TheCrew07

T-Rats will have a delayed start, we had a big thunderstorm roll through around 5:30 local time but sun is back out now. The game is expected to start around 7:30 PM.

If by "about" you mean vastly superior then you are correct. They competed in a much tougher division, in a much tougher league, which a much smaller payroll, have been much more consistent, won more games, and are still loaded with impact pitching in the minors. The major difference has been that one team consistently targets young pitching via trade, the other organization doesn't, neither has been good at the top of the draft. The other major difference is that TB continues to draft truly projectable impact HS pitching through out the first 10 rounds. I agree, but since that's never been an organizational strength, why was the only way to "solve" that problem from your perspective trading for 3 very short duration MLB pitchers? I don't think it's fair to make the leap that since the Brewers stink at identifying legitimate pitching prospects in the draft that the success rate would have been the same acquiring the better pitching prospects in the game at AA or AAA. Those players have just about completed their development cycle and are nearly MLB ready. I'm still somewhat amused that people believe a young pitcher like Capellan was an impact pitcher, we were dumping an ineffective former closer and everyone knew it, why would we get back exciting talent in return? Why is the defense the primary reason for their pitcher's success? Wouldn't better talent be the actual cause? Not only that they've been significantly better pitching against much tougher competition and line-ups that feature the DH. The pitching isn't even close as it looks on paper. What about other players that could have been targeted? Why were the options limited to either Greinke/Marcum/Sabathia or nothing? Nothing including the aging FAs that have been signed to "solidify" the rotation? What if we had acquired Marcum for Overbay in 2005, Buccholz for Hardy and Niemann for Hart prior to 2009? Would our MLB positional roster have been significantly changed? I would say absolutely not, but our pitching fortunes sure would have been and we would have still had the prospects to deal for other positions of need. I've used the checkers/chess analogy many times, xisxisxis brought it back and used it in one of the organization building threads earlier. I think that's still the single best analogy about this situation... it's not just as black and white as we have a hole at position X so how do we acquire best MLB player Y to plug it? We should be trying to acquire the maximum of talent bought well below market rates. That requires making trades in unison to accomplish those goals, you can trade an MLB piece and yet still bring back another piece which will plug that hole. Instead we've paid a premium in prospects as well as salary to target the most expensive solutions possible. Did many of you listen to Melvin's interview about the state of the franchise yesterday? He's still saying the exact things he was in 2006, and then in 2008, and then in 2010, and now in 2013. He's clearly not going to change, he's still hanging his hat on how many homegrown pitchers other organizations have in their rotation or how long outlier pitchers took to develop. He completely and conveniently ignores the reality of the Brewer's market and financial situation in relation to the rest of the league. He's still talking about the team playing well enough that he can make deadline moves. His only minor acknowledgement about his role in this mess was talking about being "caught in the middle" if you don't win. Isn't that exactly where we've been since 2007? The Brewers haven't been terrible but they haven't had enough talent to legitimately compete for a WS, how is Milwaukee's ongoing situation anything other than being stuck in the middle? Finally for those who think MiLB development is the root of the problem, one of Melvin's cronies Reid Nichols has been in charge of that from the start, DM brought him with from TX. He's been drawing venom from some of us on the MiLB forum much longer than Melvin has. So again, if you aren't targeting the right young pitchers in the draft, aren't signing them internationally, aren't doing a good job developing the talent, and then aren't looking to acquire it via trade, what exactly is left? Shouldn't it now be obvious why Melvin has continually chosen middling FAs and short duration impact talent? Those were the 2 options that he limited himself to. He could have traded for young pitching but didn't, he didn't have to bring Nichols with him on the development side, he could have went have a different direction from the start. He was correct to retain Jack Z but didn't have to hire Seid, and he could have looked outside the organization when the draft started to stagnate some. DM seems to be a genuinely good guy, he seems to care about his players and he's fiercely loyal, both of which are qualities that appeal to me on a personal level. However, those positive qualities don't excuse his limited strategic abilities nor his adherence to philosophies from the GM playbook of the 80s and 90s. He's not a forward thinker, he's reactionary, and he's not the GM of a market that can afford to be reactionary.

