paul253

the pick would have been top 10 protected if the Pirates would have signed their pick last year, but because they didn't, the Mets have to pay the price? To me this is a no-brainer and the Mets should only have to give up a 2nd roundpick Yes because that's how the rules work. The Brewers should have had a first round pick for losing the best pitcher in the game at the time but because the Yankees signed Mark Texiera too they ended up with a second round pick and lost out on Mike Trout. Just because the Mets find a guy that they like doesn't mean they should be able to skirt the rules. Boo Hoo.

Yeah as long as it is actual gold and not mustard yellow I think I'll like them. I saw a college hockey game the other day with Notre Dame wearing actual gold jerseys and they looked fine.

It seems like every year they make fewer and fewer opening day tickets available unless you are willing to buy a multigame package.

Gamel has absolutely no trade value and never will unless he establishes himself as an every day player. There may be a team like Seattle or Houston that might give him a chance because what do they have to lose but even so you'd be lucky to get a AAA reliever for him. I think he stays with us until we eventually release him or let him walk in FA. I think Aoki did a fine job once he moved into the leadoff spot but I'm hoping Schafer is able to claim that role in 2014.

That's a legitimate strategy, and I don't think it involves any greater amount of luck vs. planning than drafting does I do think it was luck....or at the very least extremely good timing. A lot of pieces fell together at exactly the right time for us to be able to get Segura. Had Milwaukee gone on their hot streak a few weeks earlier Greinke wouldn't have been traded and they'd still have no solution at SS. It was a good move by Melvin to get Segura and to take LA's package over Texas' but that doesn't change the fact that the position had been largely ignored for years and years in the draft and relying on the ability to acquire a high ceiling shortstop prospect in a trade is even more risky than the draft. And I realize Mitch Haniger is listed as a top10 prospect but I just hated that pick. The very next player taken was Joey Gallo who would also have been a top 10 prospect but at a position we have absolutely nothing at right now. I agree with a few others on Taylor though. He had a great first year and I'm really excited to follow him. Victor Roache as well. If he can come back from that wrist injury all the way he may end up being a steal.

I think the projections are based entirely on who we have now and is supplemented with players in the minors. Even though we all knew Fielder would be gone he was still projected to first basemen now. I don't think anyone actually thinks Weeks will be our 3rd basemen but there are no prospects anywhere at third base and they have to put someone there. As far as the list itself. It's hard to complain with the pitching we now have, but years of neglecting positions like 3rd base and shortstop have really left the infield looking completely barren. We kind of lucked out the the Angels made Segura available because without him we'd have major, major issues at shortstop right now. And does this organization even have a player that could be considered a "prospect" at 3rd base? They addressed catcher last draft with Clint Coulter. Now I'd really love to see a high ceiling SS or 3B taken early.

The Brewers system lacks depth and high ceiling players. And most of the impact prospects are pitchers. Like I said, who are they going to make an offer with? Scooter Gennett? Hunter Morris? Khris Davis? Seattle isn't going to trade Hernandez for a bunch of guys who project to be platoon players or average major leaguers.

Yes. The one guy. I knew from the Corey Hart thread that you weren't in favor of trading him but this statement is absurd. You are seriously overestimating Corey Hart's value. I can think of at least 4 guys on the Detroit Tigers alone I'd trade him for. The team most likely to get him should he become available this season is the Brewers. Sorry, forgot to add that part. The Brewers farm system is still in the lower third of the league. I don't see how you can possibly believe this. Do you think the Mariners are going to trade one of the 3 best pitchers in baseball for a package built around Wily Peralta and Scooter Gennett? There are any number of teams that could blow any Brewer offer out of the water if they wanted to, especially the Rangers. As far a Gallardo goes I think the development of the Brewers starters over the next two years will determine what happens to him. I like the options we have coming up but we still seem to be lacking the #1 and #2 potentials. If multiple prospects have success I think we can allow Gallardo to walk with a QO. If not we are going to have to extend him again.

Felix Hernandez is probably the one player I'd trade Hart to acquire at mid-season. The one guy? The Mariners would laugh at us with that offer, even if we included Gomez. I think either Hultzen, Walker or Paxton would a tremendous get for one year of Corey Hart.

