RoseBowlMtg

No he didn't but what is interesting is that: Helton hit 17 HR's from the 4th position batting behind Holliday and Johhny Groundout hit 6 HR's Corey Hart hit 6 HR's Geoff Jenkins hit 7 HR's Those three Brewers hit 19 HR's batting after Prince compared to Helton's 17. So it is true he didn't have Helton but he did have players who hit 2 more HR's than Helton.

True Prince didn't have much of a hitter behind him with the catcher behind him but Hart was pretty good. Your stats are correct about his obp being .435 but when you say nobody wanted to pitch to him then give him credit for the walks you are giving both to him. He had 18 walks and 11 were IBB. Take the automatic walks out which you blame on Johhny Groundout and his earned obp was .328 compared to Holliday's .424 taking his 1 IBB out. All I am saying is you can't just blow off the RBI stat saying it is worthless. Take a deeper look and you can get some info out of it. Prince had 11 hits and 7 non IBB and one hbp in 58 PA. If he hit better the Brewers would have been better.

endaround you are so correct which is unfortunate imo. For ex: If RBI's are so uninportant the difference btwn Holliday's 137 and Prince's 119 would be meaningless which some stat heads think. So what if Prince hit what Holliday hit and vice versa with 2 outs and risp. Prince was 11-15 1 HR 15 RBI's hitting .220 Holliday was 23-72 3 HR's 27 RBI's hitting .319 If Prince hit .319 he would have had 16 hits x 1.364 = 22 RBI's or 126 for the year. If Holliday hit .220 he would have had 16 hits x 1.174 = 19 RBI's or 128 for the year. Something as simple as keeping a rally going (as Colorado witnessed from Boston) with two outs would have made their RBI total virtually the same------but Prince only hit .220 thus he was 18 RBI's behind. Yes RBI's can mean little but if you look deeper than HR's which the voting public does you would notice that Prince had 29 solo HR's vs 18 for Holliday thus meaning Prince had 21 HR's with runners on vs Holliday's 18. Are 11 more solo shots that important? So of the 21 HR's Prince hit with runners on he had 90 RBI's And of the 18 HR's Holliday hit with runners on he had 119 RBI's So 29 RBI's more with 3 fewer HR's so that kind of negates the 11 solo HR advantage for Prince. Hollday was more productive with runners on than Prince if you look at it closer. It's strange that people get ripped for looking at RBI's as a stat when you look closer it does tell a story.

Way to go Prince on winning this very strange award. Great year but to have the fans say you are better than Jr, Chipper, Reyes and Pujols. What is strange imo is the nation knows Prince partly because of his name recognition and Prince disses his dad and doesn't want him involved with his family. Unfortunately since the nation is well award of Prince along with Scott Boras when Prince is 27 he is going to be demanding above ARod money. Prince will be able to get a 5 yr deal for 150 mil range and get a bigger deal when he's 32. When 50 HR's with 119 RBI's beats 36 HR's and 137 RBI's a small market team is in trouble. Prince's 11 extra solo shots over Holliday is weighed very heavily by the voting public. How much does it add to his future contract is what hurts Milwaukee.

homer I understand your take that ba with risp is not the get all but when comparing that stat btwn players tells more than btwn having no one on and runners on. For example if Prince would have hit what Hawpe hit: 2 out with risp ...........AB,H, 2B, 3B, HR, RBI,BB, K, BA, bapop, sops+ Hawpe: 69, 26, 7, 0, 5, 49, 19, 16, .377, .438, 220 Prince: 50, 11, 3, 0, 1, 15, 18, 10, .220, .256, 108 Prince knocked in a run per ab 30% Hawpe knocked in a run per ab 71% If Prince would have hit at a .377 clip he would have had 8 more hits with 11 more RBI's plus keeping the inning alive for possible more runs. If Prince would have knocked in runs at a 71% clip while hitting only .220 he would have knocked in 20 more runs. 2 games difference? Yes and we are comparing an MVP candidate to Brad Hawpe who got little fanfare but is in the World Series because I believe his 66 rbi's with 2 outs risp made the difference in at least one game. Plain and simple if our best player had hit like Brad Hawpe the Brewers might still be playing like Hawpe's team is.

joepepsi interesting take: Here are some numbers: ..........................era, runs, earned runs, dif, wins/loss Colorado in wins: 2.93, 289, 272, 17, 90 Colorado in loss: 6.14, 469, 434, 35, 73 Milwaukee in wins: 2.51, 233, 214, 19, 83 Milwaukee in loss: 6.64, 543, 499 , 44, 79 So my brilliant observation is if you allow less runs you have a better chance of winning! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif The Brewers allowed 74 more runs in 6 more games with 44 unearned runs allowed. 9 more unearned runs in losses so how much did that effect the team? 2 wins? Why so many unearned runs in losses? Why such a higher era when you have more unearned runs?

