleton, Lopez, Hill, Mirotic, Brogdon...these guys are not all going to be back, and we simply wont be able to replace them in the draft or free agency. Last time we were at this stage it took 18 years to get back. You just never know. Part of it is I'm getting a little jaded. Between the Packers, Brewers and Bucks, if the Bucks don't come back we'll be 0 for our last 6 and 1 for our last 9 in conference championships. It's incredibly frustrating. Or Durant. Just because Golden State's so deep, don't forget about their best player. No, he's not that type of offensive force yet. He doesn't have a well enough rounded game just yet. But he's gonna get there. LeBron wasn't LeBron until he started hitting the jumper more. Even Jordan had to add a Jumper to his game(though he was different with the way he could handle the ball, he had some absolutely terrible post-season games shooting 9 for 37). I get the jaded thing. But really, did you think the Brewers were the best team? Did you ever believe in your life the Buck were the best team? This Bucks team is different. They're like the Packers(who've also choked, but they've also won one). They have the best player at the most important spot. Keep the faith brother!

Just getting back from the Bucks game after commiserating with some fans with a couple of adult beverages after the game. Walking out of the arena, it reminded me of 2008 when the Brewers were choking away their playoff chances down the stretch, or even more the Favre pick vs the Giants in the NFCCG. The stadium was ready to go absolutely nuts on several occasions just waiting for SOMEONE to hit an open 3 when we still had the lead to try and put the Raptors away for good. Didn't happen. That said, kinda surprised to come back here and find so many people so down on the Bucks chances. Not for this series as this one obviously is not looking good, but moving forward. This team reminds me of the Packers in the 90's. They're trying to get there all at once without going through the struggles. Even more surprised to hear how little we think of Jon Horst now, but that's something I have little interest getting involved in. I'll just say this. The Bucks play in the East, they have a guy who's probably going to be the best player in the world in the next year or two(Durant is 31 I think, LeBron at least 5 years older, Giannis is just entering his prime years at 24) and I believe we've got a good supporting cast around him. He's only going to get better. And the Knicks...isn't it premature to worry about the Knicks before KD coems or the Celtics before AD comes? This is just all wild speculation at this point. And even if both happen, they still have the Greek Freak! Giannis started knocking down that jumper tonight, but the Raptors little guy who hasn't done anything for them all post-season decided he was going to have a career night. This team WILL be back. I don't like absolutes, but I'm guaranteeing it right now. Giannis isn't going to sit around and watch his team platau? No, this dude is going to do what he's been doing. Obsessively, complusively, manically go back to the Gym and work on the area's of his game that the other team doesn't respect right now, his jumper, hi s3 point shot and then his flaws, his FT shooting and his turnovers ore poor decision making in the restricted area. Remember, Kawhi will most likely be gone next year, Kyrie will most likely be gone next year. KD and Kyrie may team up, but even if that's a successful combo, they seldom do well enough to beat a elite team like the Bucks in yr one. I think we underestimated the Raptors. I remember saying that I'd hoped the Sixers would win the series because I thought they would be easier to beat because they had no bench and Embid looked awfully out of shape and was for some reason soiling himself(i don't know if he was literally or not, but he said he was literally doing so). This Raptors team has multiple Defensive players of the YEAR on it's team. Gasol, Ibaka and Kawhi(I believe Ibaka was a DPOY, if not I know he was consistently in the top 3-4 in voting). Kawhi is more than just a DPOY. He's a friggin boa constrictor. It's amazing to see him up close. His arms seemingly hang down around his ankles, he just looks SO hard to move when Giannis comes into the lane and tries to back him down at all and he doesn't even look like he had to jump, he almost looks like Giannis with that long arse arm going up there to try and block a shot or reach out and get in to the passing lanes. I know this, Giannis isn't a punk. This Bucks team is full of high character guys. I do NOT agree with CHL that George Hill is our second most important player, but I do believe he's a winner and a damn good player. I don't think we have a team that's gonna fold. At least not from an effort standpoint. And after listening to Giannis talking after the game....well, he said it, he's pissed. He said, "we ARE coming back to Milwaukee." This will be the ultimate test for this young, upstart Bucks team. But even if they should fall short, this has been the most fun I've had since I watched the Bucks Big3 play, and that team is nothing like this team. Maybe it Tim Thomas was a freak of nature who had the footwork of a ballerina and who could take a couple dribbles and then euro step his way to the basket from half court, but he wasn't. We had a bunch of shooters. Bledsoe came out tonight and looked like maybe he got his confidence back a bit, Giannis needs to have a plan when he attacks and he can't just go in there out of control. Which leads me to my second guarantee. I won't guarantee that we win game 6, but I damn sure guarantee Fred VanVleet doesn't hit 8 3's or whatever the heck it was that little hobbit had and I guarantee this team plays hard. Just too many character guys on this team. Giannis Hill(listed 2nd because of his playoff experiance) Brogdon(his nickname seems really appropriate) Middleton Ersan Bledsoe Lopez These guys have too much pride to fold up after a tough loss. They're gonna come out swinging like Tyson in the 80's. They may miss, but they're gonna connect. That team that won games 1 and 2 and then lost game 3 in OT wasn't some fluke. The team that won 60 games wasn't a fluke. The team that blew the doors off a MORE taletented Boston team(not better, but more individiual talent) wasn't a fluke. They're gonna play hard and I know that the easiest thing in the world right now is to get down on the team, the organization and start feeling sorry, but c'mon guys....we've got the Greek Freek. We're able to watch a guy that people will be talking about in 40 years play in his prime, at the start of his ascension to BB royalty. Anyway, if the Raptors can come back from down 2-0 to go ahead 3-2, and VanVleet can make 8 3's, the Bucks can sure as hell come back in game 6 and who knows, maybe it'll be Mirotic, maybe Lopez, maybe Bledsoe will have gained some momentum. I don't know and I don't care. I want to watch this team play one more time, even if it's walking off in Milwaukee as the loser it's a helluva lot better that just resinging myself to the fate that the Bucks are not only done for this year, but they're probably done with their shot to compete. Or hell, they've missed their window and Giannis, the guy who care most about being great and being a winner, he is is gonna walk away after this year! (I realize nobody said that, but the general mood in here seems pretty damn bleak...and understandably so, but suck it up and root for this team in game 6. We'll have the whole off-season to argue about GM's and commiserate.