You either try to win or you don't, sitting in between is how you kill your franchise. Yes but you also have to be realistic about it. Of course you try to win every year but a team like the Brewers has to go about it much differently than a team like the Yankees or the Angels. This wouldn't even be a discussion if the Brewers had the same resources as the Yankees or Angels but since they don't we have to talk about what to do with Hart. If we always try to win right now we don't trade Greinke last season. Would we be better off had we not traded Greinke? Very, very doubtful considering the Brewers went on an extreme hot streak after the trade and still missed the playoffs. So not only would we still have missed the playoffs last season but we'd also be without both Greinke and Segura/Pena/Hellweg right now with nothing but a mid 30's draft pick to show for it. By being realistic about your situation and trading Greinke we lowered our chances of winning for that season but improved them greatly for 2013 and beyond. That's what we need to with Hart. We need to be realistic about our situation. I've already shown how much more important pitching has been to the Brewer's success recently than offense has. So regardless of whether or not we have Hart or Gamel playing first base, the fact is success in 2013 is going to rely much more on the rotation and the bullpen than on the offense. If you trade Hart now, maybe you slightly lower your chances in 2013 but just like the Greinke trade you significantly improve them for 2014 and beyond. If you don't get a fair deal for him then don't trade him. Nobody has ever suggested you trade him just for the sake of trading him. But he has value and teams want him. We'd get something good in return and even if it's someone who won't be ready until 2014 I'd be ok with that because I think 2014 is really going to be the year when this franchise is built for sustained success.

I just think that the Brewers are blowing a golden opportunity with Corey Hart. Right now there are so many if's heading into 2013 that I think you need almost everything to go right for them to be a playoff contender. The rotation. The bullpen. Shortstop. Health. We are set up alright for the near future, with Segura, Lucroy, Braun, Weeks, Ramirez, and so on and we do have a lot of options with starting pitching. But our system is still relatively weak and lacks depth and high ceiling prospects. And our payroll has been about as high as it can be for the past few years. By dealing Hart not only could you get a cheap, controllable player who could conceivably contribute for at least 6 years, but you also save a ton of money. I don't want them to sign Hart to a long term deal but if they are going to do it they should do it now. Don't wait til the last minute to decide what to do. Actually come up with a long term plan for first base instead of just winging it. I think the only options should be trade him now or sign him long term. I don't like the idea of offering him a QO and accepting only a compensation round pick for him if he leaves when you could get such a better return in a trade now.

Were they phony offers? Essentially yes. The offers made to Fielder, Greinke and Sabathia were all blown away by other clubs, just as I suspect Melvin knew they'd be. He HAD to make them offer of some kind, if anything just to say he did. But I'm sure deep down he knew they'd never accept his offer. In the odd chance any of those deals had been accepted other moves could have been made to offset the cost. Obviously had Fielder taken the offer no way Ramirez would have been signed. And if Greinke took the offer Hart would probably be gone.

Just because Mark A. stretches the payroll every now and then doesn't mean he can do it every year. If he could then it wouldn't be "stretching the payroll". At some point he's going to have to come down a little. Beside, the money isn't necessarily the only thing that people consider when deciding whether or not they think Hart should be extended. I think I listed 3 or 4 other reasons, including capable in house replacements, his age, and the return we could get for him.

I think the Brewers need to be careful because they have a lot of money invested in a small number of players. That's really what has happened them this offseason. Not saying they'd give Edwin Jackson 4 years at $15 million a year but they haven't even really been able to address their bullpen other than Gorzelany. I'd be ok trading Hart for either another high upside arm or a young minor league third basemen who can replace Ramirez in a year or two. Third base is yet another desolate position in the minor leagues. I also don't think Hart is a good future investment given his age and the fact we have a couple of capable looking replacements. The Indians got a steal for Choo and the Brewers should be looking for that kind of deal with Hart. Overall I think pretty much everyone will agree that 2013's success will depend heavily on the young guys like Rogers, Fiers, and Peralta, the bullpen, and guys like Segura and Gomez being able to hold their own. While I don't think we should necessarily give up on 2013 already, I think that we are set up better for long term success than we have been in the past and I'd like to see them continue to go in that direction by trading Hart.

I think Texas would be a good trade partner. If you want pitching they have it (Grimm or Buckel would be nice targets). If you want hitting they have it (I'd ask for Gallo, Martin or Odor). Most likely some sort of combination. Buckel and Odor would be good but I'd take a combo of any of the above names.

After years of having a terrible system and FINALLY getting back on track a little, I'd be very disappointed if they traded more prospects for a starting pitcher. We go with the young rotation this year (Rogers, Peralta, Fiers) and have more in the upper levels in the system to fall back on (Thornburg, Burgos, Nelson, Hellweg, Pena). We still need to vastly improve our hitting prospects though I like what they did last draft with Colter and Roach. I think this year you just go with the young guys and see what you have. You're going to have to do that eventually anway. At worst you have a down year and make other plans next offseason. Best case is most of these guys show they are capable of being ML starters and are a HUGE boon to the franchise by providing cheap starting pitching for years to come.