Wow that is a great stat for relief pitchers. When we hear middle relief is so hard to find Colorado has a bunch of them. Great trade baits I Imagine.

Is there a stat out there displaying the missed double plays which are not errors? How about the times Prince comes off the bag either because of his shortness or afraid of a collision? I heard about the stats that advance runners not by sacrafice. How do we rank there? The little things this team doesn't fare well with I imagine.

So true homer: Let's see where those three were drafted and who the Brewers drafted around there: 1998 7th round pick 210 Matt Holliday: with the 206th pick Milwaukee chose Jason Fox 2000 5th round pick 137 Garrett Atkins: with the 111th pick Milwaukee chose Eric Henderson 2000 11th round pick 317 Brad Hawpe: with the 291st pick Milwaukee chose Brian Nielsen: (4 picks after Hawpe: pick 321 Corey Hart) Nice stud players picked that late. Is that coaching, high altitude, pure luck or something else?

My 10 yr old boy just turned me onto ch 1105 in Milwaukee Time Warner called sportsskool I believe. Tony Gwynn Sr teaches hitting and Jr is the left handed batting demonstrating. A very cool channel giving sports pointers and Tony looks like he knows what he's doing. Check it out.

FTC I agree that "Braun, Fielder, and Weeks are great young hitters. I would say that Tulowitzki, Drew, Young, and Holiday are great young baseball players." The relation I want to make with the Brewers is that Fielder, Braun and Weeks are not great fielders and that Colorado tried it the way we are and decided that fielding was more of a priority while we think fielding will come around. It did with Weeks for awhile until he couldn't make the throws and Prince is adequate at best since his bat is huge but Prince doesn't save the throws partly because he's 5'10" tall and he doesn't want to get run over and his scoops are inconsistant at best. Braun has amazing skills but like Prince is there for the bat. Will the fielding come around or will we have a similar revelation 4-5 yrs from now that Colorado is enjoying now?

I found this interesting relating to the Brewers approach and would like to hear some of your thoughts: From Haudricourt: It's no accident that Colorado improved dramatically in the areas of pitching and defense. Seeing they were getting nowhere trying to out-slug opponents in past seasons, the Rockies made a commitment to change their approach. "There was a point in time we had that discussion internally,' manager Clint Hurdle said. "And I stood by the statement that if you build a good offensive team, you'll send a lot of players to the All-Star Game. If you want to win late and play late, you need to have a team that can pitch and a team that can play defense." I know the Brewers approach to pitching is like Atlanta's was but their approach to hitting is to get a stud hitter and teach them defense. That has been the approach with Prince, Weeks and Braun and appears to be with LaPorta and Munson. Is Hurdle getting too much attention because of this hot streak or is Colorado onto something?

Stats are a wonderful and interesting animal isn't it. I found Brad Hawpe's numbers interesting after being mentioned last night. Brad Hawpe had 66 two out RBI's! Say what you will but that is very impressive imo. Hawpe: ba risp, h/ab, RBI's, ba 2 out risp 2005: .191, 21-110, 23, .292 2006: .230, 35-152, 27, .266 2007: .337, 55-163, 66, .377 Compare this to the Brewers: Prince: .278, 55-198, 35, .220 Braun: .318, 55-173, 37, .333 Hart: .313, 52-166, 35, .322 Weeks: .180, 20-111, 8, .130 Hardy: .216, 33-153, 26, .271 Hall: .250, 38-152, 24, .265 Jenkins: .259, 38-147, 18, .233 Estrada: .266, 41-154, 22, .190 Whichever way you want to look at this what if Prince would have hit .377 with 2 outs risp like Hawpe? Could that have made up the two game difference? Hawpe the #6 hitter knocked in 66 runs with two outs while Braun led the Brewers with 37 in 10 more AB's. Call it abnormal or freakish but if a Brewer would have done what Hawpe did could that have made a 2 game difference? Interesting production by a hitter not mentioned much on the hottest team in baseball.

Terrace it appears the description of clutch is up for debate. The 6 great players I mentioned earlier all hit better with risp which created more runs for their teams if they didn't thus is clutch imo. I will dig into BP for what you suggest for some fun reading but saying there isn't much to it means there isn't a difference in ......Aaron.....Brett.....Carew......Yount......Molitor...Simmons risp: ...321......307.....339..........293........327.........299 none on:.293.......297......316.........277........299........272 these numbers. If Simmons hit .272 with risp he would not have led all catchers in RBI's. How can that be blown off as "there isn't much to it"?

