naivin

Ummmm...its not. Its subjective in both cases, thus the 100%. I was asked earlier today to provide concrete reasons I like Ned. I did that (BTW, those are subjective too). MLB is not an IROC race. Until all rosters are created equally, things like W-L record are rather useless in judgung one manager against another.

? this is news to me. I know Stetter was just called up, but do you see Turnbow just being cut? Just my theory. He is clearly the odd man out in that bullpen, and has made no secret about the fact he is unhappy about it, so yeah, I think its possible. Likely? Not sure if I'd go that far, but certainly a possibility.

Completely agree (I also agree with the two names you point out BTW). Judging managers is 100% subjective. That's why threads like this get ridiculous and frustrating, but its also why they're kinda fun.

Pot, kettle, black. I've given you those. Now its your turn, please provide those really good concrete reasons why he is not the man for the job, minus the blanket cliches like 'he leaves pitchers in too long' because that and the other ones like 'he chokes under pressure' or 'is a jerk in his post-games' are debatable as well.

I've already done that... I think he is a good manager. His moves don't always turn out the way he'd like, but I defy anyone to show me anyone for which that is not the case. I see a team that plays very hard, understands what is expected of them, and do their best to deliver it every night. That shows me they have nothing but respect for Ned. I see a guy who has one goal in mind this year, and that's to win. With all the young players the past several years, that (rightfully) may not always have been the case. But, with that in mind, I also see a team that has developed and gotten progressively better over time. Not sure what more people could ask for. Give him the tools to succeed, and I don't doubt he will. Until perhaps this season, he has not really (or at least not consistently) had those tools. The fact that they have done as well as they have, last year in particular, should be a testament to his abilities, not an indictment. One more thing I will add...I'm gonna go ahead and trust Doug Melvin as he obviously sees some of the same things I do. Barring a rash of injuries or something, if the Brewers aren't in contention right down to the wire this year, I will be the first one in line calling for a change (I do reserve the right to change my mind if the bullpen turns out to be a complete disaster, which clearly remains a possibility.). Obviously I don't expect that to happen. Unfortunately, it seems the people who don't like Ned think that if the repeat "those who support Ned can't come up with any reasons why" enough times, that will somehow make it true. It is easy to utilize the benefit of hindsight to criticize moves that Ned makes or things that he does that cost the Brewers wins on a day in and day out basis. Well, by my count, last season his moves and decisions cost the Brewers 83 losses. Something that hasn't happened around here for 15 years prior. See that's the thing, If you are going to blame him for losses, you also have to give credit for wins. BTW, saying I don't think he's the right man for the job, is not providing reasons.

Any way you wanna slice it...although I would still argue the Cubs had the pitching advantage, as well as the defense advantage (Unfortunatley you won't allow me to use actual pitching related statistics to support that. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif But, just for fun, the Cubs ranked ahead of the Brewers in hits allowed, BAA, runs, ERA, K's), but for the sake of this discussion I will gladly assume your position. My main point - is that the Cubs were simply better than the Brewers. Not saying they were the '27 Yankees, but they were better. As far as I can tell, NDOGG seems to think that because we had Fielder and Braun we should have walked into the playoffs, but Ned Yost tripped them on the way. That narrow view simply ignores the facts.

With Gwynn eligible on Saturday, and Gallardo likley on Sunday, not to mention the Weaver signing, this move does make it seem as if something could be up. Then again, given some of the short starts lately, this may well just be an extra arm. I have thought all along, and this week has done nothing to change my mind that Gross will be gone upon Cameron's return. Perhaps some combination of Gross, Bush, and Turnbow for...something.

Unfortunately, you can't play what if with just one game of out a 162 game schedule. The fact is, CoCo didn't get that out, and if you want to hypothetically take that one out of the loss column, you have to be willing to hypothetically take one out of the win column as well, and be willing to conduct the same exercise for the Cubs. In 162 games, you generally get the record you deserve.