I'm glad this move is finally being done and I hope they continue to use the name "Big East". Football members have destroyed this conference. The most ironic thing is that had the original Big East schools remained together and expanded with certain current members, the football conference would probably be a top 4 conference. A "Big East" with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Miami, Rutgers, UConn, Cincinnati, Louisville, West Virginia, South Florida and Temple/Villanova would be a better football conference than the ACC. But basketball wise I see these 7 teams joining with the likes of Xavier, Butler, Creighton, and maybe a few others. The tv deal should be ok as they have some huge markets (NYC, Chicago, Philly, DC) and it might even help recruiting.

Marcum wouldn't be bad on a one year deal but I'm sure KC will offer him at least 2 years.

It's not just one year of hart though. Until the first game of next season you have to factor in the comp pick. Isn't this what we thought with Shaun Marcum though? Now he is walking for nothing. If Hart has an injury plagued year or even a down year it's not a given that we will be willing to offer him a one year deal worth $14 million or whatever it will be. The Choo deals helps Milwaukee. If someone asks about Hart Melvin can say "look Cleveland got Trevor Bauer for Sin Soo Choo so you'd better be willing to pay up". Is there anyone here who wouldn't have traded Hart for Bauer? That is the kind of deal to look for and as has been stated before, it only takes one GM willing to make the deal.

If you can get Trevor Brauer for Sin Soo Choo I'd be really curious as to what we could get for Hart. I'd offer him to Seattle for one of their 3 stud pitching prospects. Their offense if really, really hurting.

So I don't see all the bad years you were referencing and if roster stays static, I would project an overall dropoff of offense next year. I don't think we will see a drop off from catcher. Remember Lucroy was even hurt for awhile last season. I also don't think we'll see a drop off in RF with Aoki. But even if we do we go from 1st in runs to what.......4th? 5th? Still good enough if the pitching holds up. All the bad years I was referencing had everything to do with pitching. It shows that no matter how good your offense is, if you have terrible pitching your team isn't going anywhere. That's why I don't think it'd be a terrible idea to trade Corey Hart for a young pitcher. Even with a slight dropoff in runs scored a good rotation and a good bullpen can get you into the playoffs.

why would they be planning or thinking about trading Corey Hart to make room for Gamel? This again is where the entire trade Hart reasoning is lost. Nobody has EVER suggested trading Hart to make room for Gamel. We say trade Hart because 1) He's expensive 2) He's only got a year left on his contract 3) His "prime" is coming to an end 4) He has pretty decent trade value and you could probably get an arm with #2 or #3 potential (which is the biggest reason) and 5) we have guys who can replace him at the position and it's obvious that Gamel has yet to even come close to playing a full season in the Majors This is because he never had the chance to play a full season in the majors. He never really had much of an injury history in the minors. And for god's sake he tore his ACL on a hustle play. That doesn't exactly scream injury plagued to me. It's not like, say, Mark Rogers' shoulder. I'd pay the extra 2-4 million per year for 3 years You think Hart is only going to cost an extra 2-4 million a year? How much do you think Mat Gamel makes? $8 million? Now onto all the references to me as Prince that's not even close to what I said: Paul believes Gamel clearly won't come that close to Hart's production Untrue. I said he probably won't match Hart's overall production but nowhere did I say "not that close" or "clearly". Hart has never been on OBP guy and Gamel seems to be able to take walks so Gamel's OBP may top Hart's. Hart also doesn't hit much for average and I think Gamel could match him there too. I don't think Gamel will ever hit 30 home runs though and overall he probably won't be as good as an offensive player but that doesn't mean I think he'll be horrible and won't come close to Hart. Paul has stated in a reply that Gamel doesn't need to produce Hart type numbers to make the move worth it, I said that I don't think the Brewers offense will take that big of a hit without Hart because others had bad years and if they improve the productivity drop from Hart to Gamel could more than be made up. Whether or not the move is "worth it" is based entirely on who they get in return. He's also said that we shouldn't count on many of our young starting pitching prospect to make it in the majors even though they have shown success in the Majors already and not all of them have to pan out. Again not even close to what I said. This was in reference to Hunter Morris and the "he's just a prospect" attitude. I asked why it was that we are allowed to count on all these young pitchers but can't count on positional prospects. The success they've all had is very limited. Fiers started off amazing but really came back down to earth later on in the year. Rogers and Peralta had 12 combined starts last year. Not exactly a long track record to go off of (especially Rogers who's limited ML stats are much, much better than his minor league stats). I'm as high on them as the next guy but they are far from certain. The young pitching is much more important to how the 2013 season goes than Corey Hart in my opinion. As we have seen plenty of times in the past few seasons you can have all the offense in the world but without the pitching it means nothing. I'll take my chances with one of the top 3 offenses in the NL, and count on the Brewers young pitching at least for the next 3 years. So the "if" of Rogers remaining healthy and Rogers, Fiers, and Peralta repeating their late season success over the course of an entire year is a risk you're willing to take but you won't take the risk that Weeks won't have such a bad year or that Gamel will come back healthy from his torn ACL? But more to the point. The Brewers have had a top 5 offense in terms of runs each of the last 4 years and 5 out of the last 6 years. They made the playoffs twice. What was the difference in those two years? How about the team ERA? 2012: Runs rank (1) ERA rank (13) *2011: Runs (5) ERA (7) 2010: Runs (4) ERA (14) 2009: Runs (3) ERA (15) *2008: Runs (7) ERA (2) 2007: Runs (5) ERA (9) *playoff years It seems fairly clear to me that success comes more from pitching than from the offense. The 2 years they made the playoffs were the only two years their team ERA was in the top half of the league. As I said, I don't see that big a drop in offensive ranking with Hart being replaced by Gamel, Morris, or whoever else we have. But I do think it's still way too early to call a rotation of Gallardo/Fiers/Estrada/Peralta/Rogers a top 8 rotation. Getting another high upside arm and spending the money elsewhere, I think, will do more for the Brewers long term success than resigning Corey Hart.