He made no public demands to be traded. It was reported by anonymous sources. This is true, but he's holding out. So if he was a good player, it's effectively public since people would notice it right away. Because it was Jones, people didn't really care and it took a month to find out he was skipping OTA's and the off-season program.

Let start with just basic common sense. One of the two has exceeded expectations given the talent available to him. The other has played far below expectations given the talent available to him in the toughest spots. And you really believe his "entire" reputation was built upon one season? Are you of the belief that this season doesn't count? That his career with the Spurs doesn't count? And if you continue to argue the point, how exactly is that tongue in cheek? It seems more like a strawman argument that sarcasm or somehow tongue in cheek. I'm not sure what Bud has done that hasn't exceeded expectations yet. Bledsoe on the other hand, as our 3rd best player...has been awful in these playoffs and I don't really understand how it's productive to even begin to try and argue otherwise. It's pretty much a consensus. Right up there with-Giannis is good and Curry can shoot there's Bledsoe has been choking in this series for us. We could also go back to last year when he was outplayed by Terry Rozier([sarcasm]must have been Coach Buds fault[/sarcasm]). Now hopefully he'll come out and not run into the lane and just throw the ball away hoping it finds a teammate or maybe he'll start knocking down some open shots. But again, as adambr said, this shouldn't really be a controversial take. In the tough games, in the tough series...he's been awful. You somehow want to equate that with Coach Bud's teams overperforming and then losing to team with the most physically dominant player of his era, despite him not having any superstars of his own? I don't really get the sarcasm. If you don't believe that Bledsoe has been choking, just say that. No need to create an obviously ridiculous strawman in order to illustrate that point. And if you don't believe that, tell us why our eyes and every analyst, former player and fan is seeing something you're NOT seeing.

