ramssuperbowl99

I don't think its inconceivable that Gamel ends up as good as the players on the last half of your list. Heck, Morse was in the same position Gamel is now and never hit minor league pitching as well as Gamel has. I'm not against trying to upgrade ANY position but 1B just wouldn't be at the top of my list as I feel the cost to make a sure significant upgrade in terms of either dollars or prospects could be used elsewhere. I like Either as much as the next guy. If LA would trade him straight up for Gamel I'd certainly consider that move. Would that 10-12 million paid to Either hinder us from improving at SS, 3B or from keeping the bullpen stable? I'm not sure. It would just be nice to have Gamel step up and pencil him in at 1B at a nice cost for the next few years seeing he's already on the roster. Name half of those guys. Because I listed 14 guys and 7 of them are .400 wOBA potential hitters. I wouldn't even offer Gamel for Ethier. If the Dodgers want to get anything more than a Kentrail Davis type prospect, they need to offer up some money. Ethier has very little surplus value.

Fangraphs' Matt Klassen: Comment From Mark Thoughts on what Milwaukee does with Gamel?http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/icons/fb_share2.png12:17Matt Klaassen: I'm not sure what they will do with him. They do not seem to have much faith in his abilities -- I know that I would not count on him as a major-league 1B unless it was for a rebuilding team who could afford to give a guy like him a long look. He's not all that young, and he's not all that good.

Even if you say the Brewers stashed him at AAA since 2010, that puts him in the majors as a 25 year old. Not exactly a 22 year old stud.Well, at age 22, he was considered a top 20-25 prospect in the game so yes he was a 22 year old stud who never got a legit chance for whatever reason. I'll concede he probably shouldn't play 3rd and he might not ever end up an elite player. However, I think he's being dismissed by some as not an option to play 1B this season for some reason when he's likely a better option than almost anyone we could bring in via FA. "Whatever reason" is code for utter lack of defensive improvements (since those rankings have him improving his defense and becoming a steady defender at 3B, not as a 1B), a hidden injury that he didn't mention, and never really dominating AAA like a top prospect would be expected when repeating the level (wRC+ of 128 and 122 are nice, but not otherworldly). And he's not an elite player. He's not going to be. He's a 1B. Here are some 1B/DH who are either almost assuredly going to end up better than him or already are:Pujols, Fielder, A-Gonz, Tex, Miguel Cabrera, Votto, Hosmer, Freeman, Belt, Montero, Billy Butler, Alonso, Morse, Konerko, and probably a bunch more that I missed. If "almost everyone we can bring in via FA" means we only look at 1B candidates, don't pursue any trades and generally don't try overly hard to bring in a better player. Then maybe. Gamel has a chance to be a 2 win 1B. That's a useful piece, but not the kind of player who is above trying to upgrade if possible.

Even if you say the Brewers stashed him at AAA since 2010, that puts him in the majors as a 25 year old. Not exactly a 22 year old stud.

Gamel still being in the organization is 0 indication of his talent level. The Brewers have butchered the handling of Gamel, imo. He needs to be given a chance to play, and actually he put a pretty respectable line in 2009, when he was up for about a half season. I'd stick him at 1B to start the season without reservation. It's his time to sink or swim. I'd say there's more data supporting he'll hit just fine as opposed to not. Why? He can't play 3rd. The Brewers tried everything they could to get him to stick there and he didn't. I don't really want him there either, but the original post referenced moving Hart to 1B if we acquired a RF. I don't like that option, but if those were 1st two moves I'd move him to 3rd. I'd put him back at 3rd before I put him in RF. He's played like 7 seasons of minor league ball at 3rd hasn't he? I would've hoped they would've figured out he has no chance to play over there before last season if he's truly horrible there. I'm not saying he can or can't play 3rd. I guess the data says he's not all that good, but I thought I remember somebody indicating alot of his problems were throwing and not actually fielding the ball. Gamel being in the minors until his age 27 season at best is clearly an indication of his talent level. How can you possibly say otherwise? If he was talented enough to barge down the door and force Milwaukee's hand, he would been dealt because someone else would have given him a shot and given up something valuable to get him. While there are exceptions to the 22-24-26 rule, they are usually guys who have had their development curbed by playing a different sport, going to college for 4 years, or being so extraordinarily toolsy that it takes them a long time to build up the required hand eye coordination to succeed. Gamel is none of these things. He's played 7 seasons of minor league ball at 3B because the organization was desperate for him to work out there because of Prince Fielder's presence. It didn't, which is why he was moved. And you might not say that he "can or can't play 3B", but I will. He can't. It's like sticking Mark Kotsay in CF.

