BrewerFan

I was 100% with ya until the "Looks like Loretta, only BETTER." C'mon. He's been an extremely valuable player. A nice utility player who can hit for a decent average...I don't think he's a career .295/.360 hitter and finished with almost 1800 hits. It's a lot to expect that or more from this kid. Hopefully he can continue to contribute and hopefully he's a utility guy for the next 5-6 years we've got him under team control. I'm not expecting him to be a regular who hits near .300 for 15 years.

Yeah, but Guerrero said a game. Now it's been a 3-4. The fact he's not on the even 7 day IL should tell you enough. They are uber cautious with their prospects...so imagine how they're treating the future of the franchise.

I'm not hanging it on Kraft, it was Clifford. But there was a play earlier in the game, Heath ran a comeback route. Came out of the break, the DB was about a yard behind him and on his back hip. The ball was inside a bit. If he sits and waits, looks to me like it's going to get broken up or it's a tough contested catch. It was with exactly 1:00 left in the 1st Q. Health works back to the ball. He used his body to shield the ball, came back to the QB about a yard inside and a yard back to the QB. I'm not saying that's a play I expect rookies to make, but when they do, it stands out. The pick was on Clifford...but the really good TEs and WRers make the game easier for the QB. Kraft DIDN'T use his body to shield the DB and didn't come back for it and Tycen Andeson took the ball away. It's not that it's Kraft's fault, it's just the type of things I'm looking for to see where Kraft's development is. It would have just been a really impressive play if Kraft could have worked back and used his body more...but again, I wouldn't put it at as a negative play for Kraft, just the potential to be a really positive play.

Yes...but that's NOT Turang's ceiling. This is the strangest argument I've ever seen. How did their ceiling go from 3-3 to now 4-2 is realistic? Is it because in less than a WEEKS worth of games...it's actually entirely possible that literally ANY team in the sport could win 6 in a row or that baseball is prone to incredibly fluky variations over short sample sizes(which is why Turang setting the HR record or going 81-0 is not the same as 6-0). You're confusing "ceiling" with likely outcomes or even better than likely outcomes. That's not what it means. Ceiling means the BEST possible range of reasonable outcomes. 81 straight games would be...unreasonable given literally nobody has EVER done it. It's SIX GAMES!!! LOL...of course it's not the most likely outcome. It's still the ceiling. This Brewers team's ceiling is World Series Champs....undisputed ceiling of this team. I think 6-0 with Burnes, Woody, Peralta, Miley going in 4 and then Houser the other two vs a rookie pitcher and then Max Scherzer...who we've faced twice this season, beaten twice 9-0(5 ERs allowed) and 3-2(2 ERs). I'll take 3-3 and be happy about it. I won't cry over 2-4 or dance circles if they go 4-2 I won't be dancing a jig. The ceiling though...is objectively speaking, 6-0.

I think he actually does. It's 6 games...our ceiling is definitely 6-0. Now if you were asking Game1 of the season what our ceiling was, if someone said 162-0, then I think you'd be right, but sweeping two three game series....though unlikely, is clearly their ceiling. And 0-6 is their floor. This one is pretty straight forward!

"So you're saying Gasser will make everyone forget about Burnes and Woodruff." Yeah...how ridiculous! I know you are, but what am I!

I've done this about 3 or 4 times now. I can explain it...helping you comprehend what you read...

I just said yesterday this is why I say outta the game threads, and off Brewers Twitter...and then tonight🤦🏽‍♂️

And I actually think it'll open wider...

Really? I thought you asked how we can win a WS in the future. I don't believe you limited it to Burnes and Woodruff as YOU'RE the one who's written this team off and already declared them done after one series in the post-season. I shouldn't say you're the "only one," I don't think anyone else has. Jopal may be in the chat. I've finally utilized the ignore user feature when people just continue to conflate arguments or create these nonsensical strawman arguments to make their points(which is probably the way to go here, but you're the wall I'm currently banging my head into for whatever reason).

The ONLY person still bringing up Ethan Small... For context though(and I'm sure you'll come away from this claiming I've anointed Small the next Koufax)...who was the biggest Ethan Small comp? Rich Hill https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hillri01.shtml So sure...MAYBE Small is one of those pitchers that helps us. He's not one anyone BUT you has mentioned, but to assuage your obsession...

I feel like you struggle with reading comprehension. I don't feel that way. YOU feel that way. I've watched Baseball long enough to know if you get in the playoffs and get hot, you can win. I LITERALLY said in a reply to you, "I THINK THIS TEAM CAN WIN." You read that as "just say you don't think they will win during this era." The fact that I think it's possible to win in this era but that I don't think losing Burnes and Woodruff is a permanent death sentence to the Brewers is a concept you're not able to fully comprehend, isn't it? I'm sorry about that. I went to great lengths trying to explain this to you.