Yeah right, Gamel is horrible so there is plenty to debate. The guy tore his ACL running into the wall trying to catch a foul ball. He was holding his own just fine before then. I think "horrible" is a bit harsh.

Hart is pretty easily replaceable at first base. Above average hitting first basemen literally grow on trees. Yeah we should just resign him to a multimillion dollar deal. And we can't lose Gomez either because his defense is amazing and he looks like he may have turned a corner last season. Lets sign him to a multiyear multimillion deal too. And Aoki? Good defense and did an awesome job in the leadoff spot. He deserves a long term deal as well. Axford will probably rebound from that terrible year last year. We'd better lock him into a long term deal as well. Segura has some time but eventually we'll need to lock him into a long term deal. Then once Ramirez and Weeks' contracts run out we'll resign them because both are well above average offensively. We have Schafer and Morris and Davis and Gennett but these guys are all just prospects and prospects usually don't turn out anyway. We should trade them all while they still have value. Resources are unlimited anyway aren't they? I mean, we are pursuing all the big time free agents this offseason and will be able to afford to do so next offseason as well I'm sure. Sorry but I had to get that out of my system: 2014 salaries: Ramirez $16 million Braun $10 million Weeks $11 million Gallardo $11.25 million Lucroy $2 million Add in say $12 million for Hart and you have $62 million invested in 6 guys. Let's assume that the 2014 is somewhere around $100 million payroll and it leaves about about $38 million for the remaining 19 guys on your 25 man roster. Doable I guess but it sure doesn't leave you a lot of room for error. And you'd better hope you stay healthy (at least 3 of your regular 8 position players will be in the early 30's). I just don't feel as though the people who make comments like the one above understand the other side's position. With all else being equal yeah we'd love Hart to be around until his production drops off. But thats not how it works. The Brewers resources are limited. They just are. And with the economics of baseball unless Mark Cuban buys the Brewers their resources always will be limited. This offseason is the perfect example (so far at least) of how our lack of funds is hindering what we do. We haven't even been able to sign a left handed reliever yet because the better ones are too expensive. Corey Hart has had a good run in Milwaukee. No doubt. But he is in his 30's. He's expensive. We have a 1B who just won the MVP award in AA and another who was your starter until he tore his ACL last season (and did nothing to lose the job before that). Hunter Morris or Mat Gamel may not hit you 30 homeruns. But they might be very productive players at a 1/10th of the cost. And that savings could allow you to upgrade elsewhere.

I used to always be high on prospects and turning over the roster, but now I realize that that was foolish. Hart wants to stay, is willing to take a below market deal, and is very good at 1st base. It's quite likely that a 3-year extension would be beneficial for both And yet we are supposed to rely on all these young rookie pitchers, some of whom have serious injury histories themselves? And let's face it. A below market deal is still $10-$13 million a year for probably three years. That's about $28-$37 million less the Brewers would have to spend elsewhere. Nobody is saying Corey Hart isn't a good player or that Mat Gamel, Hunter Morris or anyone else will immediately put up those numbers. But as has been stated time and time again, Milwaukee is not a franchise that can afford to offer multiyear, multimillion deals to all of its players. Ramirez, Weeks, Braun, and Gallardo aren't going anywhere anytime soon and all are commanding fairly decent sized contracts. The only reason Hart's name is being thrown out is because only year left on his contract. Milwaukee is already looking like they are holding back because of financial limitations. What would happen next offseason when Braun, Ramirez and Weeks are making a combined $37 million dollars and you give Hart, say, $12 million a year? That's literally half on payroll on 4 guys. Then add in Gallardo's $11 million and that's $60 million tied up in 5 guys. That's not something the Brewers can do.