Yeah they are. Considering we got 6 wins of production from the CF spot, I'd say they are. But, no, go ahead. Go get rid of two cost controlled CF who compliment each other wonderfully to go get a free agent who may or may not have any knees anymore and is made of glass. That makes sense. But signing Jose Reyes to a long term deal makes more sense? Signing Reyes is dumb, but it makes infinitely more sense than going out of your way to create a hole, then plugging it with a declining free agent. There is no reason for the Brewers to be looking at free agents other than RP, 1B, SS, and RF. Maybe SP if you can unload Wolf. Maybe 3B if you don't like Green.

Yeah they are. Considering we got 6 wins of production from the CF spot, I'd say they are. But, no, go ahead. Go get rid of two cost controlled CF who compliment each other wonderfully to go get a free agent who may or may not have any knees anymore and is made of glass. That makes sense.

Because Grady Sizemore isn't a SS. He's a CF and we already have two of them.

Fiers has almost no value. Schafer is a C prospect. This would be more like Peralta/Gindl/One of the first round pitchers from last year and maybe the Jays would listen. Escobar is one of the best SS in the league. I laugh at your Fiers comment. And a good handful of teams will prefer Schafer and his CF potential to that of a tiny corner OF (as long as we are in "putdown mode" for brewers prospects). Yeah I bet the Blue Jays would just be ecstatic to get a premium talent like Gindl in RF to take over for that scrub Jose Bautista or a ridiculously toolsy OF like Schafer to finally give the organization a real CF prospect besides Colby Rasmus or Anthony Gose. If Melvin actually proposes a trade like that he's either just going to get laughed at and hung up on, or the organization would be so insulted they'd never speak to him again. This isn't a video game.

Gamel is 2 WAR player with his bat alone, he's league average (depending on the position), unless he completely tanks which seems unlikely. I have no problem projecting him to hit over .260, OBP over .330, and SLG over .440. Those are extremely conservative numbers and he'd still put up a .770 OPS. He could easily provide positive value with his glove as well which is something Fielder has never done. He's an above average talent all the way around, he may never be a super star, and he certainly may tank, but he's twice as talented as a guy like McGehee and I for one would like to see him get a full time gig in Milwaukee for 2012. I'd rather not put him in the OF, 1B would be a better destination. I'm not fond of the position musical chairs the organization has played with Hart and I'd rather not see Gamel transition out there as well. No idea how you are getting that he's 20 runs above average with the bat. Rickie Weeks was at 18 BRAA this year. Tex was at 22. Josh Hamilton was at 20. Carlos Gonzalez was at 23. Mat Gamel is a nice piece to have, but he doesn't come close to those guys. Also, I think Gamel will be a nice defensive 1B, but most posters here are acting like it's a foregone conclusion. We don't know that he's a +5 1B, or even that he's a scratch 1B. He hasn't had much experience there, and even though teams are liable to stick a guy like Fielder or Carlos Lee there, being a good defensive 1B takes time. And, quite frankly, if he was an above average talent, he would have been dealt by now. The organization clearly doesn't like him and Gamel would have been deemed valuable enough by someone else to force the Brewers' hand.

You are right, however I believe the Cubs will get Pujols and not Fielder for those exact reasons. Pujols is the better option and Epstein knows he cannot hide Prince's bad D at DH like he could with Ortiz. My money is on Prince going to either Seattle, Anaheim, or Baltimore. Epstein spoke directly in his press conference about targeting players during their primes in the FA market (ages 27-32). He basically removed himself from the Pujols discussion. Not sure he's going to be overly involved with Fielder either, to be honest. The Cubs window is 3-4 years away, Epstein knows that and won't be under pressure to win immediately given his track record and long contract.

Agreed. I'm excited to finally see what Gamel can do when given a legit chance. I wouldn't trade Hart but if Hart was moved to 1st I'd try and sign David DeJesus. I'd then move Gamel back to 3rd.Why? He can't play 3rd. The Brewers tried everything they could to get him to stick there and he didn't.

What you meant to say is that there are very few players currently in the PCL and International League who will be above average hitters. And this is true. And TheCrew07 has it right, which is why I started the whole discussion with "for what it's worth". Though the guy who stated that his expectations were to get 2.5 WAR out of Gamel is crazy. Freddie Freeman, Eric Hosmer, Mark Trumbo, and a ton of other 1B can speak otherwise. In fact, only Joey Votto, Garrett Jones and Ike Davis broke the 2.5 WAR mark as 1B in recent years(unless you count Buster Posey, which you shouldn't). It's really hard to come into the big leagues and have success immediately. It's even harder to do it when you're 26 years old, won't be given a long leash, and the organization has pretty much done everything it can to make it clear they don't like you. Gamel is probably a 1.5 win player next season based on true talent. Not bad, but not Andre Ethier or a number of other targets the Brewers could go after.

Hit better than Mat Gamel did. Taylor Green's MLE line is a much better .292/.358/.483.

I'm sorry, I put in PA instead of AB in the calculator. It's actually .273/.324/.450. Once again, not really close to Ethier, even if it is a decent line with above average defense.