LOL....

WHO? Who is making that up? PLEASE cite the person who said Gasser will "make us forget about Burnes and Woodruff?" He's been cited as a #3 or back of the rotation pitcher(though a top 100, so ranked roughly the same as Burnes and Woodruff were coming up). What purpose do these absurd, intellectually dishonest replies get anyone? The answer is the same now as it was in 2017 when we traded for Yelich, signed Cain, NEARLY signed Darvish(reportedly made the largest offer to him). The difference then was the Brewers weren't widely respected for their ability to develop pitching. No. I don't agree. I don't know. If Chourio is the player he looks like, and Quero and the Brewers keep developing pitchers like they have, I think they've got a much wider window moving forward than they do now. Remember that NLCS? Who were our starters? We lost in 7 games. Wade Miley, Gio Gonzalez and then piecing together pitchers to get through the game. Woodruff and Burnes were basically long relievers. And what I AM betting on is that among ALL the pitchers they've got and the pitchers they'll invariably sign and select and LIKELY acquire in a trade, I think you'll be able to put together another VERY good staff that may not be built exactly the same. Maybe it has one ace who's better than Burnes or Woodruff in Misiorowski(certainly has better pure stuff at a younger point as prospects) and then we won't have the 2nd ace, but rather we'll have a couple of really good #3's like Peralta, Ashby, Gasser, Rodriguez. Or maybe it'll be Brock Porter and Owen White. What I feel confident is that the Brewers are going to be able to maintain an elite defense, run prevention with Chourio, Frelick, Wiemer, Mitchell, Quero, Turang, Black, Wilken, Pratt, Bitonti, Boeve, Baez...and Yelich, while hitting a helluva lot better than they have(Monastario could be in there as could another dozen young players like Guilarte) and one of the better team at developing pitching in baseball will continue to do so while naming some of the pitchers we've already got with elite stuff. Maybe Knoth with his plus-plus CB becomes the ace and Misiorowski doesn't. What I'm certain of...is nobody has talked about "forgetting," Woodruff or Burnes, but maybe consider the team that's developed a LOT of pitching in recent years won't just forget how to do it moving forward. Also consider that Josh Hader was arguably the 3rd best prospect at the time of that trade and Devin Williams appeared to be on bust when Stearns took over and developed the infrastructure they have no. Not to mention, they drafted, then got Drew Rassmussen to the big leagues and traded from a position of STRENGTH... We've become one of the best teams at identifying pitching and developing it. I'd hope we could agree on that. We've also had a major organizational shift that put those 6 top 60 prospects in our system with several in the big leagues. So I'm left here wondering, why people believe the era of the Brewers being competitive ends with Burnes and Woodruff? Why that means the end of the Brewers when we've got probably the most exciting young prospect the Brewers have EVER had, and one of the best arms in Baseball in AA?

It's been answered. You didn't like the answer.

I don't think he has a plus or even close to a double plus FB anymore though. When he came up, he would throw upper 90s up and then that change. Now he's 94-95 and it's certainly good enough, but I'm also looking at what we've just developed in Uribe, Payamps and Peguero and...as special as I think Williams Change is, that'd make it hard for me to pay him.

Dude...you'd have traded Burnes and Woodruff in 2018 when they were in the top 100 for a veteran rental. At least then though there would have been far more players on the market with fewer playoff spots.

ALL of them hit? Gee...I was just hoping a couple of them would, but that'd be great if ALL of them hit! Of course I did include several pitchers who are pitching great right now, but...sure.

Yeah, but the Brewers have been pretty good at finding pitching. I also don't know that adding Judge and Ohtani would have gotten us to the World Series...if those two players were on the market and we could take on their salaries. I DO know if you're trading those top 5 prospects, then it really doesn't matter if you do find the next Burnes or Woodruff(and you likely just traded the most likely ace in Misiorowski away) because you're going to be pretty bad. I think the plan should be pretty simple. Develop players. And I think we're doing that better now than we ever have. I think this team is fun and as always, getting into the playoffs gives you a chance, but if you really wanted a plan to build a WS Contender, it'd be on the back of franchise cornerstone type players like Chourio, Frelick, Quero and then the return you get for Burnes and then I'd imagine in a year or two for Contreras, you try and fill in. I think we've established we've got a pretty good plan. We've gotten by without Woodruff for most of this year and Burnes hasn't been ace like for a good chunk of it. We've cobbled together a rotation with Rea, Teheran, smart signings like Miley and a deep, talented BP. And we're attacking the pitching by going after volume. Knoth, Letson, a bunch of prep arms we drafted to go with the arms in the upper levels and more projectable LA pitchers. I think there's a pretty clear path to field a more talented team in 3-4 years than we have right now. And I still think this team COULD win.