Based on what measure exactly? 2 playoff appearances? 1 playoff series win? What's the bar here for maximization? My bar is a WS, which clearly hasn't happened. Wait, so trading 1 or 2 of our MLB hitters for young impact pitchers automatically means we would have never been better than .500? Where's any factual, empirical, or historical evidence to support that notion? He signed his extension prior to Greinke and Marcum being acquired, what does Braun's contract have to do with either of those moves? Again that's just hyperbole. Actually the problem is exactly that short term solutions were consistently targeted, the roster wasn't turned over, nor was the prospect well replenished. Every successive move reduced the organization's talent base until the Greinke trade. That's precisely how we arrived at this point, I'm not sure how those facts can even be debated. A shrinking talent base is the exact scenario which leads to major rebuild being the only possible outcome. Maybe you didn't see a season like this coming so soon which would be surprising given 2009 and 2010, maybe you aren't sold on the concept of young impact pitching. Regardless, Melvin knew the organization was short of impact pitching when he was hired, Melvin hired Seid after Jack Z moved on which hasn't proven to be a boon to the farm system, he's spent the majority of the teams budget on the MLB payroll leaving little room to sign international players, he knew his best talent evaluators were being cherry picked by other organizations and instead of looking to remedy the situation by acquiring some young talent he continued with the status quo.

Well it appears that he's not much of prospect or he's injured (as he's never pitched a full season), either way it's disappointing.

Prospect Hot Sheet Chat With Ben Badler

Those that have read my posts will know exactly where I stand on what Melvin talked about in this interview, that's all I'm gonna say.

Prospect Hot Sheet (May 31): Wil Myers Heats Up NOT SO HOT

I was hoping for some nuggets of wisdom in this one, it's definitely worth a listen but I was slightly disappointed as I always get excited when people I respect talk Brewer prospects because I'm hoping to learn something I didn't already know. Jim just reiterated many of the points that the majority posters on this forum have made in the past.

Chiefs rally to top Rattlers 11-5 Peoria erases 5-1 Wisconsin lead with ten runs over final four innings By Chris Mehring / Wisconsin Timber Rattlers GRAND CHUTE, WI - The Wisconsin Timber Rattlers homecoming was going great on Friday night at Time Warner Cable Field at Fox Cities Stadium. The team had a 5-1 lead through five innings against the Peoria Chiefs in their first home game since May 16. But, the Chiefs scored ten runs over the final four innings to defeat the Rattlers 11-5. Wisconsin (23-27) had an opportunity to take the lead in the bottom of the second against Chiefs starter Kyle Helisek. Victor Roache reached on catcher's interference and Adam Giacalone doubled to left to put runners on second and third with no outs. Helisek came back to strike out the next two batters and get a grounder to second to keep the game scoreless. The Chiefs (28-24) took a 1-0 lead in the top of the third. Adam Ehrlich doubled to start the inning, but was still at second with two outs. Jacob Wilson put Peoria in front with an RBI single that got through the infield. The Rattlers had plenty of chances in the bottom of the fourth on cashed in for four runs to take the lead. Michael Reed started the inning with a single. Roache followed with a double down the third base line to score Reed with the tying run. Roache moved up to third on a grounder. Then, Parker Berberet was walked intentionally to set up a lefty-lefty match-up between Helisek and Max Walla. Walla foiled the strategy with a single to right-center to score Roache and give the Rattlers a 2-1 lead. Later in the fourth, Wisconsin