Gamel is "more than likely" a 2.5 win player this upcoming season? News to me. (Keep in mind, I did Ethier's projected WAR figuring below average defense in RF. He's probably closer to 3 wins as an above average 1B.) I don't think it's doubtful that Gamel can put up numbers somewhere near James Loney (.288, .339, .416) with above average defense at 1B. Once again, if you're blowing 12M on a 1B, who is going to be your league minimum SS?Doesn't need to be a league minimum SS, the Brewers have more than $12 M to spend both now (because of the playoff run) and later (because of a new TV deal). Clint Barmes would be my choice. And FWIW, major league equivalents put Mat Gamel's 2011 at .247/.296/.408 in Milwaukee. Andre Ethier's career line is .291/.364/.479 despite playing in a pitcher's park. They aren't that close to one another.

Gamel is "more than likely" a 2.5 win player this upcoming season? News to me. (Keep in mind, I did Ethier's projected WAR figuring below average defense in RF. He's probably closer to 3 wins as an above average 1B.)

Maybe Upton from 2008 sure he was an All Star but not since then. Upton2009: AVG .241 OBP .313 SLG .3732010: AVG .237 OBP .322 SLG .4242011: AVG .257 OBP .331 SLG .429 After just looking at those stats which are not all that great and then looking at Upton's defense he is not a All-Star caliber player anymore. Defensively Gomez is better and when you look at both defense and offensive production Gomez actually is a better player than Upton. Plus Gomez is going to have a lower salary so actually it is the other way around this trade really isn't fair for the Brewers as they are getting a player with lower quality. Offensively Upton is going to be better than Gomez but overall they are almost equal in value to a team.BJ Upton has been worth 2.4, 4.0 and 4.1 WAR the past 3 seasons. Carlos Gomez's career high in WAR is 2.6, and 17+ runs of that came from UZR. So this is just quite simply not true, and I find it especially amusing that you don't bother posting Gomez's offensive statistics, which give Upton a 40+ point OBP advantage. People don't like Upton because he was supposed to be a 7 win player and he's not, and he comes off as lazy, but he's a very good defender in CF, walks a ton, hits for some power, is a great baserunner, and even though it feels like he's been around for ever he's only about 1 year older than Go Go. That said, I don't see him as a fit quite simply because the Rays are going to be able to stick Jennings in LF or RF, don't have many internal OF options to begin with, have a real chance to win the division next year, and don't need pitching (which is what the Brewers have to deal). Further, much of Morgan's and Upton's value comes from playing great CF defense, and we can only stick 1 guy in CF. Personally, the guy I think makes sense is Andre Ethier. He's going to get about $12 M in arbitration this season, the Dodgers can't pay that and he won't have a ton of surplus value. In addition, he sparred with the front office and is coming off of a knee injury. Considering he's probably about a 2.5 win player, the Crew could take on his salary, give up a C+ prospect for him, and stick him at 1B.

The answer is no, except if the series goes to game 5, where the Brewers would get an extra home game and thus more revenue. Which is why pitching Greinke like this is some huge game is stupid.

Recap of the discussion with FVBrewerfan: FVBF: "Positional weighting is subjective."Rams/Topper: *A whole bunch of mathematically backed information demonstrating that while they are not exactly precise, positional weights are not subjective*FVBF: "Of course the position weighting is subjective."

What is subjective about WAR? Read through this and show me where any subjectivity comes in:http://www.insidethebook....le/how_to_calculate_war/ What is NOT subjective about it? Arbitrary "value" given to different positions, Uzr is part of the formula, estimated factors for games played, etc. But the biggest problem is the junk science that is the leap between above/below avg performance and win shares. It is impossible to conclude player x is worth 2.7 wins a year. There's just now way to prove it. I'm guessing you don't know where the positional adjustment values come from, and therefore think they are subjective. That's wrong. It's the difference in BRAA for SS, CF, etc. etc that determines the positional adjustment. No subjectivity there. UZR might not be accurate, especially in small samples, but that has no bearing on it's subjectivity. Obviously, the replacement part is arbitrary to a point, but 2 wins per 650 PA seems to provide a fairly accurate benchmark based on the eye test as a 0 point. Further, even if the value is off, it's off by the same amount for everyone who plays the same amount of games, meaning it's not that big a deal since all the value is relative anyway. That "leap" you mention between wins (and runs) and performance is not even close to subjective. It all relies on Pythagorean Win Expectancy, then converting defense and offensive plays into run values, which is easy given the wealth of data available. Nothing subjective there.

Pull him. No reason to let him make a mistake here.

What? Votto is definitely better than Braun and hasn't gotten lucky at all this season.

We might have bad K-Rod today.

Also, Marcum pitcher very well through 5. Jinx.I didn't mention the magic word, though!