splitterpfj

Hi J Brew- As a matter of fact, Gossage is the next in the Hall of Fame Trial series. I've sent the article to Brian, a new article just went up on the home page yesterday, so that one will be a few days. Glad to see you're interested in Goose!

It's amazing how Rose affects people, I've gotten emails from several friends who read this article, no one is halfway on this one! A couple have told me they love Pete no matter what, put him in NOW, most have gone on a rant about what a creep he is.

Of course Pete Rose shold be in the Hall of Fame. Without Rose in it, the Hall means @#%$. Pete Rose was a great baseball player...he had passion for the game...he gave his life to the game. The way he played the game plus his stats is a no brainer. PUT pete in the Hall or close the doors... A fair point, but the answer is easy for me, Pete broke a rule which he knew would bring him permanent ineligibility, the Hall does not allow players who are ineligible on the ballot. Convince the Board of Directors at the Hall of Fame to change that rule and maybe you've got a shot, that would send Pete before the Veteran's Committee, which may actually be the best way to resolve this one way or the other. I'd love to see that in a way, I have no idea who would be on the committee when and if Pete got there, but those players seem to be as split on Rose as the public is. Bob Feller hates the man, Johnny Bench isn't far behind, while Mike Schmidt and Joe Morgan are big supporters.

Hello NY, thanks for your input. I still say no.

Yes, RobertR, it is another topic, I'll do an article on Jackson if you'd like.

As long as Pete is banned, he can't get in. I don't see Bud Selig reinstating him during his tenure, Pete will have to hope for a fresh look from the next commish. If Pete ever gets a shot at the Hall, he'll be in the hands of the Veteran's Committee, which I think would be very interesting.

Great point Jamie, there are all kinds of deadbeats in the Hall already. This isn't about personality in that context though, this is a man who clearly crossed a line that had been firmly established, with the penalty spelled out. Once that has happened, you're out. If you want back in, state your case and be a man about it, don't tell the world you got a raw deal. No one owes Pete anything, he agreed to a lifetime ban, with a chance for reinstatement, he did so because he knew he was busted. I backed him at that time, I continued to do so for several years, but all of that time Pete kept insisting he hadn't bet on baseball, always with that sneer on his face. The minute he changed course and confessed, in an effort to sell books, on the week of the Hall election, I knew this guy a total snake with zero depth and zero character. Pete broke THE RULE as far as baseball is concerned, then, when I think most fans would have forgiven him quickly and cheered his Hall induction, he carried himself as a martyr for years on end, lying the whole way. Pete wants clemency now? He acted like he knew more than anyone who ever lived, he whined as though the game owed him something and he had been unjustly singled out. YOU DID IT PETE, and you knew the penalty, the fear of which is why you denied it in the first place. Mr Rose, I do not believe you're sorry, I do not even believe you're sorry you got caught. I believe you're sorry you can't have what you want. Tough. Thanks for the memories Pete, I'd still love to have your autograph, but you can no longer come to the party.

I shared a lot more of my personal feelings on this one than I have on any other player so far. As I said, Pete Rose really reached me when I was a kid, he was great to watch, and was one of my favorite players. I really want him in the Hall, but personally I just can't overlook his arrogance and deception. I hope you enjoyed the article, keep the opinions coming, I have a feeling this is going to be a great thread. -Todd

I'm a former employee of Madison Newspapers Inc, the place is owned by Lee Enterprises. The Cap Times and the State Journal share circulation staffs, customer service, press, etc, but have seperate editorial staffs. It's a unique situation, I was in that industry for ten years, in three cities, Madison was much different than anything else I saw.

Just got EZ Supporter, thanks for the site Brian and staff! -Todd

Sutter is definitely within striking distance, considering this is a down year.

Buster Olney says he voted for five players this year, Rice was first on his list.

With the ballot announced, and the columns for and against some of these guys starting to show up, I'm giving some of these a bump.

There are no big guns among the first-timers, maybe Hawk gets in this year?

A friend of mine showed me this stat today, which I found interesting. In his career, on turf, Rose had 2,133 hits in 7,043 AB's for an average of .302854. On grass, he was 2,123 for 7,010, an average of .302853.

Hi Patrick- One good "sticking around long enough guy" would be Don Sutton who was good enough, long enough to top 300 wins without ever being totally dominant. There are lots to pick from, I believe I'll offer up an elected Hall member next. -Todd

Kiner is a great example of a guy who got in based on what might be considered half a great career. He was way before my time, I don't know if he was thought of as a good guy or not, but that goes a long way for this type of player. Don't forget, the writers are people too (at least I'm pretty sure) they obviously allow their personal feelings to affect their voting. Koufax had four no-hitters and had an arthritic elbow.......he got in with ease. Kirby Puckett was on a pace for 3000 hits, and lost sight in one eye..........made it with no problem. Dick Allen was thought of much like Gary Sheffield is today, and got nowhere near the invisible dividing line of 500 homers. If a guy has an image problem (deserved or not) he had better get 3000 hits or 500 homers. I don't ever want some BCS type formula to decide who gets into the Hall of Fame, but it does seem very wrong that a guy like Puckett can walk in easily, but a guy like Allen really isn't given serious consideration.

This doesn't take the different eras into account, which is very significant in this case, but here are the numbers S Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI SB AVE OPS 9.5 103 182 41 2 40 130 9 .295 .933 Belle 10.7 102 171 30 7 33 104 12 .292 .912 Allen I do think the two have many similarities, but Allen was far more dominant in his time.

LSBrewer, your point about ten years of dominance is interesting. While I think Allen was far more dominant at his peak, I think it's safe to say Ron Santo was the best 3B in the game from 1961-1970 - he's not in either. Santo's Hall of Fame Trial thread is in the statistical analysis forum if you'd like to take a look.

Wow Greg, thanks so much. Excellent post too Greg, Allen was totally dominant, in comparison to the control group, it was a no contest. -Todd

I don't know what happened, but there's a problem with the table that shows the stat comparisons. That "3" that's floating there is the average steals per season for the control group. This one was a lot of fun, what a unique guy.

RoCo, I do think this will get ugly in the coming years, particularly in the cases of Palmeiro, Bonds and Sheffield. I chose McGwire for the article because he is nearing eligibility, and because I thought his performance before Congress was absolutely pathetic. I suspect he'll be elected to the Hall, and without empirical evidence I suppose that's the way it should be, but I don't like it. I think a lot of people would give him a break if he just admitted using this stuff to overcome the injuries that had started to wreck his career. I never would have questioned his Hall credentials if he had answered either way when he had the chance. The fact that he totally dodged the question left me feeling he had something to hide.

SoCal, outstanding post............I agree completely.

Hi Guys- Glad people are enjoying these! Ashburn and Allen are definitely coming, I hadn't considered Stephens, but why not? Rich Gossage has been the most requested player I haven't gotten to yet, he'll be here soon. Ashburn is a great example of a whole new set of guys I want to bring in, those already elected who perhaps should not have been.

Until he comes clean, one way or the other, NO, NO, NO.