Oh...and they won't have ANY pitching in the future? They developed Burnes and Woodruff and now that's it. It's OVA! We're just gonna rotate utility men and put them on the mount? You see that Misiorowski guy? He looks pretty good. Gasser was just one of those top 100 prospects. Pertalta...under contract. Uribe, Payamps, Pegeuro, all under control for the next 4-6 years. Ashby I thought was pretty talented. Carlos Rodriguez. The same group that found pitching in the 4th round from St Marry's and in the 11th round from Miss State also won't be able to find some other pitchers? Like Knoth, or Woesser or...I don't know, any number of arms they have or will draft in the future. I'm thinking the "we won't have ANY pitching," during the Chourio/Quero years may be just a tiny bit premature.

I mean...I think we could have probably added 3-4 bats. Just deal Chourio, Quero, Misiorowski, Black, Frelick. Baez(you're probably not getting full value for him, but just add him). And I'm sure there are teams that would have pounced on that type of stupidity. Probably could have gotten Robert Jr and Jiminez for that package. Hell, the Cards would probably love that and would have give up Arrenado and Goldschmidt. Then you stack everyone else back up and I'm guessing Boston would have traded Turner if you gave up Gasser, Rodriguez(just all of them, Carlos the CF, RF), Yophery, Adams. Ashby isn't helping now. So Boston gives you Turner and maybe Yoshida? I love the game threads! It feels like even during a winning streak, you can always squeeze some negative in there!

Yeah...those guys are pretty good. That's why they're highly rated. So pretty good chance the Brewers will be good when all those guys come up...in addition to all the guys who are already up and the guys who are up behind them.

I saw him as 4-star as well with 'Bama, UGA, FSU, Miami, Michigan and about 10 real blue bloods having offered him. I definitely think there's an immediate boost to a recruits status if they declare for Alabama or Georgia. I've seen people actually provide evidence of players getting boosts. Maybe those players just happened to get a boost over the previous period of time for whatever reason, but it feels a lot like the Yankees and prospects. How much did we hear about Jasson Dominguez being the next Bo or whoever? As for the coaches, Fickel might have to win one to equal what Barry did. Barry took the program from bottom of the B1G to a top ~15 program in the Nation when Fickell took over. The Metz era hurt them(and cost Chryst) but we were still probably one of the 15-20 most reliably good programs in the Country. I'll take a lot to top Barry, but I'm shocked at how UW has grown into this cool destination SO quickly. I really feel like we can be similar to what Oklahoma has been the last 10 years.

Yup. Agreed on all of that. I said in the other thread, I think Heath may have made the team on that run blocking play in the 3rd Quarter IIRC where he drove the guy out of bounds. That is the type of thing to make the Packers coaches fall in love with him. Jean-Charles, we've head about him for 2 camps, but this was the first time I saw it. I think we're really set at CB. 6-7 deep there. That might be the toughest spot to get a guy through waivers. Carlson was just so pure on those FGs and then the PATs looked much different. Like a QB or IFer short-arming the ball. Aiming almost. I think that's fixable. I feel better with him after seeing him, but you can't miss multiple PATs. I think Brenton Cox Jr may have also put the final nail in Jackson Carman's coffin. He made him look bad. Again, this is how a young team that plays quite a few starters should look, but there were still some outstanding individual performances and...I think you hit them all. Musgraves was also just burning guys in the passing games, but each QB missed him. Kraft looked solid...though I'd like to see him fight harder for that pass that turned into a pick.