Whatever they do with Kawhi, I do hope they don't feel the need to keep doubling and triple teaming him every time down. He's not Giannis. Switch up Brogdon, Middleton, Brown, maybe some Giannis on him, but we don't need to double him. Just play smart basketball and if he gets the angle, we have guys who can meet him at the rim. I do agree with everything else you said other than Drake. We can complain about him. I do think Giannis and company need to not worry about him and frankly, it doesn't seem like they are. Coach Bud begrudgingly gave an answer after being asked multiple times about Drake and in his answer he even said, "it sounds like he's doing it(walking onto the court) more often than I'm noticing." Drakes pissing me off because it happens to be coinciding with Giannis hitting a couple airballs or being way short on a FT and then he's acting like a clown. But as long as the Bucks don't let it get to them, it's all good.

A handful of pitchers. Notable ones? Brown would come to mind. Ray's been absolutely awful in AAA, so hard to imagine them bringing him up and hoping they get much out of him at the big league level.

[sarcasm]If only there was a way to do so on this board....[/sarcasm] But no, I don't think that's what he was doing at all. If you're being sarcastic, you usually don't follow it up by continuing to argue the "sarcastic" point.

No, I'd definitely been bumped into by someone. I've never been shoved by someone's back and then immediately apologized to. Weren't you the one that said just saying something is true doesn't make it so?

Seems like you're the one saying those things and it's ONLY you questioning Coach Bud's coaching ability. Had the Bucks gone 6 vs the Piston's and gone out in the 2nd round, you'd have a point. But to be shocked that they're in a competitive series vs a 58 win team(a team that's been to several ECF's and has only failed to get by LeBron) and trying to somehow turn his success in Atlanta without a real star player against him somehow is laughable. And calling a man a quitter is.....well, it's something I'd expect to see on twitter, not so much on this forum. Cheap shot and completely made up to say the least.

Bud's always got that face. After the game 2 playoff win when he was giving his press conference he had the same look on his face. It's a look like he just stepped onto an elevator with a foul smell type of look. It's just his default look. That he got that Atlanta team to 60 wins was a marvel. I don't know how you can put any of this on Bud. Toronto was a 58 win team and could have probably won 60 if they'd have pushed some of their guys a bit more.

Yeah, calling that a shove is laughable. It looked like he had his shoulder turned trying to walk past him. And that's after the game. I usually consider a shove extending your arms. Not bumping into a guy as you're walking past him with your shoulders turned away from him. Either way, Drake's a clown but we wouldn't care nearly as much if he wasn't celebrating right as Giannis was air-balling a couple FT's or missing big shots. There are steps you have to go through to become the best. Jordan had to get by the Piston's with their physical D and the Jordan rules, Giannis has to learn to get by teams walling him off, or he has to find a way to create separation on a freakishly talented defender like Kawhi. I'm just hoping they can adjust mid-series and it doesn't take an off-season for him to do so. Still, if the Bucks find a way to win game 3, there's a good chance the Raptors lie down. So I don't think things are as dire as they looked. Toronto fans were apoplectic after game 2 in Milwaukee and resigned to their fate. Now a lot of Bucks fans are feeling the same way. The only thing that's changed is my level of confidence in a potential finals series and that's really more because of how Golden State has looked. I'm gonna bet that Bledsoe starts tonight, so it'd be great if he could start off by taking it to the basket and just going up strong. He's such a physical player and while he's short, he's got long arms. He can still be an effective player playing that way and that could very easily get him going in other aspects. I'd also like to see them move the ball better. They're holding the ball too long and they look tentative, even with their passes. Part of that is Toronto's long defenders getting in the passing lanes, but most of it is on the Bucks.

I think this is the root of the issue with the Bucks right now. This is also part of learning how to win. I get what Snapper is saying about how we can't count on next year, especially after 2001 when it looked like we'd have that team together for a while and all the sudden it was just blown up, but that's not the case here. But call it playing scared or playing tight, they're not being decicive and they're making poor, lazy passes, they're dribbling into a crowd out of control(mainly Giannis at times and Bledsoe most of the time) and they seemed timid in the two road games. Honestly, they didn't play great in game 1 either. They were lucky that Lopez came up so big for them. Still, we've got too good of a coach and our players are smart enough that I'm pretty confident going into game 5 at home. I still think it's a 6 game series...