had the bases loaded with two outs. Orlando Arcia singled to right-center to drive in two more runs for a 4-1 lead. Roache padded the Rattlers lead to 5-1 with a solo home run in the bottom of the fifth inning. The high fly to left carried out of the ballpark for Roache's sixth homer of the season. Damien Magnifico, Wisconsin's starting pitcher, struck out six and allowed one run over five innings. He was in line for his sixth win of the season. The Chiefs chipped away at the Wisconsin lead after Magnifico left the game. They scored a pair of unearned runs against Leonard Lorenzo in the top of the sixth inning. A single and an error put runners at second and third with one out. Charlie Tilson drove in the first run with a sacrifice fly. Ehrlich singled with two outs to drive in the second run of the frame. Peoria had runners at second and third with one out in the top of the seventh. Patrick Wisdom grounded too short and the runner at second was tagged out in a rundown, but the runner from third scored to cut the Rattlers lead to one run. Rodolfo Fernandez came on in the top of the eighth inning and could not hold off the Chiefs. A leadoff walk, an infield single, and a sacrifice bunt put runners at second and third for the Chiefs. Breyvic Valera had a 1-2 count against him and sent a slow roller to third. The throw to the plate was off target and the tying run scored. Fernandez got the second out and had Wilson 0-2. Valera stole second on a 1-2 pitch. Then, Wilson singled to drive in two runs and the Chiefs were up 7-5. Peoria put the game away with four unearned runs in the top of the ninth. There were two outs and nobody on for the Chiefs in the top of the ninth inning when an error allowed Kelly to reach again and extend the inning. Tilson followed with a single. Then, Ehrlich singled to drive in Kelly. Valera doubled to drive in Tilson. Ildemaro Vargas capped the inning with a two-run single and the Chiefs were up 11-5. Roache went 2-for-2 with two runs, two RBI, and reached base four times in the game. He also took first on catcher's interference in the second and was hit by a pitch in the seventh inning. Game two of the series is Saturday night. Austin Blaski (2-1, 1.67) is the scheduled starting pitcher for the Timber Rattlers. Joe Cuda (2-3, 5.80) is set to start for the Chiefs. Game time is 6:35pm. Saturday is a Fly Away Saturday from Funjet Vacations and Fox World Travel. One lucky fan will win airfare for two from Funjet Vacations and Fox World Travel at this game as part of Fly Away Saturday. Stick around after the game for the first FOX 11 fireworks show of the season. If you can't make it out to the stadium, tune in for the broadcast on AM1280, WNAM or timberrattlers.com starting with the Miller Lite Pregame Show at 6:15pm. Saturday's game is also available to subscribers of MiLB.TV. HOME RUN: WIS: Victor Roache (6th, 0 on in 5th inning off Joe Scanio, 1 out) WP: Thomas Lee (1-0) LP: Rodolfo Fernandez (1-2) TIME: 3:04 ATTN: 4,665 A Tale of Two Games – Postgame post for May 31, 2013 Wisconsin Boxscore I have mixed feelings on unearned runs, on one hand, dammit guys, make the easy defensive plays, convert outs into outs. On the other hand, dig in on the mound stop the bleeding, give up 1 unearned run, not 4. 6 of the 11 runs were unearned but when 3-4 hits are strung together after an error I find it very difficult to let the pitcher off the hook. Chris McFarland was back in the line-up tonight so his recent absences don't appear to be injury related unless it's one of those nagging things. Victor Roache had a perfect night at the plate from a boxscore perspective as the DH which Chris noted above. I had unexpected work trips all over NE WI today and of course I didn't set my DVR before leaving home this morning so I wasn't able to watch the game which is probably a good thing because the last 4 innings would have gotten under my skin. Wisconsin Recap Wisconsin Gameday