I agree Z is a great hitter but I just thought I would throw that in. 15 pitches the previous inning with the 5,6,7 hitters coming up. Saving Z for game 4 instead of securing the win in game 1. I understand Pinella's thinking but this is one of those decisions Yost would have gotten killed on. Pinella just says his relievers have done well all year and that's that. Maybe maybe not if they lose tonight.

So was Pinella clueless hitting Zambrano in the 6th where he K'd only to take him out after that AB with only 85 pitches thrown. Pinella must be clueless managing!

I don't like much about Philly especially the Eagles and 76's so I am with the fun story of Colorado and to say Francis isn't much of a pitcher you must be unaware of him which is easy since no one pays attention to them.

Are there any stats on non-errors? Not finishing dp? Prince being too short compared to an average firstbaseman? I was at over 40 games this year and watched most all of the away games and the "little things" are not even close to being done. Will they acquire them with experience? Will they figure it out just in time to outplay this market? This off-season hopes are so much higher than two years ago because we see the potential. Now hopefully they don't follow the Bill Hall path next year.

I don't think the Weeks and Prince numbers are horrible grouped together but the K's for Prince are too high and will improve with patience. Check out these numbers: .........BA ahead of count/BA behind the count Prince: .356/.206 Braun: .337, .250 JJ: .297/ .222 Weeks: .225/.230 Hart: .338/ .250 Now I know most everyone is better when ahead of the count but looking at Prince's numbers he will benefit the most by knowing the pitchers aren't always going to throw a strike. No complaints about Prince's walks but his K's will get better the more he gets ahead of the count.

The future is very bright but these numbers need to get better to help our pitchers: errors: Braun: 26 Fielder: 14 Hardy: 13 Weeks: 13 and W/K's Braun: 29/110 Fielder: 90/121 Hardy: 40/73 Weeks: 78/116 With maturity both of those stats and their productive outs and working the pitcher should all get better. The all or nothing approach needs to be tweaked with two strikes.

I agree with Todd Snider: They say 3 percent of the people use 5 to 6 percent of their brain 97 percent use 3 percent and the rest goes down the drain I'll never know which one I am but I'll bet you my last dime 99 percent think we're 3 percent 100 percent of the time 64 percent of all the world's statistics are made up right there on the spot 82.4 percent of people believe 'em whether they're accurate statistics or not I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt I need another double shot of something 90 proof I got too much to think about Too much to think about Too much to figure out Stuck between hope and doubt It's too much to think about They say 92 percent of everything you learned in school was just ******** you'll never need 84 percent of everything you got you bought to satisfy your greed Because 90 percent of the world's population links possessions to success Even though 80 percent of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population Drinks to an alarming excess More money, more stress It's too much to think about Too much to figure out Stuck between hope and doubt It's too much to think about Pick it now 84 percent of all statisticians truly hate their jobs They say the average bank robber lives within say about 20 miles of the bank that he robs There's this little bank not far from here I've been watching now for a while Lately all I can think about's how bad I wanna go out in style And it's too much to think about Too much to figure out Stuck between hope and doubt It's too much to think about That's right It's too much to think about Amen It's too much to think about

Did you write the book of hope? And do you have faith in the pennent race If Ned tells you so? Do you believe in advancing runners And will Coco get another save And can you teach me where the strike zone is?

"Dave Pinto showed a study years ago that said all but like 20 players in history hit within 5% of their expected total in "clutch" situations" ......Aaron.....Brett.....Carew......Yount......Molitor...Simmons risp: ...321......307.....339..........293........327.........299 none on:.293.......297......316.........277........299........272 Here are the players who came to mind as pretty good clutch hitters who I mentioned previously and how they did with risp and with no one on. Aaron 9.56% Brett: 6.73% Carew: 7.28% Yount: 5.78% Molitor: 9.36% Simmons 9.93% What does "5% of expected" mean? These players all hit over 5% better in clutch situations so is it determining what "expected" means or is it wrong since of the 9 players I checked only the HOF catchers Bench, Fisk and Carter did not excel in clutch situations so 67% of them did. Please explain if I am missing what "expected" means.

Ned respects Ted so much and believes in this way of playing. So why can't they or is it why don't they? You hear young so much but if Ned is teaching this why is it not happening. The success of the young players makes them to want to swing hard at everything instead of placing the ball specifically with 2 strikes. Will the players ever attempt to play ABC?

Ted Simmons said he learned baseball right away from a gentleman who simplified it ABC: The first guy gets a double the next guy hits it to the right side moving the runner to third and the the third guy hits the ball to the outfield. One run two outs right? But what if the attack to RF gets a hit and what if the outfield shot is a hit. We just saw a team that Simba played on and executed that perfectly. Does that make us worse or that we need to learn or is that impossible with this group?