Or the money we lost that we could have used to take a flier or two. And I really don't care what stats you throw up there, Claudio is not in the same league as Knebel. I remember there were the stats floating around trying to show how he was comparable to Kimbrel, Knebel, and Jeffress. He's a soft-tossing lefty who played for a bad team. I'm not going to argue the merits of WAR because it's a great tool, but it's not flawless. I hated trading the 39th pick for a guy like Claudio when we did it and watching him pitch for a half makes it far worse. Give me Dan Jennings, the 39th pick and the slot money that comes with that every day....and I'm sure Stearns would do the same if he could go back.

How many times can you send a prospect to the AZFL? I thought they could only go once, but I may be mistaken. Houser pitched in it the year before despite not coming back until halfway through the season. Either way, I'm not sure Houser is the same caliber arm that Rasmussen is. Perhaps if the Brewers had only one high leverage reliever they could really count on and Houser was throwing the ball well, he may have been used out of the pen last year. Tough to say since we left pitchers like Anderson off the post-season roster and there really weren't many innings to go around. That makes the decision easier. This year, even assuming we pick up one or two relievers, we're still going to likely need some internal help.

Weren't we equally sure that they weren't going to let him go over 3 IP/50 pitches as well? He's already in Double A. If he's healthy and throwing well, I think they use him in the post-season or in a post-season push.

I did. I always said he was the most dominant force, but absolutely not the best player. I can't give that praise to guy that shoots 50% from the line. Just can't. It also kinda changes things when you have one of the best shooting guard to ever play on the same team. That's a ridiculous standard. The Bucks don't have anyone who's even remotely close to Kobe to put the ball in their hands late in games. Kobe was the guy who took the ball in the biggest moments. Kobe was the Killer. Shaq couldn't win without a Kobe or Wade. If the Bucks somehow manage to add a poor mans Jordan to the Bucks, then I guess Giannis won't have to worry about improving his shot. I think the better question is what is the possible argument for NOT wanting Giannis to improve at that area of the game when it's so obvious it's his biggest flaw and it's equally obvious he's capable of doing so? This guy was not a great player in Greece's second division just 6 years ago. He's not a finished player yet and I don't see what's wrong with being able to admit that.

Particularly with Giannis as that could literally make him the greatest ever as many other former and current players or analysts have said. IF he develops a reliable shot, it makes him completely unstoppable.

Most of this is a strawman argument, best examples of that bolded. Giannis is the best player in the league. He will be in the HOF. Nobody will ever wear #34 ever again in Milwaukee. But without being able to shoot, he can't take over and score whenever he wants. That's especially important at the end of games when you want the ball in the hands of an elite player. He's not that type of player, neither was Shaq. Heck, Shaq needed to be benched at the end of games once hack-a-shaq became a thing. I'm not suggesting (nor has anyone) that Giannis should shoot more. He's kicking it out as he should, and as i mentioned earlier he should start games seeing himself more as an old school PG and don't worry about scoring until things loosen up a bit as the game goes on. Bottom line, not being able to be the man at the end of game, or even stretches during the game when offense is suffering, is his downside. When you NEED a shot, would you rather have your HOF take it, or shuffle it off to whoever is open? What if that someone is Bledsoe or Lopez? For many, many years there hasn't been a star of the team that was won a championship who can't shoot. Giannis is so different and special he may change that, but we're fighting history. Completely agree. Once his shot improves, he's going to become impossible to defend. I think literally the only person I've heard who hasnt agreed with this is Shaq himself while watching the halftime shows. He starts being able to knock down the open shot and even Kawhi's not going to be able to guard him. Without the open shot, we've seen what Kawhi is able to do to him during this season and in the post-season. He was still an enormously effective player in the last game with the rebounds and everything else he does. I'm just glad Giannis is looking to always improve even if others don't think he needs to. I really don't understand the argument AGAINST Giannis needing to improve his shot. It's something LeBron had to do in order to continue his ascension, it's something Jordan had to do. And it's something Giannis has to do. Hell, he's even said it himself. Until then, we need our deep supporting cast to hit shots, soften them up. And even using last game as an example, there were quite a few shots he missed that he normally makes within 5 feet. But without a good shot, he forced the issue, Kawhi played great D on him and he went into the lane with Kawhi on him and a combination of Gasol, Ibaka, and Pascal coming over to help.