About as fun of a Pre-season game as I've seen in a long time. It reflected the youth and excitement around the team. QB-Both Love and Clifford looked good. Love was sharp. Very clean. One mistake came trying to force the ball to Watson vs Cover2. That's just a play that comes with experience. I would assume he was supposed to try and look the safety off and if the Safety doesn't bit, come back to Reed who was running a deep crosser and was wide open for what would have been a 20-30 yard gain depending on where he put it. Also missed Musgrave on a throw he HAS to make(that guy really needs to stay healthy as he looks like such a difference maker). Clifford looked like everything you want from a backup QB. He's not a threat to Love unless Love is bad, but he's an athlete, he's got decent size(6'2 222 4.62 40) and he looked decisive. Just lacks the arm strength to throw those longer routes from the opposite hash. But that's why he was a 5th Rd pick. After ONE Pre-season game, he seems to have justified one of the more controversial picks of the Packers draft. No surprises. I think the 2 expected to make the roster make it. RB-Jones caught a nice little ball from Love, got tackled and MLF got him the hell outta there. A pretty disappointing performance from this group as a whole. Goodson, a guy I was high on last year(I think just about every Packers fan was) again just goes down with a stiff breeze. He's a scat back. I'm not sure he runs with more authority than Tyler Ervin. Patrick Taylor is fine. A STer. Emanuel Wilson though...even without that 80 yard TD run, he looked like a dude. 5'11 229 and he showed great vision and balance. Then on the big run after bouncing off a couple guys, their safety has the angle coming downhill and Wilson just outruns the angle. I'd predict we go with 2 RBs again and then call up Taylor, Goodson again, but Wilson may force our hand. Especially with Dillon as FA. WRer-Malik Heath just played outstanding in every facet. The Packers HAVE to love the run blocking as much as snagging a couple of tough balls in the middle of the field knowing the safety was closing on him. But when he ran the CB into the kicking net, then backed off and drew the penalty? That is the type of thing that helps you make a team. Toure-The guy the Packers coaches and FO bring up unsolicited on a regular basis had a ugly play on a KR, but outside of that, he also played about as well as you could ask. Reed went up and showed how tenacious he is in 50/50 situations. Wicks, Heath and Toure look like they've gotta be the obvious favorites behind Watson, Doubs and Reed to make the team. TE-Musgrave only finished with 1 catch on 8 yards, but Love missed him on one, Clifford missed him on another. But he was constantly getting open. Austin Allen- at 6'8 260 was WIDE open with room to run and pick up 20-25 yards on that Packer boot off the outsize zone action and Clifford just missed him. Despite the size, he's not a great inline blocker. I think Big Dawg would be inking a contract to return to Green Bay had Tyler Davis injured himself a week earlier. OL-Really interesting to me that JRJ and Tom both took snaps at Center. Caleb Jones looked good when he was in. Didn't see the injury, so hopefully it's minor...but again, a 6'9 370LB OT gets an ankle injury, is it ever minor? Luke Tenuta who looks like HE could be a nice project who starts paying dividends this year, he went down with what looked like a much more significant injury SOLELY from the look on his face. Rasheed Walker was really lazy on a couple of outsize zones going away from him. He HAS to close down...and while it's tough to beat the 3 tech to the spot, you're blocking down. You have to take him and just move him. That's the WHOLE point of the play. TO OPEN THE CUTBACK LANES. One one big loss the Bengals 97 crossed his face, the Packers got no movement on the right side and IIRC, it was Taylor, he had to cut back and it was a 5-6 yards loss because Walker gave up on the play. There was too much mixing and matching to really tell how Schnieder did or any other individuals for the most part. JRJ looked capable at Center. I think that's a really interesting development. It's clear the Packers are not happy with Myers. Oh, we DID have some Sean Rhyan sightings and he looked good. I believe he and Newman were in the game on the Wilson runs. Offense-Looked about as clean as you could have hoped for week 1 of the Pre-season. Emanuel Wilson, Malik Heath and Sean Clifford did the most IMO to cement or improve their chances to make the team. DEFENSE-- Well, they were flying around. Valentine looks like a dude, Cox Jr looked good. The young DL looked good, particularly Wooden IMO. Enagbare looked good. Slaton showed a lot more burst last night. Ford also looked much better getting into the backfield. Tariq Carpenter was up and down, but in there for 3 quarters. Clearly the Packers wanted to get a long look at him. Secondary-CB looks like it's a deep group. Nixon, Valentin and Ballentine played aggressive vs the run. Some breakdowns, but Joe Barry seemed like he might, could be following through on promises to be more aggressive. Put together more aggressive schemes than we've seen from a Packers defensive unit in a long time for a Pre-season game. The defense is far more set than the offense, so it was more about how the fringe players played and I think those guys did as well as you could have reasonably expected. Safety is a problem, but with the depth we have at CB, I'm still hoping we see Douglas playing some safety. Nixon also looks like the nickel at this point. Especially with Stokes fighting back from a pretty significant lower leg injury. Overall, this was what you hope you see from such a young team with so many guys fighting for playing time, for roster spots. Doesn't really tell me much about what this team will look like during a 17 game schedule, but they played fast, they bounced back from mistakes and Love showed about as much as you could have hoped.