It's fairly obvious when you watch Coulter that he's miles away from being a serviceable catcher. His only plus asset behind the plate is his arm. Coulter has been discussed on numerous occasions on the MiLB forum.

Robert Stephenson mows 'em down again. Dayton's Stephenson almost unhittable

There's bound to be an aging pitcher or hitter we can spend money on to "shore things up"!

I don't know why I'm laughing, that's probably sadly true if Melvin is still at the helm.

Nine is enough – Postgame post for May 30, 2013

You need to relax my friend, your bitterness just can't be healthy.

BA's take, nothing that MH didn't already post in those other articles. Southern League Franchise May Move To Biloxi

Sorry this took so long, I was distracted by work and other forums here on bf.net, then I accidentally closed my browser wiping out my original post... Wagner & the Rattlers ride big inning to win over Beloit Wisconsin scores seven runs in the third & Wagner allows one run in seven innings By Chris Mehring / Wisconsin Timber Rattlers BELOIT, WI - The Wisconsin Timber Rattlers gave Tyler Wagner a nine run lead on Thursday against the Beloit Snappers at Pohlman Field. Wagner allowed one run over seven solid innings as the Rattlers ended their two-week road trip with a 9-5 win. Michael Reed put the Timber Rattlers (23-26) in front in the first inning. Alfredo Rodriguez drew a walk to start the game. He was at second with two outs. Reed drove a single through the middle of the infield on a 3-2 pitch to drive in Rodriguez for the 1-0 lead. Wisconsin sent eleven men to the plate in the top of the third inning and scored seven runs to take control of the game. Jose Sermo started the inning with a single. Rodriguez singled and Orlando Arcia walked to load the bases with no outs. Tyrone Taylor lined a double off the glove of the Beloit third baseman to drive in Sermo and Rodriguez. Michael Reed followed with a two-run single to drive in Arcia and Taylor for a 5-0 lead. That single by Reed knocked Beloit starting pitcher Dakota Bacus out of the game and the Snappers called on Stu Pudenz to stop the Wisconsin onslaught. Adam Giacalone greeted Pudenz with a double to left-center that drove in Reed for a 6-0 lead. Pudenz got the first out of the inning, but the Timber Rattlers weren't done. Max Walla singled and Chris McFarland walked to load the bases again. Sermo, in his second at bat of the third inning, singled to drive in two more runs for an 8-0 lead. Giacalone added another run with the Wisconsin lead in the top of the fourth inning on a sacrifice fly that scored Arcia. Beloit (31-22) broke through against Wagner in the bottom of the sixth. Ryan Mathews singled and Brett Vertigan doubled with one out. Daniel Robertson knocked in Mathews with a ground out to second to make the score 9-1. That was all Wagner would give up in the game. He struck out four, allowed four hits, and walked none to pick up his fifth win of the season. Beloit scored four runs in the bottom of the ninth on one swing of the bat. Reliver Martin Viramontes gave up a leadoff single and got the next two outs on strikeouts. But, a single and a walk on a 3-2 pitch extended the game to Christopher Bostick. Bostick crushed a 2-2 pitch from Viramontes for a grand slam to make the score 9-5. Viramontes got the next hitter on a strikeout to end the game. Wisconsin went 5-7 with one rainout on their trip through Burlington, Quad Cities, Peoria, and Beloit. The Wisconsin Timber Rattlers return to Time Warner Cable Field at Fox Cities Stadium on Friday to face the Peoria Chiefs at 7:05pm. Damien Magnifico (5-0, 4.15) is the scheduled starting pitcher for the Timber Rattlers. Peoria has not named their starting pitcher for the game at this time. Miller Summer Kickoff at the ballpark on Friday. Miller products will be available for $1 from May 31 through June 7. Friday is also a North Shore Bank Family Night. Kids 12 and under receive a voucher good for a free hotdog and a free soda. There is a postgame fireworks display scheduled and after the fireworks Molina Healthcare presents Kids Run the Bases for children 14 and under. Also, break out your shamrocks and be ready to look for a pot of gold on Friday night for Oshkosh Irish Fest's St. Patty's Day in May. If you can't make it out to the ballpark, there are several ways to catch the action. My NEW32's Sports Showdown will broadcast the game beginning with the pregame show at 6:30pm. Subscribers to MiLB.TV can catch the in-stadium broadcast. The radio broadcast starts on AM1280, WNAM and timberrattlers.com starting with the Miller Lite Pregame Show at 6:45pm. HOME RUN: Christopher Bostick (4th, Grand Slam off Martin Viramontes in the 9th inning, 2 out) WP: Tyler Wagner (5-3) LP: Dakota Bacus (4-2) TIME: 2:26 ATTN: 938 I'm not sure why but this made me laugh, Chris will have a true post game up later. Musical Interlude – May 30, 2013 Wisconsin Boxscore Tyler Wagner have a day... I'm digging him. Some more strike outs would have been nice but I'll take it, gotta love that 12:2 GO:FO ratio for the more statistically orientated out there. MH beat me to the punch on Jose Sermo, I hope that's not injury related. I was only able to listen to the 6th and 7th while I ate lunch so I missed what happened with him. Tyrone Taylor finally had a multi-hit game, good for him, as did Michael Reed and Sermo. Orlando Arcia was 1-3 but he walked twice, he now has more walks (16) than strike outs (15), he's hitting .333 over his last 10 games, and he's only 18 years old in A ball. Hopefully he develops similar to power to his brother. Arcia and Segura could be one heck of a middle infield combination. Yes I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but it's fun to dream in an otherwise dreary MLB season. If scoring 9 runs wasn't enough the boys played clean defense, what a big difference that would make for them in the 2nd half if they keep it rolling. Wisconsin Recap

MH you're a machine. After dealing with the Joe all these years it would stink to get the boot and have another organization get into a brand new facility. Nothing against the Huntsville community but they haven't been very supportive.

And how good were we in 2009, 2010, and 2012 during our "window"? Like we're making the playoffs in 2013? If you believe that David Price (now on the DL with Odorizzi pitching in his place) and Hellickson are both 5+ ERA pitchers than I guess you are correct there is no hope for TB. Oh, except for those guys still in AAA whom I already mentioned. Really? Now we're back to the high draft pick thing despite all the evidence to the contrary? Statements like that are the reason these debates just circulate endlessly as when the facts are misrepresented and twisted without actual evidence, it becomes impossible to have a rational discussion. If you truly believe that statement then you either haven't read all of the posts in this thread, haven't done any research on your own, or are just going to believe what you want to believe regardless. How is TB any different than Milwaukee? Didn't we build our team through high draft picks as well (Fielder, Braun, Weeks vs Longoria, Price, Niemann)? They figured out a new strategy with a different front office right about the same time Jack Z started his tenure in Milwaukee. TB rose up the exact same year in 2008, has been the more consistent franchise, played in a tougher division, and has a better future ahead of them. They've actually been every bit as bad as the Brewers in the 1st round, they've just done much better with impact talent later in the draft.