I generally agree. I guess the Turnbow thing got me. The fact that he failed to realize or recognize that his role in the current bullpen is essentially that of the invisible man, tells me he is simply not doing his homework. Couple that with the Torres comment which makes me think he is not fully aware of the presence of Riske and Shouse in particular, but also Mota. I just got the sense listening to him that he is basing his comments largely on last season and is largely unaware that the bullpen has been completely revamped to the point where Turnbow is pretty much the last option. I'm also not sure what he's basing the Torres comments on either. Its early (that allpies to his hypothesizing too), but while he has worked a bit, it is nothing that projects to anything beyond what he has done in his time in Pittsburgh when he had great success.

First off, the combination of talent and experience matters, but more importantly, you demonstrate yet again, an unwillingness/inability to address the pitching. How can you claim the Cubs were not better when their pitching was so obviously better?

I heard Steve Stone on the Score today saying he thought the Cubs would pretty much run away with the Central. His primary reason..."The Brewers bullpen will end up being atrocious primarily because of Turnbow and Gagne, and [paraphrase] they will severly overwork Solomon Torres.[/paraphrase]" I generally think he is very good, but this comment made me think his new duties with the White Sox are severly limiting his time and abilities as a baseball analyst. If he has doubts about Gagne, that's cool, I think most do (even though he has actually looked pretty good). I do have to wonder if he even has any idea what Turnbow's role has been reduced to, and the fact that he is basically the most insignificant member of that bullpen, along with the possibility that he may no longer even be a Brewer by the end of the weekend. The comment about Torres is hilarious as well since Weurtz, Howery, Wood, and Marmol all have just as many or more appearances as Torres.

Comparing Derosa and Soriano to Hardy and Hart, doesn't do a whole lot to help your argument. That's a wash at best. If you want to talk about a lack of response, your unwillingness to acknowledge the appreciable differences between the Cubs and Brewers where pitching and defense are concerned, provides a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. BTW, I don't recall ever saying that the Cubs were head and shoulders better, but I do appreciate the words in my mouth. It was somewhat close, but the Cubs were just better. They definitely lived in the same town, just not on the same street.

Newsflash: Prince is a fat guy. Prince always has been a fat guy, and Prince always will be a fat guy. Sloppy Fat...what does that even mean? He looks like the same fat guy he was last year, and will be next year. He's not hitting, and I can ssure you it has nothing to do with steak, or chicken or cheese or ranch dressing. I find it absolutely comical that people conclude that Prince is not hitting because he changed his diet. Then to what do you attribute Braun not hitting? Soriano? Adam Dunn? Ryan Howard?

I believe in morla victories in a long season like baseball, and i think the Brewers secured one last night. They put some things together against a very good pitcher in the 9th, they looked loose and relaxed, and I think they carry it with them into today and beyond.

NDOG doesn't seem willing to do that. His argument appears to be based solely on 2 guys out of 50 - at the plate, because when you throw in the the other 48 players and both sides of the ball, the argument falls apart, and the Brewers ability to make the playoffs is no longer as simple as replacing Ned Yost.

I'll grant you that the two best position players were playing for the Brewers. However, when their counterparts are Derrik Lee and Aramis Ramirez, the difference is not all that dramatic. If you wanna play that game, you also have to compare Mnchkins to Soriano, Weeks to DeRosa, it works both ways. That point is minimal though. Offesnively teh Brewers were a bit better. Defensively they were worse. The real difference was the pitching. Zambrano obviously, the year Lilly had, Rich Hill was basically good, even Jason Marquis had a decent year, at least by his standards. Compare that to the likes of some Sheets, Suppan, Gallardo, Capuano, Vargas, Bush...Its really not close. When you throw in the bullpens, it only gets worse. The Brewers didn't blow anything. They just didn't have the horses. As far as this year goes, I actually think the Brewers have a grest shot - for the exact reason stated above, only in the reverse. I think the The Brewers may have the surperior pitching this year. The way I see it, the two teams are pretty evenly matched, and whichever is best able to avoid injury will win the division.