You realize Curry just stepped in and took over as the primary scorer in Durant's place, right? It's hard to use the argument that. And you keep saying ISO ball, most everyone else is just talking about shooting. His shot needs to improve to be the best in the world. Hardly a complaint, just a simple opinion that most people agree with. And Shaq was a dominant force, but he had Kobe who could get his own shot and score and then Wade in his prime. He had huge flaws in his game that made him need another star in the biggest moments. Giannis is the MVP, he's not the best player in the NBA yet. He's got to be able to knock down the open shots on a consistent basis for him to take the last step. It's hardly a huge insult to say that in order to become the best player he has to become a slightly better shooter from both the FT line and if not 3 point range, that mid-range game. Otherwise, everyone knows where he's going. Given the enormous jumps he's made in past seasons, there's little reason to doubt he'll become a better shooter.

That's good in theory, but play it out? It's a clown show in real life. You have the worst teams playing in an NIT type tourney while the NBA playoffs are going on? And the lowest seeded teams get to pick if they want to be in the playoffs? If the 7th and 8th seeds don't "want" to make the playoffs, why would the 9th and 10th seeds? Just so they can get curb stomped by a GSW or Bucks team and then not get a lottery pick? It's just not feasible. The NBA is doing well. The only thing I'd change is you just make it like every other sport, worst records, best picks. That is if you're that intent on changing the lottery. But these other ideas...they're almost certainly never going to actually happen.

No, because tanking will never be dead. Lottery pick isn't the only reason a team tanks. If you know you're not going to be a good team, you trade away any assets you have to clear up cap space for the future. So you tank. Getting a top lottery pick is nice too, but still worth tanking without that. Exactly....but now the main difference starts to appear. All teams will clear their cap space if they don't have a chance to contend, but the top FA's aren't going to come to Milwaukee or Cleveland or other small market teams 9 times out of 10. So this is just a way to hurt small market teams even further. With everything the Knicks have done wrong, including trading a freakishly talented player, they could easily end up with two superstars and the 3rd pick in the draft, likely RJ Barrett. Taking away draft picks from bad teams will just make those bad teams bad for longer. It's rare that a team gets a future MVP with the 15th pick. Even Curry was a low pick for an MVP type player.

I think my way would end tanking immediately. It'd likely also ruin franchises for very long periods of time. Still not sure I understand the problem with tanking or why it's so much more focused on in the NBA. It happens in the NFL(it's really going to happen the next two years with Lawrence almost certainly the top pick in the 2021 draft) and it happens in baseball.

I hadn't seen that he'd asked to be traded or released when I replied. He's kidding himself. He couldn't learn the Packers defense, but he thinks he's going to fit in with another team and learn their defense at this point? And who the heck is he to demand or even request anything? But now with him asking out, you were right, he's got absolutely no value. I still think he could be a good special teams player or serve a role in sub packages, but he can't start as we've seen and if he's asking out, what team is gonna give up anything to pick him up? Maybe just due to his size and athletic ability we'll get a late round pick for him, but agree with you, a conditional 7th is what I'd expect and that condition very well may not be met because he's going to be out of position so much. The Redskins badly need a safety again this off-season after both Haha and Swearinger left. Maybe they'll toss another pick our way.

I don't think his toughness has ever been an issue. He's a physical player and a hard hitter. He's just lost in coverage and they've never really been able to use him in that Deonne Buchannan type role or Mark Barron type role. Just put him out there, make his job really simple and you've got a really nice role player. I definitely don't think keeping him or trading him to move on from TT's last years makes any sense. If we were to do that, then what do we do with Kenny Clark. With Wilkerson still out there, I'd look into trading Mike Daniels. If you can get a 4th for him and then sign Wilkerson for 4 million or so, that's probably a smart move. Lane Taylor is another guy we could move on from at this point. But I think we'd first need someone to step up and claim the 3rd safety role before trading Jones and then we'd have to balance what a future pick that's probably not going to be of any value(especially if it's a conditional pick) and Jones is salary is worth vs what he has shown he can do on ST's and what we're speculating he could do in a reduced role.

There's always value for big physical guys with speed like him. He can help out in sub packages and he could become a ST's ace. Plus he's cheap. He's just fallen way short of our expectations and hasn't been the playmaker we hoped he'd be. He can still play the run and play TE's pretty effectively. He's a terrible starting safety though.