Maybe it's as simple as this: I don't have problem with people supporting DM and MA, I do understand that there are many who will value playoff appearances and MLB win totals, I'm just not one. I have a particular end game in mind and that's getting the young pitching to match-up with other would be WS opponents. What I do have a problem is those same people who have been supportive of the organization all along complaining about the state of the MLB team or the farm system. Why? Simply because there is no having it both ways. A more in depth explanation: It's not reasonable to trade away an entire wave of prospects for short term solutions and expect to maintain a highly rated farm system. No team is that good at drafting and in the Brewers case it has been continually pointed out how many people were lost from Jack Z's original scouting staff since 2006. Some of our good crosscheckers were pilfered to be Scouting Directors for other organizations, and rightly so, that was and is a good career move for those gentlemen and they earned the opportunity to further their careers. In addition Jack Z took a bunch of people from the scouting dept when he went to Seattle as the GM. Again, not a problem, that's the nature of the business and Jack Z. had earned his opportunity to be a GM, however it is troubling how few posters understood the true impact or even noticed. If we're continually making 1 type of trade, trading prospects for short term solutions which narrows our talent base and thus our competitive MLB window, and then aren't drafting well (which Milwaukee hasn't), and we aren't supplementing our talent internationally, where are the prospects to have a highly regarded farm system going to come from? This season and the state of the farm system are reasonable outcomes of the strategy that has been in place since the Linebrink trade. Eventually the talent well will run dry if nothing is done to replenish it and that's on DM and MA as much as it is on Seid and Nichols. The current state of the organization was the most likely outcome of constantly buying short term solutions. Furthermore, when you continually sign aging players to market contracts you make the payroll top heavy: very few players eating up the majority of the available resources, not only does this limit your financial flexibility in regards to the MLB roster, but also in terms of signing bonuses for domestic draft picks and international players. By spending all of your available budget on the MLB team the ability to add additional impact players to the organization is further narrowed. For example couldn't sign international players because of K-Rod accepting arbitration, signing Ramirez, and so on, there just weren't the funds available plus having to budget for the amateur draft. If you spend all your money at the backend of the development process, on the MLB roster, then it stands to reason you won't have extra money available to spend on the front end. I still maintain that spending on the front end should at least be an equal priority, why wouldn't the Brewers want as robust of a talent base as possible? Especially given that MLB isn't a level playing field and we have no realistic shot at signing the best FAs on the market? We can endlessly debate what should have happened or what didn't happened and why, but the reality of the situation is we are stuck with an unproductive MLB roster and not much behind it in the organization. If you're unhappy with the state of the MLB team, or the state of the organization, where we do go from here? How does it improve? In the short term if you want improvement then you're going to need to be willing to give up a productive and valuable MLB piece like Gomez or Aoki. No one is going to give up a stud pitching prospect for damaged goods, we need to give legit value to get legit value in return. If you aren't willing to trade Gomez or Aoki then how do we realistically improve our situation? Yes I take an exceedingly long-term view of the organization, maybe to a fault. People have said I think that every team can do what TB has done but that's not true, nor have I ever inferred that. What I have said is that if TB can do it, why can't we? Why can't we beat them at their own game since we have greater resources at our disposal? There are a finite number of trades in a given year for young pitching and if you don't jump on them when they present themselves then you're going to be left out in the cold. There's no such thing as setting arbitrary dates, if a deal is available for the talent you seek then you take the deal now, because if you don't someone else will. TB just continually beats every else to the punch, that's why they had Torres, Archer, Odorizzi, and Montgomery in AAA, all relatively high ceiling players which were aquired via trade. They value pitching and never play for a short window, and the strategy continually pays off. With a different front office we could do the same, it wouldn't fix our problems overnight, but in a couple of years it could definitely pay off tremendously. Signing more and/or better international prospects now won't shore up the MLB roster, but it could have if we had started in 2003, and it will help us in 2017 and beyond. If we stockpile impact pitching the rotation and bullpen will take care of itself, then it's just trading excess talent for different positions of need, and young pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball. It took 3 trades over 4 years to make TB's rotation elite, (Kazmir in 2004, Jackson in 2006, and Garza in 2007) but I think with the players we already have on hand we could do it in 2 if the right situations present themselves.