Having seen nearly all of Ryan's attempts at hitting this young season, I respectfully disagree. Can only help him.

And the impact on the win column was what? Since this guy is/was the problem with the Brewers, I would think his absence would be a positive.

Well, then you don't know what to tell me, because entering the season last year, no way was winning the goal to the extent it was this year. Not even close. Did the Brewers good start, coupled with the Cubs bad start change the stakes? You bet, but don't confuse a 6 week period at the beginning of the season with the Brewers being better than the Cubs. The Cubs were absolutely the better team last year. They won because they had a roster full of veteran players, appreciably better starting pitching, and (as a result) a more dependable bullpen. The Brewers had a roster full of talented inexperienced kids, unproductive veterans, terrible defense, unreliable starting pitching, and (as a result) an unrelieble bullpen. Again the fact that the Brewers finished with virtually the same record should be a testament to Ned Yost, not an indictment. Is Lou Pinellia a good manager?

He didn't crack what so ever. He managed with the big picture in mind as he always has. BTW, they didn't miss the playoffs because of any of that stuff with St. Louis. The missed the playoofs because the Cubs were a better team. As far as NDOGG saying he shouldn't get points for winning being his goal. I never said he should. I am simply pointing out that in contrast to previous years, where winning wasn't necessarily as important - again, big picture, it is pretty much the thing that matters this season. The past few years have obviously been a development plan/period from Mark Attanasio on down, and Ned and the team were a part of that. This year however, that stakes have changed. Its playoffs or bust, and barring a bunch of injuries or something, if they don't make it, or I suppose at least come within the final weekend of making it, Ned will likely be gone. He has also been asked to walk a pretty delicate line, than if he were in Chicago, or Boston or New York. The objectives in those places are very simple. Ned on the other hand has been asked to try to win games, but also keep an eye on the overall plan/future. While that may result in decreased pressure overall, it also may make the day to day management/decision making a bit tougher.

I told a dyed in the wool Cub fan friend of mine after opening day that I thought the division could come down to which team is better able to avoid injury... Brewers 1 Cubs 0 BTW, before anyone calls jinx, my acknowledging the potential for a jinx, off-sets any possible jinx. That, and the fact that what I post on an internet message board has nothing to do with players getting hurt.

This is pretty much how I feel as well, and why I feel the need to argue about it/defend Yost. In the end I just get the sense its coming from people desperate for the Brewers to be good, or better than they actually are, and looking for easy answers -- something along the lines of, "If Ned wasn't the Manager, we'd be in the playoffs." Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. I think he is a good manager. His moves don't always turn out the way he'd like, but I defy anyone to show me anyone for which that is not the case. I see a team that plays very hard, understands what is expected of them, and do their best to deliver it every night. That shows me they have nothing but respect for Ned. I see a guy who has one goal in mind this year, and that's to win. With all the young players the past several years, that (rightfully) may not always have been the case. But, with that in mind, I also see a team that has developed and gotten progressively better over time. Not sure what more people could ask for. Give him the tools to succeed, and I don't doubt he will. Until perhaps this season, he has not really (or at least not consistently) had those tools. The fact that they have done as well as they have, last year in particular, should be a testament to his abilities, not an indictment.

While it is important to remember this is the Cubs we're talking about, it does sound as if it is just a calf strain... General manager Jim Hendry said he believed Soriano would be back before the end of his stint on the disabled list. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-080416-chicago-cubs-alfonso-soriano,1,5724967.story Forunately, I am not a betting man.

By my count he did that once, was corrected and hasn't done it since. Seems to me he generally drops his head faster than he drops his bat and heads for first.

Right, at the Brewers current pace (with our best hitters yet to get untracked), the Brewers would be something like 27-17. Definitely calls for a change at the top. Under what circumstances would you say that should take place in a month to a month and a half?. Certainly not anything we have seen this year, so what are you talking about? Comments like yours clearly demonstrate a complete lack of objectivity where Yost is concerned.