The quality of coaching seems to be hit or miss based on the college program, but just looking at the stats you posted it doesn't appear that he's being pushed to an uncomfortable number of pitches in his starts. If that's the case I think you are correct, it really doesn't matter what year he gets taken, and if he's a 10th rounder this year and improves over the winter and through his senior season then next year he'll have his degree and an improved draft position, which would net him a bigger bonus. It could be a win/win. However if he's being asked to go 120+ pitches in start(s) then I'd say get him out there ASAP as I'd be concerned for the long-term health of his arm. There is also the injury risk to consider, not knowing the player, the program, or his mechanics, you would know better than us if that would be a concern. Honestly if he's continually improving and in a good program I'd be inclined to get that degree if the draft round/bonus money isn't there and take another run at it next year because I believe in having an education to fall back on. It's sort of weird rooting for a kid when you don't know his name and only his back story, but I sincerely hope everything works out for the best for everyone involved! He sounds like an excellent young man and I admire your dedication to helping him along the way.

GM hires the SD, the SD hires the scouts/crosscheckers.

Wisconsin up big in the 7th, currently 9-1, more later. Wisconsin Top of the 3rd Jose Sermo singles on a ground ball to center fielder Brett Vertigan. Alfredo Rodriguez singles on a line drive to center fielder Brett Vertigan. Jose Sermo to 2nd. Orlando Arcia walks. Jose Sermo to 3rd. Alfredo Rodriguez to 2nd. Tyrone Taylor doubles (13) on a line drive to left fielder Ryan Mathews. Jose Sermo scores. Alfredo Rodriguez scores. Orlando Arcia to 3rd. Michael Reed singles on a ground ball to center fielder Brett Vertigan. Orlando Arcia scores. Tyrone Taylor scores. Pitching Change: Stuart Pudenz replaces Dakota Bacus. Adam Giacalone doubles (9) on a line drive to left fielder Ryan Mathews. Michael Reed scores. Parker Berberet flies out to center fielder Brett Vertigan. Max Walla singles on a ground ball to shortstop Daniel Robertson. Adam Giacalone to 3rd. Christopher McFarland walks. Max Walla to 2nd. Jose Sermo singles on a ground ball to left fielder Ryan Mathews. Adam Giacalone scores. Max Walla scores. Christopher McFarland to 3rd. Alfredo Rodriguez grounds into a double play, second baseman Chris Bostick to first baseman Matt Olson. Jose Sermo out at 2nd.

Ariel Pena gets a nice mention. Prospect Notebook: Chris Reed Outduels Archie Bradley

I'm curious where it was posted, said, or inferred that signing international players was a quick fix for anything? Clearly that's not the case. Signing international players is about expanding your talent base which will have long-term affects. Any players we sign this year are best case 3-4 years from helping us in MLB if they turn into super prospects. Realistically the Brewers best hope is that the International draft becomes a reality, then at least they will have a shot at one of the top 10 players. Furthermore the idea of drafting impact players isn't a short-term plan either, after the first round most of those impact players are going to come from HS and need at least 3-4 years development. I'm on record dozens of times stating that I prefer a well rounded minor league system... I don't mind high floor/low ceiling players at all, some of those guys will over achieve and some will work out exactly as expected, however I don't want to be drafting "move quickly through the system" players at the expense of legitimate talent like we did in 2011 with Jungmann and Bradley. TLB brought back that draft discussion thread in the draft forum, look at how many posters wanted other pitchers and how many were vocal about the Jungmann pick from the start. Of those 4 starting pitchers I suggested previously who were drafted after Jungmann, 3 were talked about by multiple posters in that thread. I'm not sure why you continue to argue the whole draft angle, the Brewers have clearly been deficient or our farm system wouldn't be devoid of top end talent, realistically we traded for 2 of the better prospects between AAA and AA in Hellweg and Pena just last year. That was the first trade post Sexson in Melvin's tenure that brought back young pitcher(s) with legit upside. We haven't been trading for young pitching, we haven't been signing it internationally, so if we didn't draft it what else was left? Yes I know, signing that stream of aging, middling, and averagish pitchers to 3+ year deals and trading for temporary solutions which got us to the point we are today. Hooray.